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How men are conditioned to think sexual assault is no big deal

CLAX1911 said:
Is there ever a point when sex with someone who doesn't consent isn't rape?



Yes sex is an act. That is what we are talking about. Thanks.
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No, you're confusing lacking understanding of consent and having sex with someone who does not consent. The understanding and the behavior are two different things. I might not understand every detail about how my car works, but i can still use it.
 
Harshaw said:
Well, there is a stark similarity.
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Definitely. I mean look, I know for a fact that movies and TV shows don't teach me how to act in real life. Just like playing video games doesn't give me some urge to commit violent acts.
 
Josie said:
I don't need a guy to ask if he can kiss me. If we're together, having a great time, touching, laughing, smiling, looking into each other's eyes... then it's obvious that I want him to kiss me. I prefer him to not ask - just do.
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We should always ask, though perhaps without words.

Some women might get aroused by a rape fantasy, but that's not a valid reason for men to rape strangers.
 
Henrin said:
I don't recall any of those lessons. When was I supposed to learn them exactly?
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In Mississippi we learned about this in 7th grade.
 
Harshaw said:
What does that mean? Obviously, consent is required. Consent is paramount. Consent absolutely needs to happen. But . . . "sexy"? Come on.

If something's actually sexy, no one needs to have it "drilled in." If it needs to be ingrained that it's sexy, it's not.

I think what this really means is, "we have a political agenda here, and we want to make you think it's sexy, whether it really is or not."

And you know what? Asking formal permission at every step along the way, as the info at your link suggests is the intention . . . is not sexy. I don't care what crusade you wrap it up in; I don't care what rationales you bring to it, I don't care what statistics you cite, or how aghast you might be for saying it -- it's not sexy. And honestly, if you NEED a rationale, it's automatically not sexy.

Maybe it's a good idea to get verbal consent every step of the way. Maybe stopping to sign consent forms is a good idea, and the lawyer part of me is screaming "IT'S A DAMN GOOD IDEA THESE DAYS," but no matter how practically or even ethically good of an idea it is . . .

It's not sexy. Again, if you have to CONVINCE someone it's sexy, it's not sexy.
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Agreed. Asking if you can do this and this, or put your hand here, or touch you there every ****ing 10 seconds isn't sexy in any sense of the word. That's just a major turn-off.
 
Absentglare said:
We should always ask, though perhaps without words.

Some women might get aroused by a rape fantasy, but that's not a valid reason for men to rape strangers.
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How would you ask without words?

Your second sentence has nothing to do with what I said so I'm not sure why you added it when you quoted me.
 
Nilly said:
Part of the effort of people who talk about rape culture is trying to drill in the message that Consent is sexy.

Consent Is Sexy
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I don't know about you, but I defintley wouldn't find my SO asking me where and when they could touch me every 10 seconds "sexy". There's NO way you can possibly convince me of that being "sexy", because it just isn't. It's cringeworthy, and overall a major turn-off.
 
Nilly said:
7 Reasons So Many Guys Don?t Understand Sexual Consent

Interesting piece on how we're socially conditioned to think about sex and consent. Amongst other things, it takes a look at some of the most famous movies in history and shows how sexual assault is normalized in them.

Here are the 'lessons':



I know it's cracked, but it's not a typical cracked article. Interested in hearing dissenting thoughts, and to see whether people agree whether certain cultural icons do give children the wrong impression of consent.

I request that if you do see something wrong you point out the specifics, rather than just dismissing the entire article. There are separate points in there. Thanks.
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I've never thought sexual assault was no big deal, did you?
 
Henrin said:
Yeah? Damn, I feel so neglected. :(
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Well that's unfortunate.

I remember being 12 years old and our teacher told us, "Boys, just reach down and grab em by the *****!"

Little could I have ever known that our teacher would one day run for president.
 
TheGoverness said:
Yes you did. You were subliminally programmed by Star Wars. :)
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Never mind that the hormones between Han and Leia were almost visible. They both clearly knew what was up.
 
Lutherf said:
Furthermore, if a guy is out with a woman having a few drinks and they're both a little tipsy and flirty then the next day the woman feels guilty the guy is screwed.
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^This is actually a seriously deeply confused double standard. Date rape is indeed a very real problem but people don't understand how to reconcile the influence of alcohol (or influence of any kind for that matter) with agency. And so we end up with confused nonsense.
 
TheGoverness said:
I don't know about you, but I defintley wouldn't find my SO asking me where and when they could touch me every 10 seconds "sexy". There's NO way you can possibly convince me of that being "sexy", because it just isn't. It's cringeworthy, and overall a major turn-off.
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Express verbal acknowledgement of consent is ****ing ridiculous. I can't ever recall explicitly asking a partner if she is consenting to sex with me (or my partner asking me, for that matter). That doesn't mean consent isn't present. Or that parties involved don't understand whether consent is present.


