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If SCOTUS overturns marriage equality...

SouthernDemocrat said:
The basic principle of liberty is that your right to live your life the way you choose to do so extends so far as to not impede another individuals ability to do the same.

How does granting legal marriage recognition to same sex couples impact your life and liberty at all?
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How is not being married a violation of SS couple's civil liberties? Can SS couples still have unions? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples take on the financial responsibilities of each partner? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples adopt? YES, with civil unions. Which civil right does a civil union not oblige a SS couple that a marriage does?
 
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cabse5 said:
How is not being married a violation of SS couple's civil liberties? Can SS couples still have unions? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples take on the financial responsibilities of each partner? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples adopt? YES, with civil unions. Which civil right does a civil union not oblige a SS couple that a marriage does?
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A civil union for same sex couples is not equal protection under the law as the courts have consistently ruled now including SCOTUS. Once again, how do gay people being able to get married impact your life at all?
 
cabse5 said:
The ruling on gay marriage for gay marriage advocates was a ruling on the equal protection under the law clause of The Constitution on steroids. You espouse equal protection under the law for gay marriage advocates but you don't espouse equal protection under the law for under-performing students with the grades issue? For non-athletic and majority racial groups with the scholarship issue? For San Diego Charger football players, fans, coaches and owners who can't play, view and work in as nice a digs as Dallas Cowboy Stadium? Where do you draw the line on equal protection under the law?

Why do you draw the line on equal protection under the law if you believe in applying the equal protection under the law clause of The Constitution on steroids with gay marriage? Do you believe the glass ceiling should be broken as a part of equal protection under the law? Do you believe African-Americans deserve reparations via the equal protection under the law clause? If you believe the equal protection under the law clause of The Constitution on steroids should be applied for gay marriage, why not for reparations and glass ceiling breakage?
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There is no fundamental right to not fail. :shrug: So your analogy fails. There IS however a fundamental right to marriage as shown through out 14 Supreme Court cases dating back to 1888. Many of them based on the equal protection clause. Like it or not, SSM is here to stay. There is nothing that SCOTUS can do to change that unless they throw out 128 years of precedent. At which point there will be a reckoning to pay as SCOTUS judges can be impeached.
 
cabse5 said:
How is not being married a violation of SS couple's civil liberties? Can SS couples still have unions? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples take on the financial responsibilities of each partner? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples adopt? YES, with civil unions. Which civil right does a civil union not oblige a SS couple that a marriage does?
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1: Civil Unions do not have the same protections as marriage does across the States. A civil union in California may allow the partner to visit while the other partner is in the hospital. A civil union in Texas may not.

2: The courts have ruled for a long time now that separate but equal is not equal. Trying to say that civil unions is the same as marriage is like saying that a water fountain for whites only and a water fountain for blacks only is equal. Its not.
 
CriticalThought said:
What will happen to my marriage?

This is actually bothering me a great deal. Now that Trump has won he will likely have the opportunity to replace several key Justices and sway the court hard to the right. I could then see a significant challenge to same-sex marriage coming before the court within a few years and Obergefell being overturned. The issue would then likely be left for each state to decide. My state had a Constitutional ban on same-sex marriage and civil unions.

Would my marriage simply not be recognized by my state?
When we adopt children, will their birth certificate not be recognized because it has two dads?
Could the state refuse to acknowledge our adoption?
Will we have to go through power of attorneys and living wills to get some semblance of protection for our family?
Will my life insurance pay out to my husband if I kick the bucket? Would he be allowed to make funeral arrangements for my body?
Will I lose my health insurance since I am under his insurance?
Could my spouse make medical decisions for me if I am incapacitated?
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I don't believe the Court, even with 1-2 Trump appointed justices, will overturn Obergefell. But if they do, it won't last very long.
 
