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So I Told My Friend He's a Drunk Today

Crovax said:
Despite your anecdotal experience, AA is pretty much worthless and has a cult like mentality to boot. People who study addictions show the failure rate is north of 90%, yet the organization itself claims to be 75% successful.
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It depends on how you determine success. The success rate of curing the worst cancers in the later stages is terrible. However to judge the doctors on their success in treating these people is stupid. There 75% success rate is in the people that can be saved. Unfortunately too many people wait until too much mental and physical damage has been done to recover. For a lot of people AA is the first step in the long road of a recovering alcoholic. Like diabetes the disease never goes away. So in reality nobody is really ever cured. However they can put the problem in remission. In most cases that is many years after their first AA meeting.
 
lurchadams said:
I've known Cal for well over 20 years. We became friends at work, he went on to a different company but we remained friends. He used to coach our company softball team. He's got an undergrad, an MBA, and 2 PHD's. He's got a lot of knowledge but not as much common sense as I wish he could have. Anyway, he's my friend, and I love him.

Cal got divorced, roughly the same time as I did, 2 years ago. As friends, we stopped hanging out for awhile because his wife (now his ex) didn't like hanging around our kids. When Cal got divorced we started hanging out again. Cal is still not over his divorce. His ex-wife is a malignant narcissist. She had and has zero empathy for Cal. She announced she was dumping him at work, in the lobby of their office building, the day before Cal was going to head on vacation. He fainted. She couldn't wait to do it, in private, after Cal returned. Suffice to say, Cal had a pretty ****ing ****ty time on that vacation. Anyway, that's the kind of horrible person she is.

Anyway, Cal's still not over her, although me, his family and all his other friends tell him he does not want her back. He agrees and says, "keep telling me that". Well, ok. But he's got to realize it himself.

So, mourning the end of his marriage 2 years ago Cal started self-medicating with booze. Hard alcohol. Every time I've seen him the past 2 years he's had some kind of drink goin'.

He hosted me and my brother, and his former nephew Christmas for dinner. Cal passed out in his recliner right after dinner. We all ended up cleaning up, putting the food away, then we just left and locked him in. This is when I realized I had to do what I could do to stop this. I called Cal at work the next day and told him for the first time, "Cal, I'm worried about your drinking". He said, "Yeah, it's a bit of a problem".

Anyway, he lives between where my kids' mom lives and where I live. After dropping off the kids, I usually stop by and visit with Cal. Tonight I became a real asshole. When Cal let me in tonight, I said, "Hi, Cal! How's the drinking going?". He joked "it's still going, ha, ha, I'm still doing it!, ha ha". Then later this evening he said, "ha ha, a few hours into work I get the shakes, ha, ha".

And I just ****ing lost it. I said, "So Cal! You're a drunk!". He said, "Yeah, I'm a drunk". So I told him, "we're going to find a meeting by your house, when I get back Saturday you and I are going to an AA meeting". And he agreed. So we're going to Cal's first AA meeting this Saturday. It's a good start!

I'm hopeful!
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Remember AA is the first step in a life long solution. What it takes to put the disease in remission for a lifetime takes a lifetime.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
It depends on how you determine success. The success rate of curing the worst cancers in the later stages is terrible. However to judge the doctors on their success in treating these people is stupid. There 75% success rate is in the people that can be saved. Unfortunately too many people wait until too much mental and physical damage has been done to recover. For a lot of people AA is the first step in the long road of a recovering alcoholic. Like diabetes the disease never goes away. So in reality nobody is really ever cured. However they can put the problem in remission. In most cases that is many years after their first AA meeting.
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That’s the problem right there. You don’t go the a meeting if you have diabetes you take medicine. I’m sorry that pointing out the anti-science is being being a “dick” or an “asshole”
 
Crovax said:
That’s the problem right there. You don’t go the a meeting if you have diabetes you take medicine. I’m sorry that pointing out the anti-science is being being a “dick” or an “asshole”
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You have to make changes in your lifestyle for both diseases. While a nutritionist helps the diabetic AA helps the Alcoholic. Different problems require different treatments. I hope this clears things up for you.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Remember AA is the first step in a life long solution. What it takes to put the disease in remission for a lifetime takes a lifetime.
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I'm sure his AA brethren and his counselors will tell him that, thank you.
 
Keridan said:
You are 100% right. It refers to a higher power and leaves it up to the person trying to get better to decide what that higher power is. Some groups are more religious than others. There are people who are completely turned off by the idea, however, and groups for them, too.

