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Batterer male transsexual to serve sentence in women's jail

roguenuke said:
You have no evidence that a major percent of cisgender women would prefer she be in a different prison or have "concerns" of her being in their prison.

It is not more complicated at all. One group is going to have to accept it.
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See? This is exactly what I'm talking about and you 100% prove my point. You don't care about finding a good solution or caring about everyone's concerns. You want to cater to one very small special pet group.
 
TheGoverness said:
The problem is, transgender prisoners (even more so when it comes to MtF transgenders) have a much higher risk of experiencing violence and abuse from other inmates in a men's prison. Trans women are at extreme risk when placed with the general population, and there's so many stories about these kind of incidents that you can find all over the Internet.

Because of that, in most cases it would be the trans individual in question that would be thrown into solitary confinement. Which is basically a form of punishment.
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I believe you're on point here.

And secondly, since we're talking about trans women here, these individuals don't identify with the gender they were assigned at birth, so I think the more appropriate measure would be to place them in a woman's prison.
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What they identify as is irrelevant as these things are separated by sex, not some mental feelings of gender. Same reason I wouldn't support MtF sports participation and such.

And even some have even suggested to create prisons specifically for LGBT+ prisoners, due to the fact that this particular group is at a much greater risk of abuse in prison. They feel that creating prisons for LGBT+ prisoners will help reduce the violence and abuse against these individuals.

But keep in mind that there's no easy solution to this problem. But thankfully, these kind of issues are getting much more attention, so I'm hopeful that we'll actually be able to solve these problems.
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I don't know about needing to do the whole rainbow but a small department for trans I think would be pretty easy to do. We're looking at a very small portion of the population. I think it wouldn't be hard to attached a small MtF partition in a female prison and a FtM on a male one.
 
roguenuke said:
Her sex appropriate prison would be a woman's prison. That is where she is being sent.
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Do you think a transman should be in a male prison? What do you think the likelihood of that person being abused is?
 
William Rea said:
I loved the implication that women's prisons are full of innocent women. It is a whole new slant on this SJW thing to find that women in prison are all innocent by default :)
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I think it's pretty obvious that sentencing and probably jury verdicts are biased against men if anything
 
roguenuke said:
Prove that she was the perpetrator rather than a victim as she claimed
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Excuse me? The state ALREADY proved it. Proved. Guilty. Convicted. Sentenced.

roguenuke said:
Didn't read the story did you?
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Eh? Pot. Kettle. Black. (see below)

roguenuke said:
Then the legal definitions are wrong because abuse involves an actual cycle. It is not a single incident of violence
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This perp had multiple incidences of violence. He was first convicted and fined for more than one incident previously. Then convicted for more violence this year. Again, maybe read the news article before spouting off as you scolded someone else above?

roguenuke said:
Prove she is a danger to someone who she is not in a relationship with, who potentially could have been abusing her. We don't know all the circumstances of this case.
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Why would anyone have to prove any such thing? But past violence (multiple incidents) is the best predictor of any person's tendency to be violent in the future. Why are you trying so hard to make excuses for this violent offender? Good god, he even claimed that teh transing made him do it. Seriously, he pulled a "the female hormones made me do it" defense. :shock:
 
Fishking said:
Do you think a transman should be in a male prison? What do you think the likelihood of that person being abused is?
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An interesting corollary to your question would be the rate of transmen (biological females) filing lawsuits demanding to be transferred from women's to men's facilities; or begging to be sent there immediately after first sentencing as is the case with transwomen (biological males) demanding to be housed with women. I'm guessing the rate is zero.
 
Jane said:
An interesting corollary to your question would be the rate of transmen (biological females) filing lawsuits demanding to be transferred from women's to men's facilities; or begging to be sent there immediately after first sentencing as is the case with transwomen (biological males) demanding to be housed with women. I'm guessing the rate is zero.
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Pretty sure it's zero as well.
 
In this instance, the court was concerned with the chance of "bullying" of this person with penis and testicles in a jail full of other people with penises and testicles. So the criteria was his looks and demeanor. Why couldn't effeminate men, men of slight stature and homosexual men not claim the same danger and ask to be moved to a safe women's facility? Stupid question, right? What about this offender makes him deserving of more protection?
 
roguenuke said:
Yes. Domestic violence. So again, prove that this would mean she is a danger to women.
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I'll just ignore your implication that "domestic" violence isn't real violence. But why should someone prove that this person is a DANGER to women. Your usual contention on these issues of males demanding access to female sex-segregated spaces is that the women should just go somewhere else if they don't like undressing around men. In what culture is it considered not a human rights violation for the state to force a female to be locked in a cell with a biological male?
 