Kal'Stang said:
There is no fundamental right to not fail. :shrug: So your analogy fails. There IS however a fundamental right to marriage as shown through out 14 Supreme Court cases dating back to 1888. Many of them based on the equal protection clause. Like it or not, SSM is here to stay. There is nothing that SCOTUS can do to change that unless they throw out 128 years of precedent. At which point there will be a reckoning to pay as SCOTUS judges can be impeached.
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A right to marriage and a right to government marriage is not the same thing, you know. I also can't see how natural rights(one of the two main concepts used in the constitution for rights) would consider government marriage a right.
 
CriticalThought said:
What will happen to my marriage?

This is actually bothering me a great deal. Now that Trump has won he will likely have the opportunity to replace several key Justices and sway the court hard to the right. I could then see a significant challenge to same-sex marriage coming before the court within a few years and Obergefell being overturned. The issue would then likely be left for each state to decide. My state had a Constitutional ban on same-sex marriage and civil unions.

Would my marriage simply not be recognized by my state?
When we adopt children, will their birth certificate not be recognized because it has two dads?
Could the state refuse to acknowledge our adoption?
Will we have to go through power of attorneys and living wills to get some semblance of protection for our family?
Will my life insurance pay out to my husband if I kick the bucket? Would he be allowed to make funeral arrangements for my body?
Will I lose my health insurance since I am under his insurance?
Could my spouse make medical decisions for me if I am incapacitated?
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Nothing is for sure, but if a Partisan Hack like Scalia could support marriage equality, there is hope whoever Trump picks will as well. Now, if Trump dies, and Pence gets to make the pick. You are 100% screwed.
 
CriticalThought said:
What will happen to my marriage?

This is actually bothering me a great deal. Now that Trump has won he will likely have the opportunity to replace several key Justices and sway the court hard to the right. I could then see a significant challenge to same-sex marriage coming before the court within a few years and Obergefell being overturned. The issue would then likely be left for each state to decide. My state had a Constitutional ban on same-sex marriage and civil unions.

Would my marriage simply not be recognized by my state?
When we adopt children, will their birth certificate not be recognized because it has two dads?
Could the state refuse to acknowledge our adoption?
Will we have to go through power of attorneys and living wills to get some semblance of protection for our family?
Will my life insurance pay out to my husband if I kick the bucket? Would he be allowed to make funeral arrangements for my body?
Will I lose my health insurance since I am under his insurance?
Could my spouse make medical decisions for me if I am incapacitated?
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I think on some issues we will find Trump more of the liberal in line with his lifelong held views.

Here is some of the things Trump had to say.

Sexual orientation is invalid reason for firing workers. (Jun 2016)

After Supreme Court vote, gay marriage is a reality. (Aug 2015)

Tolerate diversity; prosecute hate crimes against gays. (Jul 2000)

I can't see into the future, but I have a suspicion the right will be more mad at Trump than the left. It all depends whether Trump continues with his new views he changed too to run for president as a Republican or reverts to his old lifelong held views. I don't have an answer.
 
cabse5 said:
Neither do gay marriage advocates. And gay marriage is certainly not in The Constitution.
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No, but equal protection under the law is.
 
Anagram said:
Most of Trumps justices on his list haven't though.

That said, I have a hard time believing that they'd overturn Obergefell. Directly overturning a precedent that quickly is, well, unprecedented. And another justice would have to leave anyway since the 5 in the majority are still on the court.
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I don't see them over turning it.
Trump is going to stay away from social policy to a point.

He will stick with economics.
 
CriticalThought said:
What will happen to my marriage?

This is actually bothering me a great deal. Now that Trump has won he will likely have the opportunity to replace several key Justices and sway the court hard to the right. I could then see a significant challenge to same-sex marriage coming before the court within a few years and Obergefell being overturned. The issue would then likely be left for each state to decide. My state had a Constitutional ban on same-sex marriage and civil unions.

Would my marriage simply not be recognized by my state?
When we adopt children, will their birth certificate not be recognized because it has two dads?
Could the state refuse to acknowledge our adoption?
Will we have to go through power of attorneys and living wills to get some semblance of protection for our family?
Will my life insurance pay out to my husband if I kick the bucket? Would he be allowed to make funeral arrangements for my body?
Will I lose my health insurance since I am under his insurance?
Could my spouse make medical decisions for me if I am incapacitated?
Click to expand...

