Cosmetic surgeries and sex life.

udina · Sep 16, 2016

Does cosmetic surgeries improve the sex life of people who undergo it ? Is it worth it ? Doesn't the pain & discomfort during the healing process somehow neutralizes that ? Please let me know what you really think.

Captain Adverse · Sep 16, 2016

udina said:
Does cosmetic surgeries improve the sex life of people who undergo it ? Is it worth it ? Doesn't the pain & discomfort during the healing process somehow neutralizes that ? Please let me know what you really think.

Why?

As a Libertarian I believe that each individual is wholly in control of their own life choices. This most especially applies to their own body.

If it makes them happier to sculpt their features, what matters it to others?

SmokeAndMirrors · Sep 16, 2016

udina said:
Does cosmetic surgeries improve the sex life of people who undergo it ? Is it worth it ? Doesn't the pain & discomfort during the healing process somehow neutralizes that ? Please let me know what you really think.

Like, objectively improve it, as in make it physically more enjoyable? The only way I think that'd be possible is if the surgery in question was some sort of reconstructive surgery.

Otherwise?

If something like a boob lift or a nose job improves your sex life, it's either because you don't feel confident enough in your body to enjoy yourself, or your partner is shallow as hell and has decided they'd rather have you change yourself than put in the effort to remedy that character flaw.

If it's the latter, get rid of your partner.

If it's the former, well, we've all got an albatross in this life and I won't tell people how to deal with it. I'll just say I can think of less expensive, painful, and risky ways that I would try first if I had that problem.

Dragonfly · Sep 16, 2016

udina said:
Please let me know what you really think.

Why?
You trying to use us for your homework assignment?

Gathomas88 · Sep 16, 2016

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Like, objectively improve it, as in make it physically more enjoyable? The only way I think that'd be possible is if the surgery in question was some sort of reconstructive surgery.

Otherwise?

If something like a boob lift or a nose job improves your sex life, it's either because you don't feel confident enough in your body to enjoy yourself, or your partner is shallow as hell and has decided they'd rather have you change yourself than put in the effort to remedy that character flaw.

If it's the latter, get rid of your partner.

If it's the former, well, we've all got an albatross in this life and I won't tell people how to deal with it. I'll just say I can think of less expensive, painful, and risky ways that I would try first if I had that problem.

Sooo... If you were with a guy who looked like, say, this...

...And he really let himself go, to the point where he looked like this...

...Would that not affect your sexual feelings towards him in the slightest?

For that matter, what if he were able to turn things around, and go back to looking like the first picture?

maquiscat · Sep 17, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
Sooo... If you were with a guy who looked like, say, this...

...And he really let himself go, to the point where he looked like this...

...Would that not affect your sexual feelings towards him in the slightest?

For that matter, what if he were able to turn things around, and go back to looking like the first picture?

Actually for many couple, this is a common story. If they actually have a relationship based on love, then the changes their partner's body goes through doesn't change their sexual feeling towards them. Could the difference in the initial look cause a different outcome of the first meeting? Sure.

My wives' bodies have changed over the years, and while I would mind a tuck or two for ascetic reasons, my sexual attraction to them has not diminished.

Gathomas88 · Sep 17, 2016

maquiscat said:
Actually for many couple, this is a common story. If they actually have a relationship based on love, then the changes their partner's body goes through doesn't change their sexual feeling towards them. Could the difference in the initial look cause a different outcome of the first meeting? Sure.

My wives' bodies have changed over the years, and while I would mind a tuck or two for ascetic reasons, my sexual attraction to them has not diminished.

Which is basically just a polite way of saying "I love 'em, but if we're being completely honest, they're not as hot as they used to be."

That's fine and all. However, at the end of the day, the fact of the matter remains that the vast majority of people would rather have a partner who either is, or could work themselves back around to being, sexually attractive in an at least somewhat "conventional" sense than one who is not, or cannot. That is the case regardless of the depth of non-sexual attachment and affection which may also happen to exist.

