• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Should we be seeking a cure for gender dysphoria"?

Should we be seeking a cure for gender dysphoria"?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 68.2%

  • No

    Votes: 3 13.6%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 4 18.2%
  • Total voters
    22
X Factor

X Factor

Anti-Socialist
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
61,694
Reaction score
32,331
Location
El Paso Strong
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
If there is a possibility of a treatment where someone could truly get to a point where they're comfortable with their biological sex, is that something that would worth pursuing or even ethical? Sincerely interested in seeing what people think. It does not appear (to me) that research into such a cure would be very well received. I'm going to add a simple poll but I'm really most interested in explanation of why you think whatever it is that you do.
 
Shouldn't that be the goal in the first place?

And why wouldn't it be well received? Don't they want to be comfortable in their own body? Don't they want to be comfortable as the gender they were born as? I don't quite get why this shouldn't be the direction things are going right now. It seems to me to be the only ethical choice.
 
Last edited:
X Factor said:
If there is a possibility of a treatment where someone could truly get to a point where they're comfortable with their biological sex, is that something that would worth pursuing or even ethical? Sincerely interested in seeing what people think. It does not appear (to me) that research into such a cure would be very well received. I'm going to add a simple poll but I'm really most interested in explanation of why you think whatever it is that you do.
Click to expand...

Of course it wouldn't be well received. Take a lot more mainstream cures that are being researched and see the backlash from those communities, like blind people that don't want to see and deaf people that don't want to hear. They have built thier whole life around an "identity" and have no desire to change
 
X Factor said:
If there is a possibility of a treatment where someone could truly get to a point where they're comfortable with their biological sex, is that something that would worth pursuing or even ethical? Sincerely interested in seeing what people think. It does not appear (to me) that research into such a cure would be very well received. I'm going to add a simple poll but I'm really most interested in explanation of why you think whatever it is that you do.
Click to expand...

Define 'cure'?

For starters...

There is already a treatment that works, is it perfect no, should we be looking for better, yes. Apparently it is a point of 'faith' but, I could not refuse a treatment that the evidence shows will alleviate suffering and pain to someone just because I might find their choices a bit 'icky'; hell I'd even go as far as supporting the treatment of conservatives on this basis.
 
X Factor said:
If there is a possibility of a treatment where someone could truly get to a point where they're comfortable with their biological sex, is that something that would worth pursuing or even ethical? Sincerely interested in seeing what people think. It does not appear (to me) that research into such a cure would be very well received. I'm going to add a simple poll but I'm really most interested in explanation of why you think whatever it is that you do.
Click to expand...

I think the decision of whether to conform the brain to the body, or the body to the brain, is one that should be solely decided by the patient. If we only have the ability to do one or the other (as is the case right now, where we can only conform the body), then it is inherently ethical to offer treatment to people who have a serious disorder that can potentially end their lives, of course.

I think it's just as valid to choose to conform the brain as it is to choose to conform the body, and I think our current treatments are just as much of a "cure" as a brain-focused treatment would be. Our treatments relieve gender dysphoria. They're curative. :shrug:

Neither the brain nor the body is "wrong" or "disordered," in itself, so there is no reason one choice is superior to a given patient over another. That will be a very personal consideration, as many choices in medical care are. My only concern would be to ensure patients can make that decision free of coercion.

I would bet that the reason you're not seeing research into this is because it requires neurological imaging technology that we just don't have. I think it is very safe to say this is not something we can do with psychotherapy -- we've tried, a million different ways, and all of them have failed. This would need to be a neurological treatment, and we don't have the tech yet. That's why we switched focus to the body.
 
Last edited:
SmokeAndMirrors said:
I think the decision of whether to conform the brain to the body, or the body to the brain, is one that should be solely decided by the patient. If we only have the ability to do one or the other (as is the case right now, where we can only conform the body), then it is inherently ethical to offer treatment to people who have a serious disorder that can potentially end their lives, of course.

I think it's just as valid to choose to conform the brain as it is to choose to conform the body, and I think our current treatments are just as much of a "cure" as a brain-focused treatment would be. Our treatments relieve gender dysphoria. They're curative. :shrug:

Neither the brain nor the body is "wrong" or "disordered," in itself, so there is no reason one choice is superior to a given patient over another. That will be a very personal consideration, as many choices in medical care are. My only concern would be to ensure patients can make that decision free of coercion.