Not to worry they are not going to overturn it, the SC rarely overturns its own rulings. Go on with life, it is all big talk and nothing more.
 
Henrin said:
A right to marriage and a right to government marriage is not the same thing, you know. I also can't see how natural rights(one of the two main concepts used in the constitution for rights) would consider government marriage a right.
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If the government recognizes marriage at all then it must recognize ALL consensual marriages that do not interfere with any other persons Rights. Sorry, thems the breaks.
 
azgreg said:
This plus I'm trying to imagine the lawsuit that would have to be brought up to get there in the first place.
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If states simply refuse to perform and recognize same sex marriages due to seeing a conservative court which might support them if their refusal is challenged without being enforced by the federal government. It is a highly unlikely scenario but still a possible one. It would require the President to refuse to enforce the Obergefell decision. I doubt that even Trump would do that though.


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cabse5 said:
Gay equality doesn't mean gay marriage any more than 'pro football equality' should be Chargers fans being able to see all their home games in Cowboy Stadium in Dallas.
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Stupidest argument in same sex marriage debates is trying to compare marriage to team naming.


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cabse5 said:
Which is why gay rights advocates can't demand marriage..because no one owns marriage.
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They can demand equality in marriage which means no restrictions based on the sex of those wishing to enter.


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cabse5 said:
It's equal protection under the law extrapolated..socialist style. And a very real possibility. And gay marriage is not in The Constitution. That's my biggest beef against gay marriage.
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Marriage isn't in the Constitution. Equal protection is.


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cabse5 said:
How is not being married a violation of SS couple's civil liberties? Can SS couples still have unions? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples take on the financial responsibilities of each partner? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples adopt? YES, with civil unions. Which civil right does a civil union not oblige a SS couple that a marriage does?
Click to expand...

Civil unions do not exist with the same rights, privileges and benefits as marriage. They have a right to enter into marriage regardless of their relative sexes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
CriticalThought said:
What will happen to my marriage?

This is actually bothering me a great deal. Now that Trump has won he will likely have the opportunity to replace several key Justices and sway the court hard to the right. I could then see a significant challenge to same-sex marriage coming before the court within a few years and Obergefell being overturned. The issue would then likely be left for each state to decide. My state had a Constitutional ban on same-sex marriage and civil unions.

Would my marriage simply not be recognized by my state?
When we adopt children, will their birth certificate not be recognized because it has two dads?
Could the state refuse to acknowledge our adoption?
Will we have to go through power of attorneys and living wills to get some semblance of protection for our family?
Will my life insurance pay out to my husband if I kick the bucket? Would he be allowed to make funeral arrangements for my body?
Will I lose my health insurance since I am under his insurance?
Could my spouse make medical decisions for me if I am incapacitated?
Click to expand...


As a straight, conservative white male over 40, I would not worry too much about it, my friend.

Acceptance is growing more and more each day.

There are plenty of people like me that want ANY government out of our bedrooms.

Who you "do the nasty" with is your business, and if you decide to get married, then it is your right to be as miserable as the rest of us.

I would not concern yourself with this issue too much. There are tons of other more pressing issues the powers that be need to tackle.

You are not hurting anyone.
 
Trump will probably support SSM's repeal only to further appease the conservative base. Besides, it's not like he isn't known for his penchant for duplicity.

Have fun liberals; you flew too close to the sun and you wouldn't heed otherwise.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
A civil union for same sex couples is not equal protection under the law as the courts have consistently ruled now including SCOTUS. Once again, how do gay people being able to get married impact your life at all?
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cabse5 said:
How is not being married a violation of SS couple's civil liberties? Can SS couples still have unions? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples take on the financial responsibilities of each partner? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples adopt? YES, with civil unions. Which civil right does a civil union not oblige a SS couple that a marriage does?
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Why don't you answer the question that's bolded? Please use your thinking instead of the thinking of judges who are ideologues but not ideologues to The Constitution.
 
roguenuke said:
Civil unions do not exist with the same rights, privileges and benefits as marriage. They have a right to enter into marriage regardless of their relative sexes.