Just because a husband may get a bit more "frisky" than usual when his wife gets a "make-over," or hits the gym for a few months, doesn't necessarily mean that he loved her any less beforehand. Surgery is basically just a more extreme version of that.

Captain Adverse · Sep 17, 2016

maquiscat said:
Actually for many couple, this is a common story. If they actually have a relationship based on love, then the changes their partner's body goes through doesn't change their sexual feeling towards them. Could the difference in the initial look cause a different outcome of the first meeting? Sure.

Hmmm, I beg to differ (Caution some explicit language):

SmokeAndMirrors · Sep 17, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
Sooo... If you were with a guy who looked like, say, this...

...And he really let himself go, to the point where he looked like this...

...Would that not affect your sexual feelings towards him in the slightest?

For that matter, what if he were able to turn things around, and go back to looking like the first picture?

Eh... yes and no.

Morbidly obese guy will probably find it very tough to keep up with me. I also, like most people, have a hard time getting over things that are blatantly unhealthy and people who look like they are likely to drop dead sometime relatively soon. That said, I have dated guys who were notably overweight (though not to this extreme) and I was attracted to them, so in some cases, it's not insurmountable to me.

This is a really stupid example, just like another example you previously used of someone who was covered in sores. Uh, the answer to that is going to the doctor. That's not their innate appearance. Yes, I'd still be with a man who was having some kind of horrible skin reaction. Medical problems happen. That is a medical problem, and in many ways, so is obesity.

But that is not the same thing as someone just not being a super model, or even being not very attractive feature-wise. A fit person can still be not exceptionally attractive according to most, just because of how they are.

But my best sexual partners weren't necessarily the most attractive men I've ever dated. In fact, both of the most attractive men I've ever dated were crap in the sack, and I moved on pretty quickly.

Would my sex life improve if my partner changed his appearance? Honestly, I seriously doubt it. He's 9 years my senior, and while I think he's aging just fine, to be honest, he's right when he says I'm the looker between the two of us. That's no secret. Has that affected how attracted I am to him? Not even slightly. He's held my attention without a waver for quite a while. And again, if I'm being honest, that's quite difficult to do.

My sex life is the best it's ever been, in no small part due to him obviously, and I can't really imagine how it could be appreciably better. I mean, maybe extra fitness would just generally add extra stamina, but outside that -- which again, is a physically objective metric -- I don't see how it could make any difference. I couldn't be more attracted to him. Like, that's not possible. :lol:

That doesn't appear to be just me, or just women. See maquiscat's post.

Honestly, Greg? I think you need to experience an actual relationship to understand this. It really just doesn't matter all that much what someone looks like when you have that chemistry and you love them. Seriously. You put way too much stock in this.

It's not loving them "in spite" of not being a super model. It literally makes no difference. Saying that you can think of ways that they could be better-looking aesthetically is not the same thing as saying you'd be more attracted to them if they had those things.

Because ultimately, when you've had sex with someone a hundred times, or five hundred, or a thousand, you really don't give a **** about their abs anymore. You've seen them so often that it's like seeing your own face. What you care about is the sexual chemistry.

code1211 · Sep 17, 2016

udina said:
Does cosmetic surgeries improve the sex life of people who undergo it ? Is it worth it ? Doesn't the pain & discomfort during the healing process somehow neutralizes that ? Please let me know what you really think.

I started to develop a receding hair line at about the age of 25. I also had teeth that needed braces, but the economics of my upbringing did not allow that expense in my parent's household.

My receding hair line had receded to the back half of my head by about the age of 30 and I decided that hair implants would be nice to avoid that painful sunburn from the first round of golf each year AND that straight teeth would be a benefit for me.

So, I got hair implants and braces. Now I have hair on the top of my head and straight teeth. Both make me happy. Does it make my sex life better? Probably not. Does it make my life happier? Definitely, yes.

Do these things need to improve your sex life to be worth while?

I should think that if YOU want to get whatever it is that YOU want, then get it. If someone else wants you to get it and you don't, that's a whole different set of baggage.

The question you need to answer is, "Why?"

code1211 · Sep 17, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
Sooo... If you were with a guy who looked like, say, this...

...And he really let himself go, to the point where he looked like this...

...Would that not affect your sexual feelings towards him in the slightest?

For that matter, what if he were able to turn things around, and go back to looking like the first picture?

Whoopsie! Double post. Sorry!

_Sal · Sep 17, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
Sooo... If you were with a guy who looked like, say, this...

...And he really let himself go, to the point where he looked like this...

...Would that not affect your sexual feelings towards him in the slightest?

For that matter, what if he were able to turn things around, and go back to looking like the first picture?

lol picture number one is what picture number two "thinks" he looks like when he gazes at himself in the mirror

Gathomas88 · Sep 17, 2016

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Eh... yes and no.

Morbidly obese guy will probably find it very tough to keep up with me. I also, like most people, have a hard time getting over things that are blatantly unhealthy and people who look like they are likely to drop dead sometime relatively soon. That said, I have dated guys who were notably overweight (though not to this extreme) and I was attracted to them, so in some cases, it's not insurmountable to me.

This is a really stupid example, just like another example you previously used of someone who was covered in sores. Uh, the answer to that is going to the doctor. That's not their innate appearance. Yes, I'd still be with a man who was having some kind of horrible skin reaction. Medical problems happen. That is a medical problem, and in many ways, so is obesity.

But that is not the same thing as someone just not being a super model, or even being not very attractive feature-wise. A fit person can still be not exceptionally attractive according to most, just because of how they are.

But my best sexual partners weren't necessarily the most attractive men I've ever dated. In fact, both of the most attractive men I've ever dated were crap in the sack, and I moved on pretty quickly.

Would my sex life improve if my partner changed his appearance? Honestly, I seriously doubt it. He's 9 years my senior, and while I think he's aging just fine, to be honest, he's right when he says I'm the looker between the two of us. That's no secret. Has that affected how attracted I am to him? Not even slightly. He's held my attention without a waver for quite a while. And again, if I'm being honest, that's quite difficult to do.

My sex life is the best it's ever been, in no small part due to him obviously, and I can't really imagine how it could be appreciably better. I mean, maybe extra fitness would just generally add extra stamina, but outside that -- which again, is a physically objective metric -- I don't see how it could make any difference. I couldn't be more attracted to him. Like, that's not possible. :lol:

That doesn't appear to be just me, or just women. See maquiscat's post.

Honestly, Greg? I think you need to experience an actual relationship to understand this. It really just doesn't matter all that much what someone looks like when you have that chemistry and you love them. Seriously. You put way too much stock in this.

It's not loving them "in spite" of not being a super model. It literally makes no difference. Saying that you can think of ways that they could be better-looking aesthetically is not the same thing as saying you'd be more attracted to them if they had those things.

Because ultimately, when you've had sex with someone a hundred times, or five hundred, or a thousand, you really don't give a **** about their abs anymore. You've seen them so often that it's like seeing your own face. What you care about is the sexual chemistry.

A) The scenario's not quite so idyle as you might think. In today's society, it's actually fairly common for fit young men to ultimately wind up looking something like Picture B three or four decades down the line.

B) The question was not whether you'd still be "with" a partner who had such an appearance. The question was whether or not you, objectively, preferred one appearance over another, and whether you might find the partner pictured in A) more attractive than the partner pictured in B), even if they happened to be the same person.

Again, it's still entirely possible for his a husband to love his wife, and want to be with her, even if he is a bit more sexually excited by the version of his wife his a "make-over" or a boob-job, than the one without.

SmokeAndMirrors · Sep 17, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
A) The scenario's not quite so idyle as you might think. In today's society, it's actually fairly common for fit young men to ultimately wind up looking something like Picture B three or four decades down the line.

B) The question was not whether you'd still be "with" a partner who had such an appearance. The question was whether or not you, objectively, preferred one appearance over another, and whether you might find the partner pictured in A) more attractive than the partner pictured in B), even if they happened to be the same person.

Again, it's still entirely possible for his a husband to love his wife, and want to be with her, even if he is a bit more sexually excited by the version of his wife his a "make-over" or a boob-job, than the one without.

Most people don't wind up weighing over 300 pounds. Where on earth are you living?

But anyway, if I'd seen both naked a thousand times, I don't think the difference would be much in my mind. I like him or I don't. We have chemistry or we don't. That's really all the matters in sex, especially with the same person over and over. A bigger issue would be, how would a 300 pound man nearing middle age keep up with a fit woman who's still on the ramp to her sexual peak? That might cause issues, yes. Looks alone? Doubt it.

That said, I'd probably be pretty anxious about my partner's total disregard for simply staying alive. Especially if it were the one I'm with now, who's going to officially be entering his late 30's soon, and whose family has a history of heart disease. I doubt he'd make it to 50 if he were obese, which again, would be concerning considering that 50 isn't extremely far away.

I'd probably find it incredibly frustrating if he didn't care about that. It's less about how he looks and more that I would like him to still be well in 5 years, and to be alive in a decade. I'm real tired of people dying on me, and that would probably be the biggest thing on my mind. His looks would be so far from the fore I doubt I'd spend any serious time thinking about them. It might be problematic if his weight meant he just couldn't keep up with me (which it almost certainly would), but again, that's not really about looks.

Really, there's your honest answer. :shrug:

It's really tiresome watching you try to dig and dig to prove everyone's as shallow as you. They're not.

Gathomas88 · Sep 17, 2016

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Most people don't wind up weighing over 300 pounds. Where on earth are you living?

"Over 300 pounds?" No, not necessarily. Substantially overweight and out of shape, on the other hand? Yes, it's quite common.

I mean... Have you seen the obesity rate lately?

Granted, the UK's not quite so bad in this regard as the US... but it's not a whole lot better either.

UK Obesity - Prevalency and Trends

Data on overweight and obesity among adults (defined as people aged 16 and over) are mainly from the Health Survey for England (HSE). Results for 2014 showed that 61.7% of adults were overweight or obese (65.3% of men and 58.1% of women).

I'm sorry, but the odds are - unless your guy's a twig or a fitness freak - he's eventually going to wind up with a "bear" body and a beer gut at least somewhat reminiscent of the man I pictured. It's pretty normal, in point of fact.

I think you might be spending too much time around young "starving artist" types. :lol:

But anyway, if I'd seen both naked a thousand times, I don't think the difference would be much in my mind. I like him or I don't. We have chemistry or we don't. That's really all the matters in sex, especially with the same person over and over. A bigger issue would be, how would a 300 pound man nearing middle age keep up with a fit woman who's still on the ramp to her sexual peak? That might cause issues, yes. Looks alone? Doubt it.

...

Really, there's your honest answer. :shrug:

It's really tiresome watching you try to dig and dig to prove everyone's as shallow as you. They're not.

Well... Again, I'm sorry, but the fact of the matter is that, for the vast majority of people, looks matter to sexual attraction.

Don't mistake me here. I'm not saying that they're a "deal breaker" in and of themselves, per se, in an otherwise loving relationship. However, they do matter, on at least some level.

You keep trying to claim that they don't for you. However, given that your responses to the issue so far have ranged between evasion, and denial (i.e. my guy would never get that fat!), I'm not entirely sure that you're being honest here... Either with me, or yourself.

As before, the crux of my question - which you have so far declined to answer - is the following: Your partner fit, and conventionally attractive, vs your partner flabby, and noticeably less attractive in the conventional sense. Which one, objectively and all things being equal, "revs your engine" more?

Do you think that if - after a period of flabbiness - your partner were to bring themselves back to a state more in line with conventional attractiveness, it would lead to an increase in your purely physical desire for them?

The questions are simple enough. :shrug:

SmokeAndMirrors · Sep 17, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
"Over 300 pounds?" No, not necessarily. Substantially overweight and out of shape, on the other hand? Yes, it's quite common.

I mean... Have you seen the obesity rate lately?

Granted, the UK's not quite so bad in this regard as the US... but it's not a whole lot better either.

UK Obesity - Prevalency and Trends

I'm sorry, but the odds are - unless your guy's a twig or a fitness freak - he's eventually going to wind up with a "bear" body and a beer gut at least somewhat reminiscent of the man I pictured. It's pretty normal, in point of fact.

I think you might be spending too much time around young "starving artist" types. :lol:

Well... Again, I'm sorry, but the fact of the matter is that, for the vast majority of people, looks matter to sexual attraction.

Don't mistake me here. I'm not saying that they're a "deal breaker" in and of themselves, per se, in an otherwise loving relationship. However, they do matter, on at least some level.

You keep trying to claim that they don't for you. However, given that your responses to the issue so far have ranged between evasion, and denial (i.e. my guy would never get that fat!), I'm not entirely sure that you're being honest here... Either with me, or yourself.

I have answered your question perfectly. You just refuse to accept it unless the answer is, "Yes, Greg, I'm just as shallow as you." Sorry, that's not my answer.

Dude, that guy is over 300 pounds, and even most flabby middle aged guys are nowhere near that size. The fact that you think he is merely "overweight" is honestly a bit troubling, sociologically speaking. He is morbidly obese, not "overweight." Again, where do you live? What on earth are things like where you're from? I spent a total of about 22 years living in America, and that was never "normal." Anyway...

I didn't say he wouldn't. I said it's an absurd example, in the same way the guy covered in sores was an absurd example. Most people -- even most people who are out of shape -- don't weigh 300 pounds. If they do, they are in desperate need of medical help, and that is the aspect that would have me frazzled: his poor damn heart. I want him alive, fit or not. As a very distant second to the first-place concern of him staying alive, I might be concerned he wouldn't be able to keep up with me at all. That would hurt our sex life obviously, but not because I wouldn't want sex.

What makes you think my guy's a twig? He's not much into fitness really. Is he in the best shape in the world? No. He's in good enough shape to do what he does on an average day (and this being London, that may be more than your average suburban American who basically never gets out of their car, but it isn't as though he runs marathons, and "London fit" is basically from the hips down). Between the two ridiculous extremes you posted, he's probably somewhere right in the middle -- like most human beings on earth.

You sure do make a lot of dumb assumptions about who I spend my time with.

Like I said, when I reflect on my history, I don't see this as meaningful to the quality of sex I have with a given partner, apart from the negative impact that being very out of shape has on stamina. And I've got a fairly good sampling of body types to work with.

In this particular relationship, I find it hard to envision a level of attraction higher than the one I currently have, despite the fact there he has room to be more fit than he is. Like, I cannot mathematically envision a way it could be improved, because all metrics through which I might measure that are already as full as they can be, if I were to give them a percentage.

I mean, if you must know. So I don't know how it could be improved from where it currently is. The answer to your question is no. There's nowhere to go from "every aspect of attraction I can think of is as good as it can possibly be." That can't be improved.

This OP is "does getting plastic surgery improve sex," and my answer is "not unless you partner is horribly shallow." Everyone here who has ever been in a real relationship agrees with me.

Your unwillingness to accept my answer does not mean it hasn't been given.

Also, you trying to tell people how they feel in their relationships, when you've never even had a real relationship, and everyone here who HAS disagrees with you, is a bit of a laugh. What on earth would you know about it? You seem to believe you only start loving someone after they've already married you, and even then only out of obligation. And that's one reason of a million you just can't get your head around this.

Henrin · Sep 17, 2016

_Sal said:
lol picture number one is what picture number two "thinks" he looks like when he gazes at himself in the mirror

Nah. The guy in the top picture needs to change his workout so it's not just his pecks and upper abs that have any definition.

Gathomas88 · Sep 17, 2016

SmokeAndMirrors said:
I have answered your question perfectly. You just refuse to accept it unless the answer is, "Yes, Greg, I'm just as shallow as you." Sorry, that's not my answer.

Dude, that guy is over 300 pounds, and even most flabby middle aged guys are nowhere near that size. The fact that you think he is merely "overweight" is honestly a bit troubling, sociologically speaking. He is morbidly obese, not "overweight." Again, where do you live? What on earth are things like where you're from? I spent a total of about 22 years living in America, and that was never "normal." Anyway...

I didn't say he wouldn't. I said it's an absurd example, in the same way the guy covered in sores was an absurd example. Most people -- even most people who are out of shape -- don't weigh 300 pounds. If they do, they are in desperate need of medical help, and that is the aspect that would have me frazzled: his poor damn heart. I want him alive, fit or not. As a very distant second to the first-place concern of him staying alive, I might be concerned he wouldn't be able to keep up with me at all. That would hurt our sex life obviously, but not because I wouldn't want sex.

What makes you think my guy's a twig? He's not much into fitness really. Is he in the best shape in the world? No. He's in good enough shape to do what he does on an average day (and this being London, that may be more than your average suburban American who basically never gets out of their car, but it isn't as though he runs marathons, and "London fit" is basically from the hips down). Between the two ridiculous extremes you posted, he's probably somewhere right in the middle -- like most human beings on earth.

You sure do make a lot of dumb assumptions about who I spend my time with.

Like I said, when I reflect on my history, I don't see this as meaningful to the quality of sex I have with a given partner, apart from the negative impact that being very out of shape has on stamina. And I've got a fairly good sampling of body types to work with.

In this particular relationship, I find it hard to envision a level of attraction higher than the one I currently have, despite the fact there he has room to be more fit than he is. Like, I cannot mathematically envision a way it could be improved, because all metrics through which I might measure that are already as full as they can be, if I were to give them a percentage.

I mean, if you must know. So I don't know how it could be improved from where it currently is. The answer to your question is no. There's nowhere to go from "every aspect of attraction I can think of is as good as it can possibly be." That can't be improved.

This OP is "does getting plastic surgery improve sex," and my answer is "not unless you partner is horribly shallow." Everyone here who has ever been in a real relationship agrees with me.

Your unwillingness to accept my answer does not mean it hasn't been given.

Also, you trying to tell people how they feel in their relationships, when you've never even had a real relationship, and everyone here who HAS disagrees with you, is a bit of a laugh. What on earth would you know about it? You seem to believe you only start loving someone after they've already married you, and even then only out of obligation. And that's one reason of a million you just can't get your head around this.

Eh. Quite frankly, I think this is one of those things a lot of women either like to lie about, or where their conscious minds simply aren't terribly well in sync with their subconscious instincts.

Are looks quite so important for women as they are for men? Probably not, on average, all things being equal.

However, at the same time, I have seen more than enough old ladies go all googly eyed over some shirtless young stud to believe that they are the non-issue you're making them out to be either. Men and women may be different, but they're not that different.

Again, I think if you were being honest with yourself here, you'd admit that, if you had the choice between a fit, young, and attractive version of your partner, and a conventionally unattractive one, but with the same personality and personal qualities in all other regards, you'd choose the former version in a heartbeat. Just about everyone would.

Regarding "where I'm from," I've already shown you the statistics. Roughly a third of Americans and Brits are either heavily overweight, or outright obese. I'd classify that as being pretty damn "common."

Henrin · Sep 17, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
Eh. Quite frankly, I think this is one of those things a lot of women either like to lie about, or where their conscious minds simply aren't terribly well in sync with their subconscious instincts.

Are looks quite so important for women as they are for men? Probably not, on average, all things being equal.

However, at the same time, I have seen more than enough old ladies go all googly eyed over some shirtless young stud to believe that they are the non-issue you're making them out to be either. Men and women may be different, but they're not that different.

Again, I think if you were being honest with yourself here, you'd admit that, if you had the choice between a fit, young, and attractive version of your partner, and a conventionally unattractive one, but with the same personality and personal qualities in all other regards, you'd choose the former version in a heartbeat. Just about everyone would.

Regarding "where I'm from," I've already shown you the statistics. Roughly a third of Americans and Brits are either heavily overweight, or outright obese. I'd classify that as being pretty damn "common."

Yup. It's pretty much crap. Women will pick the fit guy all day everyday and then turn around and tell you that it's not that big of a thing for them. Ummm...yeah, a large reason men work out is to attract women because they noticed this tendency. I would also imagine that most guys that went from being overweight to being fit will tell you they got more attention from women because of it. But hey, it's not that big of a deal, you know. I wonder how many women would pick the fifty year old bald guy over the fit twenty-five year man. Oh right, not that many. :lol:

Gathomas88 · Sep 18, 2016

Henrin said:
Yup. It's pretty much crap. Women will pick the fit guy all day everyday and then turn around and tell you that it's not that big of a thing for them. Ummm...yeah, a large reason men work out is to attract women because they noticed this tendency. I would also imagine that most guys that went from being overweight to being fit will tell you they got more attention from women because of it. But hey, it's not that big of a deal, you know. I wonder how many women would pick the fifty year old bald guy over the fit twenty-five year man. Oh right, not that many. [emoji38]

Hell, man! The heaviest I've ever been was only 215 or so ('flabby' more than 'fat'). Even then, I can tell you that there is a world of difference between the kind of attention I got from women at that weight and body shape, vs the kind of attention I get when I'm at 185 or 195, and have been hitting the gym lately, to add a bit of muscle tone to the equation.

It's actually kind of funny.

I was talking about dating a girl in another thread a while back, and I mentioned that I just "wasn't that into her" on a physical level, largely due to her weight, lack of fitness, and lack of any real effort or apparent desire to improve either of those things. Several female posters got mad at me over it, in spite of my saying that this was something I actively tried to overcome.

What I didn't mention is that she was actually choosing me over a gaggle of other suitors she had firmly in the "friend zone." Do you know what they all had in common? They were short, fat, dumpy, more socially awkward than I was, or something else along those lines. Meanwhile, she frequently made comments regarding how much she liked my own muscle tone, or my height, or the color of my eyes, or the size of my hands, or my beard, or what have you.

Yeah... Tell me again how looks aren't important. :roll:

_Sal · Sep 18, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
I'm sorry, but the odds are - unless your guy's a twig or a fitness freak - he's eventually going to wind up with a "bear" body and a beer gut at least somewhat reminiscent of the man I pictured. It's pretty normal, in point of fact.

it's not normal at all to end up with a huge gut if one takes care of oneself...my guy is 67 and currently in training for the fourth time for the Boston Marathon. I am younger in years but I am quite certain he is younger from a health perspective.

I am like Smoke...I could never be with a partner who drank or ate excessively and did not take care of themselves...as for looks they come way, way behind character and behaviour...I have slept with some beautiful men but that attraction withers fast if there is no personality, or ability to treat me as an equal which comes from ego strength and self confidence.

_Sal · Sep 18, 2016

Henrin said:
Nah. The guy in the top picture needs to change his workout so it's not just his pecks and upper abs that have any definition.

picture number one looks just fine...juuuuuuuuuuust fine

picture number two looks like a cardiac arrest is imminent

Gathomas88 · Sep 18, 2016

_Sal said:
it's not normal at all to end up with a huge gut if one takes care of oneself...my guy is 67 and currently in training for the fourth time for the Boston Marathon. I am younger in years but I am quite certain he is younger from a health perspective.

Which would put him in the "fitness freak" category I mentioned previously.

I'm 28, and reasonably fit. I'm certainly not planning on running any Marathons any time soon (or ever, in point of fact). The two to three miles once or twice a week required to keep in line with the Army fitness standard are more than boring, painful, and time consuming enough, thank you kindly. lol

I am like Smoke...I could never be with a partner who drank or ate excessively and did not take care of themselves...as for looks they come way, way behind character and behaviour...I have slept with some beautiful men but that attraction withers fast if there is no personality, or ability to treat me as an equal which comes from ego strength and self confidence.

Alright... Not to be a jerk or anything, but you do realize this is a self-contradictory statement. Right?

"Looks aren't that important" doesn't really mesh with "I could never be with a partner who drank or ate excessively and did not take care of themselves." You're basically saying you couldn't be with a fat, out of shape, guy, because you find that "unattractive" on several different levels. You're just saying it in a really round-about and indirect way.

So, clearly, that aspect of a man's "looks" very much does matter to you.

This seems to be the road-block I run into on this issue with women more often than not, to be honest. We're both starting at point A) and ultimately winding up at point B) in the longrun.

However, where I (and most guys) just cut the crap and attack point B) directly (i.e. Sorry, but she's ugly... This ain't happenin'), a lot of women seem to want to make a bunch of crazy detours through points C to Z beforehand to justify the thing to the themselves, and mask what they're actually doing.

Whether from us, or from themselves, I'm really not entirely sure. :lol:

In any case, the bottom line here is that pretty much EVERYONE has an innate preference for "attractive" sexual and romantic partners. That's not all there is to the equation, obviously, but it undeniably plays a major role, and most people would objectively prefer - all things being equal - their present partner to appear more attractive, rather than less.

There's really no getting around that. It's just simple biology and human nature.

_Sal · Sep 18, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
Which would put him in the "fitness freak" category I mentioned previously.

I'm 28, and reasonably fit. I'm certainly not planning on running any Marathons any time soon (or ever, in point of fact). The two to three miles once or twice a week required to keep in line with the Army fitness standard are more than boring, painful, and time consuming enough, thank you kindly. lol

I hear you, nothing could invoke me to marathon but part of that is physical, my muscles are built for sprinting not for long term endurance (fast twitch vs slow twitch)...that is just reality, but aside from that it is also a personality type...and I'm not it.

Alright... Not to be a jerk or anything, but you do realize this is a self-contradictory statement. Right?

no it isn't contradictory in any way

"Looks aren't that important" doesn't really mesh with "I could never be with a partner who drank or ate excessively and did not take care of themselves." You're basically saying you couldn't be with a fat, out of shape, guy, because you find that "unattractive" on several different levels. You're just saying it in a really round-about and indirect way.

no, I just couldn't be with someone who doesn't respect their body enough to put good wholesome simple food into it in the correct quantity

I have friends that are fat, their eating habits are none of my business, it doesn't affect our friendship, but I don't live with them eat with them, work out with them

my partner is different...he has to be on the same wave length as me...it's about values, attitude and sharing view points

when I met my guy he was 50 or more pounds over weight and one of the nicest, kindest most supportive human beings I have ever met

I didn't hesitate for one second to go out with him due to his weight

he began to exercise when I did and ate what I cooked then together we began to change our approach to a more holistic "everything"

so no, you are wrong

it's not about being physically beautiful...it's way bigger than that

Gathomas88 · Sep 18, 2016

_Sal said:
I hear you, nothing could invoke me to marathon but part of that is physical, my muscles are built for sprinting not for long term endurance (fast twitch vs slow twitch)...that is just reality, but aside from that it is also a personality type...and I'm not it.

no it isn't contradictory in any way

no, I just couldn't be with someone who doesn't respect their body enough to put good wholesome simple food into it in the correct quantity

I have friends that are fat, their eating habits are none of my business, it doesn't affect our friendship, but I don't live with them eat with them, work out with them

my partner is different...he has to be on the same wave length as me...it's about values, attitude and sharing view points

when I met my guy he was 50 or more pounds over weight and one of the nicest, kindest most supportive human beings I have ever met

I didn't hesitate for one second to go out with him due to his weight

he began to exercise when I did and ate what I cooked then together we began to change our approach to a more holistic "everything"

so no, you are wrong

it's not about being physically beautiful...it's way bigger than that

In other words, you took someone with a personality you liked, but not the physicality, and changed their habits to bring them physicality more in line with your own desires. Again... No offense intended to you, but I'm not really sure if this scenario actually discredits my argument here. lol

I've actually had the same thought regarding a couple of girls I've met in real life.

i.e. "Ya know... I like you, and if I could just persuade you to hit the gym for a few months, you'd probably be a knock-out."

As I recall, I took quite a lot of crap from some people around here for admitting to having that thought. :lol:

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