I would bet that the reason you're not seeing research into this is because it requires neurological imaging technology that we just don't have. I think it is very safe to say this is not something we can do with psychotherapy -- we've tried, a million different ways, and all of them have failed. This would need to be a neurological treatment, and we don't have the tech yet. That's why we switched focus to the body.
Click to expand...

We've actually tried neurological and chemical treatments, too. Attempts to alter the brain to be in synergy with the body have failed. For example, any attempts at using hormones to match the brain to body have been entirely unsuccessful... where as the opposite has worked well. There would have to be some very new technology to accomplish what the OP suggests. My guess is that if I was possible, transsexuals would be very happy to use the treatment. I once heard a quote from Rene Richards who, though satisfied with the results of her HRT/SRS, wished that she never had to do it, that she would have much preferred to be able to feel a brain-body consistency. GDD is a pretty awful disorder. Currently, HRT/SRS resolves the issue in most cases. If there was a way to NOT need to go through that kind of transitioning and to achieve the same results, I'm pretty sure it would be very supported. I know I'd support it.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
We've actually tried neurological and chemical treatments, too. Attempts to alter the brain to be in synergy with the body have failed. For example, any attempts at using hormones to match the brain to body have been entirely unsuccessful... where as the opposite has worked well. There would have to be some very new technology to accomplish what the OP suggests. My guess is that if I was possible, transsexuals would be very happy to use the treatment. I once heard a quote from Rene Richards who, though satisfied with the results of her HRT/SRS, wished that she never had to do it, that she would have much preferred to be able to feel a brain-body consistency. GDD is a pretty awful disorder. Currently, HRT/SRS resolves the issue in most cases. If there was a way to NOT need to go through that kind of transitioning and to achieve the same results, I'm pretty sure it would be very supported. I know I'd support it.
Click to expand...

Interesting, thanks for this.

Yeah, I really don't think there's be as much push-back as X thinks either, provided it was just presented as another option on the table like any other medical choice, and not overly politicized. I can think of 100 reasons why someone might really want a brain-based treatment over physical transition, not least of which is that it seems like it would probably have a much faster treatment and healing period than conforming the body.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Interesting, thanks for this.

Yeah, I really don't think there's be as much push-back as X thinks either, provided it was just presented as another option on the table like any other medical choice, and not overly politicized. I can think of 100 reasons why someone might really want a brain-based treatment over physical transition, not least of which is that it seems like it would probably have a much faster treatment and healing period than conforming the body.
Click to expand...

The trans folks I work with just want to feel better and feel better in their own skin/body. If there was something that could accomplish this goal by bringing their brain inline with their body, they'd want to do it, especially if it was less intensive than what they currently must do. But here's the issue, and mark my words, tomorrow, when certain posters like Henrin, who has already posted in this thread, come in and comment, they will make absurd statements that offer no assistance or treatment inside current parameters for transsexuals. They make up stuff just to validate their uneducated, illogical, and biased agenda. Point is, we currently treat GDD with the best course of treatment available. It's ethical, effective, and the results are highly successful. No one on the opposite side of the issue can offer an evidence that refutes those three components; they never have, and all attempts have been refuted by myself and others. None of them really care about finding an alternate treatment. Their real agenda is to degrade transsexuals simply because they are different.

A brain based treatment would be a great solution. Doing NOTHING until that occurs is an awful solution, especially when we have a highly effective treatment currently available.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Interesting, thanks for this.

Yeah, I really don't think there's be as much push-back as X thinks either, provided it was just presented as another option on the table like any other medical choice, and not overly politicized. I can think of 100 reasons why someone might really want a brain-based treatment over physical transition, not least of which is that it seems like it would probably have a much faster treatment and healing period than conforming the body.
Click to expand...

I don't think people are adverse, at all, to trying to "fix" their brain (I take meds to, at least, minimize the grip my OCD can have on me), but I do think for some it conjures up images of involuntary shock treatments and lobotomies.
 