The prison model in the UK is rehabilitative and not as punitive as in the United States.

Her sentence is 12 months. Which prison conditions would be the most likely to have rehabilitative benefits?

The judge is obviously thinking along those lines. The recidivism rate is usually higher for inmates who experience violence during their imprisonment.
 
Northern Light said:
The prison model in the UK is rehabilitative and not as punitive as in the United States.

Her sentence is 12 months. Which prison conditions would be the most likely to have rehabilitative benefits?

The judge is obviously thinking along those lines. The recidivism rate is usually higher for inmates who experience violence during their imprisonment.
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Rehabilitative benefits for whom? Less punitive for whom? As a female, I can just imagine how I would feel being forced to bunk with a violent biological male against my will in a locked cell for a year. It would be absurd, humiliating, demeaning and potentially dangerous for any woman. Someone who can impregnate females shouldn't be locked in cells with them. do you think?
 
ludin said:
Neither here nor there.
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It is important since you decided to mention that she was in jail for hitting a woman and you were wrong.


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Jane said:
In this instance, the court was concerned with the chance of "bullying" of this person with penis and testicles in a jail full of other people with penises and testicles. So the criteria was his looks and demeanor. Why couldn't effeminate men, men of slight stature and homosexual men not claim the same danger and ask to be moved to a safe women's facility? Stupid question, right? What about this offender makes him deserving of more protection?
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Because there is evidence that more than 40% of transgender women incarcerated in male prisons are not only raped, sexually assaulted, assaulted in general, and harassed by inmates, but also by guards. In fact, many are encouraged by guards to kill themselves in men's prisons. These statistics are not nearly as high for those other groups you mentioned.

Maybe the answer is a separate facility for all those groups, but this judge has decided to try this and you have no evidence that doing this puts the female prisoners in some increased danger due to her having a penis and testes. Those things don't hurt someone on their own.


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Jane said:
Judge cites fear of him being "bullied" in a men's facility.

So a violent male with penis and testicles who battered his partner (who was 24 years older) - and blamed his violence on his "sex change" no less - is judged someone that women should put up with due to - you guessed it: potential male violence. Why do actual women have to caretake violent men who fear male violence? I'm sure there will be no shortage of posters here who want to mansplain it to us why men can't devise solutions to their violence which don't involve innocent women.

By the way, I wonder if this has been recorded as an incidence of female violence in the crime statistics? That's one unintended (?) consequence of the new gender I-dentity nonsense. I'd be interested in what people think about that, too.

Transgender woman who battered lover sent to women's jail - Liverpool Echo

Here's more than you probably wanted to know about Natalie when he was gushing about how swimmingly things were going in the "transition" department:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/149...-with-man-despite-still-having-her-male-bits/
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I suspect that acting like a woman in a men's penal facility would yield the expected results. I certainly think I would find the woman in me, if the alternative was a women's prison.
 
Jane said:
Excuse me? The state ALREADY proved it. Proved. Guilty. Convicted. Sentenced.


Eh? Pot. Kettle. Black. (see below)

This perp had multiple incidences of violence. He was first convicted and fined for more than one incident previously. Then convicted for more violence this year. Again, maybe read the news article before spouting off as you scolded someone else above?

Why would anyone have to prove any such thing? But past violence (multiple incidents) is the best predictor of any person's tendency to be violent in the future. Why are you trying so hard to make excuses for this violent offender? Good god, he even claimed that teh transing made him do it. Seriously, he pulled a "the female hormones made me do it" defense. :shock:
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No even the judge said that the violence appeared to be mutual. He said the lack of remorse was the issue for not suspending the sentence. That was it. There is nothing to indicate that she is more violent than other women in prison.

How many women pull the "hormones made me do it"? PMS is an actual defense in some places, for some crimes. At the very least it can be considered a mitigating circumstance.


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TheGoverness said:
Good news. She commited a crime, and now she's paying the consequences. Hooray for the law working.

And if she can better serve her sentence somewhere where she won't be bullied (or worse), then what the **** ever.
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On the other hand, it seems like capitulation to say that die prisons are dangerous and cannot be made otherwise.
 
Jane said:
We know that across all racial and ethnic groups, around the world and throughout history that men commit many more crimes than do women. We know that men commit more sex-related crimes and more violent crimes.

Why would it be considered appropriate to lock a violent male offender in a cell with a female who more than likely is not there due to a conviction for a sex-related crime (unless prostitution) or a crime of violence? I try to imagine what this would be like and understand why many female prisoners are outraged at this sort of violation.