Luckily, this is not a disease that is new to our community and there are tons out there who have found the help they need and long to share that with others. There are a lot of groups of all colors to help and other programs that are non-profit that will help in any way they can.

Without the help I have received, I would not have my wife and two sons to make my life worth waking up every day. I'm one of those who have benefited and is delighted to help whenever possible. I get the same sense from you.
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---Oh Hell to the YEAH, same here. The best twenty years of my entire life is due to the fact that I "pulled up" from a nosedive that would have landed me in prison or in a pine box, said nosedive being a ten year love affair with cocaine and then crack.

And here's where it gets really bizarre...it wasn't court that landed me in AA, it was a personal decision. Once I decided to go with a 12-step program, I of course went to a Cocaine Anonymous meeting, then another different CA meeting, then another, then another.
Guess what? I figured out that the Cocaine Anonymous meetings were really places where addicts could go to find new dealers, but worse than that, when people weren't connecting with dealers, they were telling "fish stories".
The grams began to turn into kilos, so to speak, and I wound up leaving these meetings with a burning desire to call my dealer.
Sigh, out of the frying pan and into the fire.
So then a friend who was a recovering drunk said,

"Why don't you just go to an AA meeting, those guys really know what they're doing more or less, and all you have to do is -- when they talk about booze, you just plug the word "coke" into your brain, it's the same program only they won't fall for your BS."
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And he was right. The first two meetings I tried going to, one group expressed doubts that I could do that mental trick, and the next one was a "Baby Jesus" love fest but the third one I found by accident, and it was right across the street from where I lived in Culver City. I had no more excuses. When your regular meeting is 200 yards away from where you live...

A couple of members looked at me funny when I said that I wasn't a drunk but that I was a crackhead, but the guy running the meeting said he understood, and that I was more than welcome. And I stayed, and I kept going to the meetings.
The effort "took"...but not right away. I got sober and remained sober for about a month, then fell off the wagon, then got sober again for another two months, then fell off the wagon again...same thing on and off for about a year but then I finally managed.

I moved away from Los Angeles because of a woman I'd been chasing since 1984 and she had moved to Arkansas, so I moved there to be with her, I guess she finally decided I was a good catch. I didn't even tell folks in the Arkansas meetings about my subterfuge, as far as they were concerned I was a drunk AND an addict. Same thing when we moved to Texas.

I haven't been taking in meetings regularly in the last four years, sobriety feels like my normal, not to mention I am frightened at the very prospect of trying cocaine again. I am convinced it would stop my heart instantly and kill me. Call it health awareness if you want, I know how much damage I've done to my body. I came to that realization years ago, maybe 2009.
I still do go occasionally but not every day, more like once every couple of months.

So I understand that people might think 12-step meetings don't work. I just think AA meetings DO work, and maybe not all of them work equally well. I also think that just copying the 12-step concept and applying it carbon copy style to other substances might not be the best approach, I just know that the drunks seem to have it figured out better than the rest of the folks.
It worked for me.

My health isn't the greatest anymore but I am still here, still sober, and very grateful.
 
Good on you for telling him what he needed to hear.

I have the same reservations of AA that many posters here have. If I were to ever need that kind of help I'm pretty sure I'd rather go to some of the other programs around here that I've heard great things about. With that said, my older brother has been sober for 5 years after being a drug addict hooked on pills and alcohol for almost a decade. He was sent to AA after a few months in jail and when he got out, the guy that was his contact in AA really took him under his wing, gave him a job and told him to take the program serious. The guy totally changed my brothers life around after I had long ago given up on that ever happening and he still attends meetings weekly. So it might just be a case of needing to try a few treatments and find whats best for him. If he's serious about needing help that's probably the biggest factor in getting him well again.
 
JasperL said:
LOL, the religious groups weren't for me either and in E. Tennessee there are indeed a lot of them. My regular group isn't that way. A few of the members/regulars are fairly religious, but that's fine, they say their bit and the meeting moves on. It's also downtown within an easy walk of the main live theaters in town, and the meeting's at noon, so we'll get (usually less famous) entertainers coming through on occasion.

What's kind of funny in my area anyway is the fundamentalist/evangelical churches aren't the ones that host meetings, because of the "Higher power" stuff. To those churches there can be only ONE higher power! I didn't notice it for years until someone pointed it out, but the churches that host meetings around here are the 'liberal' churches like the downtown Episcopal church, Unitarians, and whichever of the Presbyterian branches is the less evangelical one (I forget which). The hard core churches have an AA based program, called Celebrate Recovery, and those meetings are like revivals. Pretty entertaining one time, which is all I could take... :peace
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East Tennesse, eh? Yeah, you're too far from Nash-Vegas, LOL.
Did Leon Russell ever show up? That's the funny thing about meetings in Los Angeles, sometimes you get a surprise visitor.
It has happened to me a bunch of times.