X Factor said:
I don't think people are adverse, at all, to trying to "fix" their brain (I take meds to, at least, minimize the grip my OCD can have on me), but I do think for some it conjures up images of involuntary shock treatments and lobotomies.
Click to expand...

Involuntary treatments of such only occur when an individual is acutely in danger to themselves or others. Even then, pretty significant documentation is required.
 
X Factor said:
I don't think people are adverse, at all, to trying to "fix" their brain (I take meds to, at least, minimize the grip my OCD can have on me), but I do think for some it conjures up images of involuntary shock treatments and lobotomies.
Click to expand...

I think that is perhaps more true for either trans people who got all that stuff dealt with and behind them a long time ago, or non-trans people who have done a lot of ally work like, for example, me. Because there is some little part of me that is always watching very carefully for insinuations of, "They're crazy, lock them up and do stuff to their brain." Because, let's be real, a lot of people want to do that to them. And as an ally, basically my job is to try to watch their backs when they're distracted trying to get themselves well, ya know?

But for trans people in the thick of GDD and transition right now? Like Captain said, they really just want to feel better. I think to at least some of them, having that option to consider a brain-based treatment probably sounds ****ing miraculous. Transition takes forever. It can be distressing in itself, as you try to find the right balance of hormones, or go through several, prolonged healing periods. I have the feeling a brain-based treatment wouldn't be as simple as taking a pill, but it would probably be less harrowing than physical transition, and I'm sure there would be at least some trans people who would jump at the opportunity.
 
Good question, as i can see the activists arguing the same they did with homosexuality only a few years ago - there's nothing wrong with transgender, it's fine the way it is, it's everyone else who needs to **** off, blahblah

But i agree with CC, to have a body that doesn't align with the brain, with how much weight our society puts into both anatomy and gender (even from the cradle) would suck bad. Even inherently, perhaps, it can lead to mental torment. So yeah, there is a 'solution' but it's far from perfect and better options should be researched

This isn't to vindicate the trans haters though, if there were a way to take pills so a MtF can instead be 'just male'
 
My opposition to transgenderism isn't mutually exclusive with sympathy for the afflicted. Just like we seek to cure anyone suffering from other mental/psychological disorders, we should seek to cure those suffering from gender dysphoria. What we shouldn't do, however, is resorting to quackery or legitimating maladaptive behavior.
 
Gaztopian said:
My opposition to transgenderism isn't mutually exclusive with sympathy for the afflicted. Just like we seek to cure anyone suffering from other mental/psychological disorders, we should seek to cure those suffering from gender dysphoria. What we shouldn't do, however, is resorting to quackery or legitimating maladaptive behavior.
Click to expand...

How is it quackery or maladaptive when it returns 95% of patients to mental health while leaving them still entirely functional, if not more functional than they were before? That's pretty much the opposite of quackery, according to just about every dictionary ever written. Even our treatments for depression -- which is incredibly common and has vastly more research money -- can't get anywhere near that kind of success rate. The place we have gotten to with treating GDD is extraordinary.

That you are uncomfortable with the fact that biology doesn't always give us a perfectly cohesive sex is immaterial to whether current trans therapies are effective medicine.
 
X Factor said:
If there is a possibility of a treatment where someone could truly get to a point where they're comfortable with their biological sex, is that something that would worth pursuing or even ethical? Sincerely interested in seeing what people think. It does not appear (to me) that research into such a cure would be very well received. I'm going to add a simple poll but I'm really most interested in explanation of why you think whatever it is that you do.
Click to expand...

I believe we should cure all illness, but don't you think we should look for a cure for Misanthropy first?
;)
;)
 
Henrin said:
Shouldn't that be the goal in the first place?

And why wouldn't it be well received? Don't they want to be comfortable in their own body? Don't they want to be comfortable as the gender they were born as? I don't quite get why this shouldn't be the direction things are going right now. It seems to me to be the only ethical choice.
Click to expand...

The question would be, what a cure should be. Do you mean an operation that makes a man look like a girl or a pill that makes the man feel like a man?
 