Besides, verbal acknowledgement isn't reliable enough. What we really need are signed, notarized legal contracts... :roll:
 
the_recruit said:
Express verbal acknowledgement of consent is ****ing ridiculous. I can't ever recall explicitly asking a partner if she is consenting to sex with me (or my partner asking me, for that matter). That doesn't mean consent isn't present. Or that parties involved don't understand whether consent is present.
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Agreed. I couldn't even imagine what it would be like explicitly asking someone if they can do something as simple as give them a kiss every single time. I haven't met anyone who finds that reasonable, or even "sexy".

Besides, verbal acknowledgement isn't reliable enough. What we really need are signed, notarized legal contracts... :roll:
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There was an app that tried to do something similar to that. What a horrible idea.
 
Nilly said:
7 Reasons So Many Guys Don?t Understand Sexual Consent

Interesting piece on how we're socially conditioned to think about sex and consent. Amongst other things, it takes a look at some of the most famous movies in history and shows how sexual assault is normalized in them.

Here are the 'lessons':



I know it's cracked, but it's not a typical cracked article. Interested in hearing dissenting thoughts, and to see whether people agree whether certain cultural icons do give children the wrong impression of consent.

I request that if you do see something wrong you point out the specifics, rather than just dismissing the entire article. There are separate points in there. Thanks.
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Do you seriously believe this stupid ****? Good grief. :doh When you have something as absurdly stoopid as this, how can you NOT dismiss the entire article? :shock:

Libs are as gullible as all get out.
 
Josie said:
How would you ask without words?

Your second sentence has nothing to do with what I said so I'm not sure why you added it when you quoted me.
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Body language.

The second sentence debunks your argument.
 
I honestly can't think of any man who would want a woman who needed him to ask permission every time he wanted to touch her. I mean -- how rigid can you get?
 
Josie said:
I don't need a guy to ask if he can kiss me. If we're together, having a great time, touching, laughing, smiling, looking into each other's eyes... then it's obvious that I want him to kiss me. I prefer him to not ask - just do.
Click to expand...

Absentglare said:
We should always ask, though perhaps without words.

Some women might get aroused by a rape fantasy, but that's not a valid reason for men to rape strangers.
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Josie said:
How would you ask without words?

Your second sentence has nothing to do with what I said so I'm not sure why you added it when you quoted me.
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Absentglare said:
Body language.

The second sentence debunks your argument.
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Body language is what *I* said, so we agree on that. However, Nilly is saying that it has to be verbal - every time - because that's "sexy"...or something.

My argument is that I don't think a man should have to ask permission to touch a woman if the woman is showing body language that makes it obvious that she wants it.....which you just agreed with. And your response is "men shouldn't rape"? I mean.... what?....
 
TheGoverness said:
Agreed. I couldn't even imagine what it would be like explicitly asking someone if they can do something as simple as give them a kiss every single time. I haven't met anyone who finds that reasonable, or even "sexy".
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Right. And you bring up an interesting point here. Recognizing the presence of consent doesn't stop at the initiation of sex. It carries on throughout. If during sex you start doing something that is painful or uncomfortable to your partner that he/she doesn't want, you need to stop and readjust. You can't say "no, i'm sorry, you already consented, we're doing this baby". You have to continually be recognizing what your partner is feeling. So, a verbal "Yes" at the beginning of sex is pretty much useless anyway.

TheGoverness said:
There was an app that tried to do something similar to that. What a horrible idea.
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*Facepalm*. That's soooo millenial! :lamo
 
Josie said:
I honestly can't think of any man who would want a woman who needed him to ask permission every time he wanted to touch her. I mean -- how rigid can you get?
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If campaigns like this "consent is sexy" thing get enough traction, men are going to think it's what they have to do.

I can't imagine women wanting a man who feels he needs to ask every time he does something.

And hence, there are going to be a lot of miserable, frustrated people.

About 25 years ago, SNL did a sketch mocking Oberlin College for starting the earliest versions of this kind of thinking, taking it to what they thought was the absurd extreme.

Now, what they did in that sketch literally is what's in Nilly's Orwellian "consent is sexy" campaign. That campaign actually is the satirical extreme.
 
Absentglare said:
No, you're confusing lacking understanding of consent and having sex with someone who does not consent.
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Consent to have sex is what we are talking about when we are saying consent.

If you don't have unconsensual sex you understand consent. It isn't rocket science.


The understanding and the behavior are two different things. I might not understand every detail about how my car works, but i can still use it.
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If you don't know how your car works you aren't capable of operating it, starting it or even getting into it. You know the lock has to be unlocked to open the door... so on.

Consent isn't rocket science or even basic mechanics.
 
Josie said:
Body language is what *I* said, so we agree on that. However, Nilly is saying that it has to be verbal - every time - because that's "sexy"...or something.

My argument is that I don't think a man should have to ask permission to touch a woman if the woman is showing body language that makes it obvious that she wants it.....which you just agreed with. And your response is "men shouldn't rape"? I mean.... what?....
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The only way it makes sense as "debunking your argument" is that he thinks you have "rape fantasies" and that's what you were describing, and that the situation you described would be with a "total stranger." And apparently that when you said "kiss," you meant a lot more than that.

It doesn't make sense any other way.
 
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