If he would be bullied by other men, then there should be areas set aside for all gender non-conforming males in male facilities where they can be safe. No one should have to face the prospect of violence, especially when they are being held captive by the state.
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But relax. It is a different woman and not you. ;)

So the general attitude. But maybe he will go for surgery, which the public can pay along with the medication.
 
Fishking said:
Do you think a transman should be in a male prison? What do you think the likelihood of that person being abused is?
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I think transmen would face the same harassment that transwomen do if they have not completed the surgery. Even then it should be in few cases based mainly on whether the population is likely to know.

The level of harassment and risk of assault or worse by inmates and guards is an important factor. It has been shown to be higher and more threatening in men's prisons than women's.


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William Rea said:
I loved the implication that women's prisons are full of innocent women. It is a whole new slant on this SJW thing to find that women in prison are all innocent by default :)
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I suspect that it would be less exciting to be there for a male, if the inmates were innocent women.
 
Jane said:
We know that across all racial and ethnic groups, around the world and throughout history that men commit many more crimes than do women. We know that men commit more sex-related crimes and more violent crimes.

Why would it be considered appropriate to lock a violent male offender in a cell with a female who more than likely is not there due to a conviction for a sex-related crime (unless prostitution) or a crime of violence? I try to imagine what this would be like and understand why many female prisoners are outraged at this sort of violation.

If he would be bullied by other men, then there should be areas set aside for all gender non-conforming males in male facilities where they can be safe. No one should have to face the prospect of violence, especially when they are being held captive by the state.
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Please understand I am not trying to be confrontational with my next sentence, it is more of a question.

Shouldn't he/she thought of that BEFORE he/she decided to attack and beat up another individual?

I do not see where their feelings or safety matter one bit. Let them be bullied, raped, be made a "punk" to their cellmate.

They should have thought about those consequences BEFORE they decided to attack another person.

Once they attacked someone else...screw em'.

AS AN ASIDE: I do not give too much for their safety in a women's unit either. Some women will view him/her with pure disgust.
 
roguenuke said:
Why would it be appropriate to lock a violent female offender in a cell with other females? Especially if those females were put in for violence or assault against someone else for simply "dissing" them or disrespecting them.

BTW, this wasn't a sex related crime. It was basically domestic violence. Nowhere does it say this was a sex related crime. And there is no indication that she is sexually into rape or such power plays.
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Funny, they would miss that salient point. I guess he was violent for "blamed the attack on the emotions brought on by her sex change" as he said, which is obviously not sexually related.
 
Fishking said:
I believe you're on point here.



What they identify as is irrelevant as these things are separated by sex, not some mental feelings of gender. Same reason I wouldn't support MtF sports participation and such.



I don't know about needing to do the whole rainbow but a small department for trans I think would be pretty easy to do. We're looking at a very small portion of the population. I think it wouldn't be hard to attached a small MtF partition in a female prison and a FtM on a male one.
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The department of justice here in US stated in 2012 that sex alone could not be used to separate prisoners. Now this is in England I believe but I'm willing to bet their more liberal about such things.

Guards in men's prisons are a danger to transgender women. So your suggestion is not going to help unless they have special training. Additionally the very small number of transgender prisoners would also cause many prisons to end up with transgender women prisoners being de facto in solitary because they simply didn't have more than one or two people there. Not to mention the cost of such a thing would be prohibitive.


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roguenuke said:
Because there is evidence that more than 40% of transgender women incarcerated in male prisons are not only raped, sexually assaulted, assaulted in general, and harassed by inmates, but also by guards. In fact, many are encouraged by guards to kill themselves in men's prisons. These statistics are not nearly as high for those other groups you mentioned.

Maybe the answer is a separate facility for all those groups, but this judge has decided to try this and you have no evidence that doing this puts the female prisoners in some increased danger due to her having a penis and testes. Those things don't hurt someone on their own.
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I'm aware you prioritize males over females in everything you've said, I just don't understand why any person - especially a woman - would think it is proper for a female to be locked up against her will by the state with a biological male in a space the size of a bedroom where she presumably will have to use the toilet and change clothes. And face the possibility of rape resulting in pregnancy.

By the way, can you cite your source for the 40% figure and compare it to that for gay and straight non-trans prisoners in male prisons who are.....something (you lump in garden-variety harassment with rape. Strange)

And, again, why is male violence a problem that women are supposed to fix? My impression is that most prisons have separate units for those males in special danger of physical violence at the hand of fellow prisoners - for any reason.
 
roguenuke said:
Guards in men's prisons are a danger to transgender women.
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(Male) guards in women's prisons are a danger to women. Getting the big connection yet?
 
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