X Factor said:
If there is a possibility of a treatment where someone could truly get to a point where they're comfortable with their biological sex, is that something that would worth pursuing or even ethical? Sincerely interested in seeing what people think. It does not appear (to me) that research into such a cure would be very well received. I'm going to add a simple poll but I'm really most interested in explanation of why you think whatever it is that you do.
Click to expand...

if some 1 wants 1 i guess
 
Of course we should be seeking a cure. No one should be forced into accepting it, but having options is good.
 
Gaztopian said:
My opposition to transgenderism isn't mutually exclusive with sympathy for the afflicted. Just like we seek to cure anyone suffering from other mental/psychological disorders, we should seek to cure those suffering from gender dysphoria. What we shouldn't do, however, is resorting to quackery or legitimating maladaptive behavior.
Click to expand...

I'm sure your concern is noted, now take a step back and let the professionals do their job.
 
The amount of evidence suggesting that gender identity dysphoria (GID) is a mental disorder not simply a sexual identity is the key to answering this.

The percentage of the community with suicidal behavior is 20% higher among members of the VA that were diagnosed with GID.
Over the last decade the total number of VA members that were diagnosed doubled.
The diagnoses of GID has conditions like "Disgust with their genitals. They may avoid showering, changing clothes, or having sex in order to avoid seeing or touching their genitals." as part of the criteria.
Finally, the comorbidity of GID is upwards of 70 percent.

That co-morbidity makes it very difficult to justify permanent mutilation of the pleasure organs, along with other, more cosmetic, surgery.

The fact that we allow physical changes to the body to be made due to the existence of a mental fault is totally backwards. Why break what works to fix what doesn't?
The fact is, that these people tend to regret the change; they are going to be unhappy with their gender -regardless- of which gender it is, due to this mental illness.

The only solution then is to highly educate the people on what is going on, the regret rate, and just postpone in general the speed at which one can become a member of the opposite sex through genital and other physical reconstructive surgery.
We can't ban the surgery, that's stupid, though I have heard people on my side of the issue bring it up. I believe in individual autonomy and liberty.

If anyone you know has this or talks like they might make permanent deformities to their body, please talk them away from surgery. Chances are they will learn to regret it.
 
William Rea said:
I'm sure your concern is noted, now take a step back and let the professionals do their job.
Click to expand...

Yes professional healthcare workers, like psychologists/psychiatrists need to stop feeling bullied by the trans community to only offer the surgery.
It's not fair to have the social conditions they live in impacting his professional medical opinion.
 
CapitalistZombi said:
The amount of evidence suggesting that gender identity dysphoria (GID) is a mental disorder not simply a sexual identity is the key to answering this.

The percentage of the community with suicidal behavior is 20% higher among members of the VA that were diagnosed with GID.
Over the last decade the total number of VA members that were diagnosed doubled.
The diagnoses of GID has conditions like "Disgust with their genitals. They may avoid showering, changing clothes, or having sex in order to avoid seeing or touching their genitals." as part of the criteria.
Finally, the comorbidity of GID is upwards of 70 percent.

That co-morbidity makes it very difficult to justify permanent mutilation of the pleasure organs, along with other, more cosmetic, surgery.

The fact that we allow physical changes to the body to be made due to the existence of a mental fault is totally backwards. Why break what works to fix what doesn't?
The fact is, that these people tend to regret the change; they are going to be unhappy with their gender -regardless- of which gender it is, due to this mental illness.

The only solution then is to highly educate the people on what is going on, the regret rate, and just postpone in general the speed at which one can become a member of the opposite sex through genital and other physical reconstructive surgery.
We can't ban the surgery, that's stupid, though I have heard people on my side of the issue bring it up. I believe in individual autonomy and liberty.

If anyone you know has this or talks like they might make permanent deformities to their body, please talk them away from surgery. Chances are they will learn to regret it.
Click to expand...

Actually our treatments have about a 95% success and satisfaction rate. Show me anything from anything better than the Enquirer that says "chances are" they'll regret it.

No one ever said GID was a "sexual identity" and being trans is also not a mental disorder. The brain is fine. It just can't function correctly in the hormonal environment it's in, because that isn't the environment it was made to be in, which is what causes GID. But fundamentally, there's nothing wrong with the brain itself.

So... basically nothing you've said here is even tangentially related to reality.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Actually our treatments have about a 95% success and satisfaction rate. Show me anything from anything better than the Enquirer that says "chances are" they'll regret it.