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Marriage. Ah. The hot button word, hum? This all boils down to being able to be married. Why is that? I'm guessing you want the fed to force everyone to view SS marriage the same as traditional marriage? I've got news. Many are going to ask the fed to stay out of Americans' ability to view and define marriage as they please. I'll always distinguish gay marriage from marriage because they are different and I have a right to make that distinction.
 
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Kal'Stang said:
There is no fundamental right to not fail. :shrug: So your analogy fails. There IS however a fundamental right to marriage as shown through out 14 Supreme Court cases dating back to 1888. Many of them based on the equal protection clause. Like it or not, SSM is here to stay. There is nothing that SCOTUS can do to change that unless they throw out 128 years of precedent. At which point there will be a reckoning to pay as SCOTUS judges can be impeached.
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You don't understand or don't want to understand that gay marriage as stipulated by law is a creation of the courts and that, at any time, if the balance of ideologies or power in the Supreme Court, for example, is changed due to death or retirements these precedents that you refer to that began in 1888 could be null and void.

BTW, the 14th amendment where the equal protection under the law phrase resides became an amendment to The Constitution in 1868. At that time of inception in 1868, it was also acknowledged by the voters of the amendment and the 'makers' of the amendment that the 14th amendment dealt exclusively with permitting former slaves to enjoy American citizenship through the federal government's decree even though certain states were attempting to withhold these citizenship rights from former slaves.

Short story? The Constitution is permanent (unless an amendment). Judges' precedents, like the ones in 1868, for example, are not permanent.
 
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RetiredNSmilin said:
As a straight, conservative white male over 40, I would not worry too much about it, my friend.

Acceptance is growing more and more each day.

There are plenty of people like me that want ANY government out of our bedrooms.

Who you "do the nasty" with is your business, and if you decide to get married, then it is your right to be as miserable as the rest of us.

I would not concern yourself with this issue too much. There are tons of other more pressing issues the powers that be need to tackle.

You are not hurting anyone.
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I am married. We are in the process of adopting two kids from the foster care system who have been stuck in it for 3 years. That is why I asked the specific questions that I did. I am very worried about how this could affect my family as a whole in terms of legal rights and protections. If it were just me and my husband then I think we would be okay, but with so many thinking the "leave it to the states" approach would be wise, it could mean the instant nullification of my marriage in my state. I am not sure what effect that may have in the legal standing of my family.
 
cabse5 said:
How is not being married a violation of SS couple's civil liberties? Can SS couples still have unions? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples take on the financial responsibilities of each partner? YES, with civil unions. Can SS couples adopt? YES, with civil unions. Which civil right does a civil union not oblige a SS couple that a marriage does?
Click to expand...

How is this relevant to my questions? My state, and about 20 other states, have Constitutional bans on civil unions.

I am married. We are in the process of adopting two kids from the foster care system who have been stuck in it for 3 years. That is why I asked the specific questions that I did. I am very worried about how this could affect my family as a whole in terms of legal rights and protections. If it were just me and my husband then I think we would be okay, but with so many thinking the "leave it to the states" approach would be wise, it could mean the instant nullification of my marriage in my state. I am not sure what effect that may have in the legal standing of my family.
 
CriticalThought said:
How is this relevant to my questions? My state, and about 20 other states, have Constitutional bans on civil unions.

I am married. We are in the process of adopting two kids from the foster care system who have been stuck in it for 3 years. That is why I asked the specific questions that I did. I am very worried about how this could affect my family as a whole in terms of legal rights and protections. If it were just me and my husband then I think we would be okay, but with so many thinking the "leave it to the states" approach would be wise, it could mean the instant nullification of my marriage in my state. I am not sure what effect that may have in the legal standing of my family.
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You are answering with a judge's precedent. I'm asking for your ideology. Why is not being married a violation of civil liberties? Can you answer this without saying a judge says it's so?
 
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