Yes, I realize it's not kosher to name names, I'm terrible, aren't I? :lamo
 
Hari Seldon said:
Not you. Your comments were civil and empathetic even if you believe AA is not very helpful.
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That's my point as well. A person could jump up and say AA isn't reliable, or that it doesn't work for nearly as many people as one might be tempted to believe, and I wouldn't have had a problem with it.
But read Mr. Crovax's first post about it, then read his "sounds like you and your buddy need a drink" :cheers: post immediately after, and there's no way to come to any other conclusion than "He's decided to be a world class dickhead" about the whole thing.

Here is what I got from his "insightful" article in The Atlantic:

Alcoholics Anonymous has more than 2 million members worldwide, and the structure and support it offers have helped many people. But it is not enough for everyone.
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It's not enough for everyone? Of course it's not enough for everyone, and I don't know anybody who thinks it is enough for EVERYONE.

Sometimes a five year stint in prison after your third DUI happens and you wind up seriously maiming someone is enough.

Sometimes six months in the ICU and another four months afterward where you're almost a vegetable is enough.

Sometimes DEATH itself is enough.

And yes, sometimes, for some people, some other kind of treatment program is enough, and good for them if that treatment program worked.
Maybe the fact that you had to shell out forty grand to stay at Passages Malibu is enough, because shelling out the equivalent of a 2018 Lexus for a months stay at a posh seaside resort where you can't get drunk or laid might remind you that you have a lot riding on success.

But let me remind everyone that sometimes it's those posh seaside resort style treatment programs that produce washouts, too...or worse. Passages Malibu horror stories



And it's not just Passages, either.

Malibu is just one upper crusty resort town that is overloaded with overpriced overly snooty celebitchy rehab centers staffed by crooks and con men and featuring drunken or loaded people walking around naked and covered in lacerations and seaweed on the streets. There are others.

South Florida experts are telling people "Stop sending your children and your loved ones to South Florida because we're sending them back in body bags."

So okay it's not a problem saying that AA doesn't work. It doesn't work for everybody, because treatment of any kind doesn't work for everybody. I'll even go so far as to say that treatment doesn't work for a lot of "everybodys".

Just don't be a giant asshole about it, that's all.
Overcompensating for your own inadequacies by acting like some "internet tough guy" when someone is talking about helping a friend who is an addict is pretty ****ed up, maybe as ****ed up as it can possibly get.
 
lurchadams said:
I'm sure his AA brethren and his counselors will tell him that, thank you.
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Oh they will. The problem is we all respond differently to problems as well as treatment. It is a strength and a weakness depending on how we adapt.
 
Sounds good that Cal is saying he does have a problem, thing is AA doesn't work for everyone but it's a start. If Cal is an alcoholic he most likely has an addiction problem with drugs also. In fact the meds he is taking may be contributing to his drinking problem. Usually with an addiction problem your life has to get bad enough that you just can't live that way any longer and Cal will need to realize he's an addict and truly believe it.

Let us know how Cal is doing and don't be sad if it takes a while for Cal to find a way to better himself. Sometimes it's an easy task for someone to quit drinking and or using drugs but many times it's quite the feat to stop and many never do, they die from the disease of addiction. Sad but true. Many stop for a while and relapse.

Good luck to Cal.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
East Tennesse, eh? Yeah, you're too far from Nash-Vegas, LOL.
Did Leon Russell ever show up? That's the funny thing about meetings in Los Angeles, sometimes you get a surprise visitor.
It has happened to me a bunch of times.

Yes, I realize it's not kosher to name names, I'm terrible, aren't I? :lamo
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There's only one household name I know of, a country singer, who came and I wasn't there. I won't name him because I don't think he's public and wasn't there to confirm the story. ;) The ones I've been aware of are mostly band members or crew, and I'm sure I've met others who I didn't recognize. As you know they don't walk in with "Hey, I'm Eric, lead guitarist for _____ and I'm an alcoholic!" and I'm old and out of touch with the music scene. Might recognize some bluegrass pickers... :peace
 
Crovax said:
That’s the problem right there. You don’t go the a meeting if you have diabetes you take medicine. I’m sorry that pointing out the anti-science is being being a “dick” or an “asshole”
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You just don't get, and I suspect you'll never get it.
It's not the fact that you don't believe AA works for anyone, it's YOU, it's the way you come off...nothing else.
Simply put, you searched for the most ****ed up thing you could possibly say to someone and said it, and then, as if that wasn't ****ed up enough, you looked for something even more ****ed up and said that, too.

And that's all, and I am holding you accountable for acting like an asshole, not that I think it will matter...to you...because it probably doesn't, and won't.
 
JasperL said:
There's only one household name I know of, a country singer, who came and I wasn't there. I won't name him because I don't think he's public and wasn't there to confirm the story. ;) The ones I've been aware of are mostly band members or crew, and I'm sure I've met others who I didn't recognize. As you know they don't walk in with "Hey, I'm Eric, lead guitarist for _____ and I'm an alcoholic!" and I'm old and out of touch with the music scene. Might recognize some bluegrass pickers... :peace
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In my case, there was no way for Ozzy to hide, he's unmistakable. And he was a class act, by the way.
I am not the biggest Ozzy fan in the world, I've never bought his records and I don't seek out his stuff, but I recognize that he does what he does and does it well.
So I didn't even realize that he had a show at The Forum that night and only found out later, because his home is pretty far away from Culver City but The Forum is maybe only ten minutes away from what used to be my regular meeting, so it made sense that he dropped in there, whereas he might normally be a regular somewhere else. This was in 1995, by the way.
 
Well, Cal's first meeting is tomorrow. I was going to meet him there because the only meeting I could find was between our two towns, Cal and I live about 40 min apart.

I decided, however it would be best if I just picked him up at his house and brought him back. Friday night's a big drinking night and I'm sure he'll either be still drunk or hungover even by the time of the meeting. So I don't want him behind the wheel of a car - I'll live - it's only an additional hour round trip for me.
 
ThoughtIsFree said:
Sounds good that Cal is saying he does have a problem, thing is AA doesn't work for everyone but it's a start. If Cal is an alcoholic he most likely has an addiction problem with drugs also. In fact the meds he is taking may be contributing to his drinking problem. Usually with an addiction problem your life has to get bad enough that you just can't live that way any longer and Cal will need to realize he's an addict and truly believe it.

Let us know how Cal is doing and don't be sad if it takes a while for Cal to find a way to better himself. Sometimes it's an easy task for someone to quit drinking and or using drugs but many times it's quite the feat to stop and many never do, they die from the disease of addiction. Sad but true. Many stop for a while and relapse.

Good luck to Cal.
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I think I'd know if Cal was abusing drugs. He admitted he's addicted to booze - why would he withhold other information?

Anyway, thanks for your sage advice and kind wishes!
 
lurchadams said:
I think I'd know if Cal was abusing drugs. He admitted he's addicted to booze - why would he withhold other information?

Anyway, thanks for your sage advice and kind wishes!
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He may not realize the combination of certain drugs with alcohol can cause addiction and possibly bring the addiction on faster. Do you know what prescription drug or drugs he is taking? If a doctor knows his patient has an addiction problem, the doctor, if a good doctor, will not prescribe addictive drugs for the patient. Since your friend is just now admitting he has a drinking problem he most likely would have no idea the drug or drugs prescribed by a doctor may be causing issues. Ask him if he's shared his drinking problem with his doctor, of course some doctors don't care that much but they should.
 
ThoughtIsFree said:
He may not realize the combination of certain drugs with alcohol can cause addiction and possibly bring the addiction on faster. Do you know what prescription drug or drugs he is taking? If a doctor knows his patient has an addiction problem, the doctor, if a good doctor, will not prescribe addictive drugs for the patient. Since your friend is just now admitting he has a drinking problem he most likely would have no idea the drug or drugs prescribed by a doctor may be causing issues. Ask him if he's shared his drinking problem with his doctor, of course some doctors don't care that much but they should.
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You know, he has two providers, a psychiatrist who can prescribe him his meds and a counselor who is aware of his lifestyle, plus his brother who's a PHD and retired counselor who is aware of his drinking and to whom he speaks daily. I'd be shocked if was is occurring now to you has not yet occured to these other 3 professionals helping him.

Does that make sense?
 
lurchadams said:
You know, he has two providers, a psychiatrist who can prescribe him his meds and a counselor who is aware of his lifestyle, plus his brother who's a PHD and retired counselor who is aware of his drinking and to whom he speaks daily. I'd be shocked if was is occurring now to you has not yet occured to these other 3 professionals helping him.

Does that make sense?
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You wouldn't think, with three professionals involved, it would be happening but wouldn't hurt to ask him what he's taking. AA members will pick up on it, I would imagine, if he is taking addictive prescription drugs, lots of experience there.
 
ThoughtIsFree said:
You wouldn't think, with three professionals involved, it would be happening but wouldn't hurt to ask him what he's taking. AA members will pick up on it, I would imagine, if he is taking addictive prescription drugs, lots of experience there.
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He is taking several medications - he's over 65 - some of them are to treat medical conditions, such as high blood pressure, and one other, he told me was prescribed by his shrink to fight depression.

He's on no painkillers/opioids of which I'm aware. He has a bad reaction whenever he smokes, MJ so he seldom does it. I appreciate your heads up on this, however I think the only issue we need to address is his drinking.
 
lurchadams said:
I've known Cal for well over 20 years. We became friends at work, he went on to a different company but we remained friends. He used to coach our company softball team. He's got an undergrad, an MBA, and 2 PHD's. He's got a lot of knowledge but not as much common sense as I wish he could have. Anyway, he's my friend, and I love him.

Cal got divorced, roughly the same time as I did, 2 years ago. As friends, we stopped hanging out for awhile because his wife (now his ex) didn't like hanging around our kids. When Cal got divorced we started hanging out again. Cal is still not over his divorce. His ex-wife is a malignant narcissist. She had and has zero empathy for Cal. She announced she was dumping him at work, in the lobby of their office building, the day before Cal was going to head on vacation. He fainted. She couldn't wait to do it, in private, after Cal returned. Suffice to say, Cal had a pretty ****ing ****ty time on that vacation. Anyway, that's the kind of horrible person she is.

Anyway, Cal's still not over her, although me, his family and all his other friends tell him he does not want her back. He agrees and says, "keep telling me that". Well, ok. But he's got to realize it himself.

So, mourning the end of his marriage 2 years ago Cal started self-medicating with booze. Hard alcohol. Every time I've seen him the past 2 years he's had some kind of drink goin'.

He hosted me and my brother, and his former nephew Christmas for dinner. Cal passed out in his recliner right after dinner. We all ended up cleaning up, putting the food away, then we just left and locked him in. This is when I realized I had to do what I could do to stop this. I called Cal at work the next day and told him for the first time, "Cal, I'm worried about your drinking". He said, "Yeah, it's a bit of a problem".

Anyway, he lives between where my kids' mom lives and where I live. After dropping off the kids, I usually stop by and visit with Cal. Tonight I became a real asshole. When Cal let me in tonight, I said, "Hi, Cal! How's the drinking going?". He joked "it's still going, ha, ha, I'm still doing it!, ha ha". Then later this evening he said, "ha ha, a few hours into work I get the shakes, ha, ha".

And I just ****ing lost it. I said, "So Cal! You're a drunk!". He said, "Yeah, I'm a drunk". So I told him, "we're going to find a meeting by your house, when I get back Saturday you and I are going to an AA meeting". And he agreed. So we're going to Cal's first AA meeting this Saturday. It's a good start!

I'm hopeful!
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I wonder if he was divorce raped. What is his custody, child support, alimony situation? If he has a court-imposed elephant on his back, it could drive anyone to drink.
 
lurchadams said:
He is taking several medications - he's over 65 - some of them are to treat medical conditions, such as high blood pressure, and one other, he told me was prescribed by his shrink to fight depression.

He's on no painkillers/opioids of which I'm aware. He has a bad reaction whenever he smokes, MJ so he seldom does it. I appreciate your heads up on this, however I think the only issue we need to address is his drinking.
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If you feel you know it all, why discuss this on the forum? Drinking while on the drugs he's taking may kill him. I had a brother in law die a year and a half ago while taking opiates ( an opioid) and drinking. He quit the drinking, cut down on the pain pills but went back up in dosage when the pain got worse, he died in his recliner. He got his system all messed up stopping the drinking and changing the dose on the pain meds.

Much luck to your friend, this problem is very serious.
 
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SDET said:
I wonder if he was divorce raped. What is his custody, child support, alimony situation? If he has a court-imposed elephant on his back, it could drive anyone to drink.
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No, that's not the issue. He had to give his ex half his stuff but we all do in WA state in a divorce - I had to do it.

There's a question I asked you another thread you left unanswered. I remain very curious as to your response. Did you intentionally ignore it?
 
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