No one ever said GID was a "sexual identity" and being trans is also not a mental disorder. The brain is fine. It just can't function correctly in the hormonal environment it's in, because that isn't the environment it was made to be in, which is what causes GID. But fundamentally, there's nothing wrong with the brain itself.

So... basically nothing you've said here is even tangentially related to reality.
Click to expand...

Regret Isn’t Rare: The Dangerous Lie of Sex Change Surgery’s Success | Public Discourse
There? not enquirer

Well people are looking at it like it's a pride issue similar to gay identity when they should be raising awareness like epilepsy
Plus the word Identity in Gender Identity Dysphoria

The brain can't function in its environment may as well be the definition of mental disorder. The brain, when healthy can cope with nearly anything. This GID didn't just pop up and prove everything else we know from science to be wrong just because it's a touchy subject.

I'm on your side. Really. I don't view Trans as any different from anyone else who has major depressive disorder or schizophrenia

Anytime a symptom of something is amputation or mutilation of genitalia that falls under mental illness.
The goal should be to bring the mind to the body; not hack and slash away flesh.

How can you say nothing I said is reality?
It all is.

The suicidal behavior to the spike of occurrence; brain heals smoother and there is regret for surgery.

There is nothing I don't stand by
 
This is another study done in sweden (or it may be the one whose data was warped) Please go to the "Results" section. Note the much higher rate of mortality.

PLOS ONE: Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden


Here is another one that, if manipulated would tell the low regret stat, but it's obvious the testers were now given a chance:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23398495
" However, our decision to seek patients' permission proved so upsetting to three of the first six patients that we altered the structure of this report. Our attempt to follow the ethical principle of informed consent caused us to violate the principle of nonmalfiescence. This distressing experience only illustrates, however, the disadvantage of discussing professional concepts with lay audiences. Emphasis on civil rights is not a substitute for the recognition and treatment of associated psychopathology. Gender identity specialists, unlike the media, need to be concerned about the majority of patients, not just the ones who are apparently functioning well in transition."

--the last lines of the abstract in study

it's mental illness, the sooner we accept that the sooner we can give people -real, tangible- assistance.

At the very least why would you be sooo opposed to the idea?
You can't know with certainty that the brain isn't the culprit.
 
Last edited:
CapitalistZombi said:
Regret Isn’t Rare: The Dangerous Lie of Sex Change Surgery’s Success | Public Discourse
There? not enquirer

Well people are looking at it like it's a pride issue similar to gay identity when they should be raising awareness like epilepsy
Plus the word Identity in Gender Identity Dysphoria

The brain can't function in its environment may as well be the definition of mental disorder. The brain, when healthy can cope with nearly anything. This GID didn't just pop up and prove everything else we know from science to be wrong just because it's a touchy subject.

I'm on your side. Really. I don't view Trans as any different from anyone else who has major depressive disorder or schizophrenia

Anytime a symptom of something is amputation or mutilation of genitalia that falls under mental illness.
The goal should be to bring the mind to the body; not hack and slash away flesh.

How can you say nothing I said is reality?
It all is.

The suicidal behavior to the spike of occurrence; brain heals smoother and there is regret for surgery.

There is nothing I don't stand by
Click to expand...

I said "better than." And you failed. If anything, this is worse.

This is a single individual who had a dissociative disorder and wasn't properly psychologically evaluated. He has no medical training whatsoever, and doesn't appear to be basing his conjecture on anything but his own misdiagnosis by some quack from decades ago.

So as of yet, you still have not provided me any evidence people are likley to regret it. I'm certain there are some -- 95% is not 100% after all. We also know that some percentage of trans people do fine with HRT alone (while others do not and need SRS as well), but feel pressured to do more so that they can go undetected by society, and thus are less likely to be assaulted.

But you have done nothing but peddle nonsense from someone with no qualifications in the field. It's unfortunate he had the experience he did, but no one was ever claiming no one ever did. There's nothing in medicine that is perfect. That doesn't prove your claim.

The last couple sentences of this aren't even grammatical -- just meaningless word salad. And you expect anyone to take you seriously when you claim to know the truth in direct opposition to decades of scientific research?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom