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LGBT, Not Born That Way?

As far as I'm concerned, no, I don't imagine there's a force on earth that could make me do that. Others, however, proved otherwise, and I do them no injustice when I hold them accountable for their actions.

I see. So you just believe yourself to be this superior individual unlike those weak inferior gay people. Who are you to hold anyone accountable? What authority do you have?
 
I grew up in Mormon country. Explain that.

:confused: okedoke: You grew up in a geographic area dominated by Mormons. Probably this was connected to your parent's choice of where to live, and where to remain, while you were between the ages of 3 and 18.
 
The only way for my statement to be contradictory is if we were to accept the born that way proposition, a proposition that not only lacks scientific evidence, but also observational one. What I find amusing in this topic is how everyone is regurgitating the born that way proposition in a topic citing a research review that rejects it.

You can't simply make people gay with exposure to gay culture.
 
:confused: okedoke: You grew up in a geographic area dominated by Mormons. Probably this was connected to your parent's choice of where to live, and where to remain, while you were between the ages of 3 and 18.

You are absolutely no fun.
 
I personally do not think we (any of us) have the right to make a public statement about who someone is and whether they were born this way or if it was a learned trait. That is a question only they can answer at best - maybe they can't. But, we need to stop bringing up the issue - It's like saying Gorillas were born to like Bananas or they learned to like Bananas. All that matters is that they are Gorillas and they eat Bananas.

I completely agree...except where young people are involved. We live in a world where children look for ways to stand out...to be individual... To be different. It might be purple hair. It could be nose rings. You get the idea.

If I had a child who professed to be gay, I could not HELP myself from having lots of heart-to-hearts with him to try to make sure it was not a choice made because of wanting to stand out in the crowd.
 
I completely agree...except where young people are involved. We live in a world where children look for ways to stand out...to be individual... To be different. It might be purple hair. It could be nose rings. You get the idea.

If I had a child who professed to be gay, I could not HELP myself from having lots of heart-to-hearts with him to try to make sure it was not a choice made because of wanting to stand out in the crowd.

Declaring ones'self to be Trans is also becoming a weird fad. Why wouldn't an awkward, possibly bullied, child, already going through the regular confusions and uncertainties of puberty, latch onto a life-vest of a status that makes one unique, kinda cool, and immune to personal attack or criticism in today's PC school culture?
 
Declaring ones'self to be Trans is also becoming a weird fad. Why wouldn't an awkward, possibly bullied, child, already going through the regular confusions and uncertainties of puberty, latch onto a life-vest of a status that makes one unique, kinda cool, and immune to personal attack or criticism in today's PC school culture?

Completely agree. It's nice to see that we have common ground here. I doubt our thoughts are politically correct, of course. But me? I could care less.
 
New research review finds "no scientific evidence" to support the "born that way" view of human sexuality and gender.

Number 50 ~ Fall 2016 - The New Atlantis



Biased propaganda or legitimate review of literature?


Who knows what makes people have a sexual orientation or even a preference. In the end, it all boils down to what you can get anyway. I may prefer young blonde women aged 23, but at 53, I'll settle for the knowledge that my 43 year-old wife is probably the best I can get at this point. So, I'll stay married. But, if she left me for some reason or another, I'd probably swing for the fences and try landing me a 33 year old. :)
 
Who knows what makes people have a sexual orientation or even a preference. In the end, it all boils down to what you can get anyway. I may prefer young blonde women aged 23, but at 53, I'll settle for the knowledge that my 43 year-old wife is probably the best I can get at this point. So, I'll stay married. But, if she left me for some reason or another, I'd probably swing for the fences and try landing me a 33 year old. :)

OMG. Really? Your wife is the best you can get? What a lame thing to say.
 
You can't simply make people gay with exposure to gay culture.
Isn't that the WHOLE point? It has nothing to do with whether people choose to be gay or are born that way. Most people realize that most people who identify as gay are neither designated to that orientation solely by their biology nor do they wake up one day and decide they want to be sexually attracted to the same sex. The real conversation, the one always under the surface, is whether people are INFLICTED with being gay. Is it conditioned, socialized, and/or taught to people? If it is, then for the sake of protecting impressionable younger minds from the corruption/contagion of a deviation of sexuality, should they not be shielded from the environmental and cultural influences that give rise to the infliction? For those who are inflicted, they may not have chosen it but can't they CHOOSE not to spread it to others and perhaps make an effort to change themselves? If it is not innate or immutable then does it not become a matter of choice of whether people choose to remain gay when they may take steps to alter their sexual attractions?This is the post-gay reality of the neoconservative movement. Homosexual behavior is the sin, but the identity tied to its underlying attractions is a social disease. A manifestation of a hedonistic culture, self perpetuating through the indoctrination of a new generation of youth by the narrative of an oppressed culture. There is no "gay". It is purely a social construction and to even acknowledge it is to validate its existence and to perpetuate its influence. That is the new model of the "enlightened" conservative and the basis of the new policies that have been sweeping the world to stifle the expression of gay culture or any positive representation it may have. Literature reviews such as these are both a gift and a burden. They expel the old tenets and talking points, but they only open new questions when to some, they are seen as absolute proof that homosexuality is a cultural and social disease.
 
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Declaring ones'self to be Trans is also becoming a weird fad. Why wouldn't an awkward, possibly bullied, child, already going through the regular confusions and uncertainties of puberty, latch onto a life-vest of a status that makes one unique, kinda cool, and immune to personal attack or criticism in today's PC school culture?

Ah yes, this angle-

b0e0506dc0239f842ce1633ca4aecfd2.jpg


If SRS is attempted, they must be absolutely sure that they are trans. Of course, adopting anti-freedom views "for the children" is a popular angle for authoritarians.
 
Isn't that the WHOLE point? It has nothing to do with whether people choose to be gay or are born that way. Most people realize that most people who identify as gay are neither designated to that orientation solely by their biology nor do they wake up one day and decide they want to be sexually attracted to the same sex. The real conversation, the one always under the surface, is whether people are INFLICTED with being gay. Is it conditioned, socialized, and/or taught to people? If it is, then for the sake of protecting impressionable younger minds from the corruption/contagion of a deviation of sexuality, should they not be shielded from the environmental and cultural influences that give rise to the infliction? For those who are inflicted, they may not have chosen it but can't they CHOOSE not to spread it to others and perhaps make an effort to change themselves? If it is not innate or immutable then does it not become a matter of choice of whether people choose to remain gay when they may take steps to alter their sexual attractions?This is the post-gay reality of the neoconservative movement. Homosexual behavior is the sin, but the identity tied to its underlying attractions is a social disease. A manifestation of a hedonistic culture, self perpetuating through the indoctrination of a new generation of youth by the narrative of an oppressed culture. There is no "gay". It is purely a social construction and to even acknowledge it is to validate its existence and to perpetuate its influence. That is the new model of the "enlightened" conservative and the basis of the new policies that have been sweeping the world to stifle the expression of gay culture or any positive representation it may have. Literature reviews such as these are both a gift and a burden. They expel the old tenets and talking points, but they only open new questions when to some, they are seen as absolute proof that homosexuality is a cultural and social disease.

The idea that it only takes views of the male form to "convert" little kids to homosexuals makes sports like football, where grown men tackle each other in tights, all the more strange for conservatives to enjoy.

Of course, that idea is ridiculous. And conservatives seem to lack the imagination to come up with any other way for people to become gay than simply being gay from birth or being exposed to gay culture.
 
Ah yes, this angle-

b0e0506dc0239f842ce1633ca4aecfd2.jpg


If SRS is attempted, they must be absolutely sure that they are trans. Of course, adopting anti-freedom views "for the children" is a popular angle for authoritarians.

So basically a boy can consent to having his testicles cut off, but not consent to sticking his dick in a woman. Fun world we live in. Old enough to be castrated, but not old enough for sex. How fun.

Btw, having more than a million people plus being castrated by doctors as a treatment is insane and medieval.
 
OMG. Really? Your wife is the best you can get? What a lame thing to say.

People settle all the time. It might not be the nicest thing to say about the person you're with, but both men and women are out there settling for what they can get.
 
If I had a child who professed to be gay, I could not HELP myself from having lots of heart-to-hearts with him to try to make sure it was not a choice made because of wanting to stand out in the crowd.

I don't think most kids would want to declare themselves gay just to stand out.

In my experience, not only was I bullied for it in school, but my family (mainly my mom) was angered by it when they found out. And my life was pretty much a living Hell for awhile, and I'm still having family issues because of it.

And living in Texas, homophobia is pretty common over here. But keep in mind this is only my anecdotal experience.
 
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OMG. Really? Your wife is the best you can get? What a lame thing to say.

My wife is great...maybe not as great as she was at 29, but great nonetheless. I'm happy with her for sure. But, no way can she hold a candle to a hot 23 year old? I'm not going to lie.
 
People settle all the time. It might not be the nicest thing to say about the person you're with, but both men and women are out there settling for what they can get.

It's less abut settling than it is knowing that at 53, I am not about to go out and hook up with a 23 year old. But, I certainly would if I could. :)

I'm just smart enough to know that even attempting it would be detrimental to my health, well being and retirement fund.
 
New research review finds "no scientific evidence" to support the "born that way" view of human sexuality and gender.

Number 50 ~ Fall 2016 - The New Atlantis



Biased propaganda or legitimate review of literature?



Very well done, but I learned nothing new there.

But, because it's American and finding an unbiased American anything is rare, have a look at the bona fides...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Atlantis_(journal)

It's parent..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_and_Public_Policy_Center

These are very right wing organizations, pro military, anti-global warming etc. I call this propaganda. Like creation of the universe I doubt this question will ever be answered to anyone's satisfaction. It does not change the fact the person is what he or she is and I see this is a subtle attempt to show LGBT's as "abnormal".
 
I don't know why he'd do that, nor do you, just like neither of us knows why a man or a woman develops an attachment to a certain paraphilia. No matter how fierce the attachment is, we don't frivolously and ignorantly invoke science to sanction it.



As far as I'm concerned, no, I don't imagine there's a force on earth that could make me do that. Others, however, proved otherwise, and I do them no injustice when I hold them accountable for their actions.



Acceptance of homosexuality in the U.S is a fresh affair; it'd be improper to use it as a gauge. Countries with a longer history and more established tradition of acceptance of homosexuality are the benchmark. In a recent YouGov poll, nearly half of British youth profess not to belong to either ends of the sexual spectrum, but to be somewhere in the middle. The percentage is much lower among older British generations.(LINK)That is to say, longer exposure to a certain societal view/practice from an early age greatly biases human behavior. It's unfortunate that I have to explain this to those that proclaim themselves the blessed enlightened.



No one comes out "heterosexual"; we're so by nature. As such, why would I object to people for being that?



You seem to be placing a lot of values on rather esoteric and journalistically questionable outlets. The International Business Times is a blog with a past of illegal hiring practices, and the other is a right wing "think tank" that drew no conclusions but rather patterned known scientific work to the conclusion they wanted. I suspect you are not interested in learning anything new, but rather seek to have affirmation of your established views. I understand, I was like that once.

However you cannot read about a group of people and then profess to know them and their behavior, no matter how good a reader you are. I suggest, since you seem to have a high interest in this, is to acquaint yourself with some gay people or transgendered, you already know some bi-sexuals, you just don't know it.

In the end, there is no law outside of claims of religiosity that gives me or you the right to judge or even know the bedroom habits of others, and neither does the government have right to the nation's bedrooms.

I am a recovered alcoholic/addict. I had a hard time first getting sober 26 years ago, story made short was I ended up at a gay/lesbian AA meeting, it/they saved my life...since then I have come to know that one significant difference I see in gay men is that they are less likely to anger, less likey to put down, and less likely to judge. The kind of people I like to be around.

In my time I have seen every myth about gay men get blown out of the water, and once you become secure with your own sexuality, then you'll see LGBT differently
 
So basically a boy can consent to having his testicles cut off, but not consent to sticking his dick in a woman. Fun world we live in. Old enough to be castrated, but not old enough for sex. How fun.

Btw, having more than a million people plus being castrated by doctors as a treatment is insane and medieval.

No, i didn't say that. I think medical decisions for minors should be agreed upon by both parents and doctors.
 
Declaring ones'self to be Trans is also becoming a weird fad. Why wouldn't an awkward, possibly bullied, child, already going through the regular confusions and uncertainties of puberty, latch onto a life-vest of a status that makes one unique, kinda cool, and immune to personal attack or criticism in today's PC school culture?

:shock:
:lamo:lamo
Id wish i had more but I dont . . holy **** thats funny.
 
:shrug:

I don't think that anyone who has spent time observing humans would come away with an impression other than that we are prone to feedback loops. The "Born That Way" platform and insistence, I think, was always about political, rather than scientific aims. In the next few years, such a rigid position will probably become the new Hate Speech :roll:

I don't know about transgenderism. But as far as sexual orientation I would say there is no proof that people are born into a sexual orientation. I don't even know how you would begin to test that. Normally when people figure out that they are attracted to this or that is when they are starting puberty. Sexual attraction if it's instinctual at all doesn't manifest until long after a person is born.

I think the "born that way" mantra is just a way to say that they can't help it.
 
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No, i didn't say that. I think medical decisions for minors should be agreed upon by both parents and doctors.

The doctors are interested in getting paid and the parents are many times ignorant. I'm not sure why anyone would think cutting off a child's healthy testicles is ever an acceptable idea though.
 
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