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So I Told My Friend He's a Drunk Today

Crovax said:
Oh please. I didn’t say what you are trying to do for your friend is hopeless. I just pointed out that AA won’t help you achieve your goals
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Well seeing as how you're an "internet tough guy" represented by an avatar of a guy wearing a Michael Jackson quasi-military uniform that looks like it mated with a chiffon party dress borrowed from Bristol Palin after DWTS, and seeing as how many of us have decided to be honest about our addiction, howzabout you actually get tough, step up and share if you have or had any addiction issues, and maybe we might get to the bottom of why you're so sure AA is a dead end.

bristol_custom-36491df0d9bc1d456e12afc722bad3a8d45430b8-s800-c85.jpg


Did AA fail YOU, or did you fail AA?

PS: Just love that pink blouse too, big fella. :giggle:
 
MovingPictures said:
It might not be a bad idea for you to offer to go with him to his counselor, or if he's not comfortable with you, perhaps another friend or family member.

Also, he should consider getting online and just sort of flirting with some women, so he can rebuild his confidence.
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Yeah, I didn't think of that. I'll text him the offer tomorrow, thank you!

Oh, dude. His situation with women right now and how he goes about wooing women with whom he's interested is a whole other story. To get into that now would detract totally from the main theme of this thread. I could start another one on Cal and his "pursuit" of women - but it's his business! Whoa! Yeah! <SMH>
 
Kobie said:
I'm glad that worked out in this case, but I've found that being mega-confrontational about a friend's issues can only make them worse or lead them to shut you out.
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It's working so far, Kob. I'm going to text him every day, tell him about my day, and provide the countdown to our meeting. No, Kob. I respectfully disagree my approach in this case is inappropriate.

Thank you, though.
 
JasperL said:
I don't understand the pretty common hostility to AA that's out there. Bottom line is it's a self help group, and they differ from group to group, city to city, sometimes dramatically. I've been to maybe 15 different groups and 10-12 of them weren't for me at all, a few I felt worse coming out than going in, with some real assholes leading them, but others were and are a great source of support for hundreds or thousands of people in my area. I've got a couple dozen good friends through the program, and it's a good thing. :peace
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Not so sure that it's a "pretty common" hatred, but yes, there is a core group of AA haters out there.
I say they're relatively small in number compared to the number of people it has helped. They're just loud, and a lot of them are still dealing with addiction, and prefer to blame AA instead of taking responsibility.

A lot of them bark like they're really tough and hard, and that's a big "tell"...because the louder the barking, the smaller the dog.
 
Kobie said:
While Crovax was kinda of a dick there, I also question AA's effectiveness. I know more people who washed out from AA than those it helped.
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<Sigh> thanks.
 
Crovax said:
Some time wasted listening to a bunch a idiots that haven’t adapted any new ideas since the 1930s?

That’s what reading some of the DP posts are for
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You know, you don't HAVE to be a jerk, you're just choosing to be.
 
Kobie said:
Read the Atlantic article that Crovax posted. It's quite insightful.
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I've read it and there's nothing new to me in that article, or that IMO contradicts what I've said to this point. What part do you think I don't understand? You quoted me and ignored every word, so I can't tell.

One main problem is that AA is often court-mandated; another is that medical treatments for alcohol abuse are rarely explored. The problem is that AA shouldn't be the only option available to anyone, yet by and large it is. That's yet another failure in our medical and mental health systems.
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I agree with all that. We get people coming in all the time who all they want is their slip signed they can give to the court or their employer and it's a waste of everyone's time.

And I agree with the failure of the medical and mental health, which you'll note if you read my comment instead of ignoring it, but you've not explained why crapping on the only option that IS available to lots of people in the reality we inhabit is helpful. It's fine to wish for a better reality, but I don't see how that helps someone who's got a problem of addiction today. I've got a list of books I recommend to people that are focused on the medical aspect of addiction and what might help, and TBH I don't see that working out too well either because there aren't a lot of facilities that take that approach - none in this area that I'm aware of. I also tell people AA isn't for everyone, but it does help many and it's worth a try. What's wrong with that, given your expertise on this subject?
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Not sure that the meds prescribed by his therapist (are they opiates?) are that great of an idea when he's already self medicating with the booze.
I'm conflicted because I am not sure if this is really alcoholism or his grief and stress over his dead marriage, but of course the key to whether or not it's alcoholism is whether one's life has become unmanageable, which it sounds like might be the case for Cal, or soon to be.

Anyway, it would be better if he could find a therapist who won't prescribe meds, except for maybe a wee bit of Zoloft and nothing else.

I carried a torch for my very first really serious live-in girlfriend for a very long time. I was ready to marry her but it never worked out. I even went back to Minnesota a couple of times to try and get her to come with me, no luck.
I did fall in love with a couple of other women, even married* one, but every once in a while Diane would creep into my thoughts again.

But it was never a factor in my addiction, my work stress and my toxic first marriage* were. The moment my toxic first marriage was over, I didn't quit right away but it wasn't long after. Once I finally dealt with my grief over that first failed toxic marriage I was able to deal with stopping my drug use.
Thoughts of Diane haunted me again but I didn't fall off the wagon. And that's odd because looking back, I think I loved Diane more than I loved my first wife, and I did love my first wife a great deal, but not the same way I loved Diane.

I do know guys who have sunken into addiction over failed relationships. We're supposedly tough, right? Yeah maybe, but not necessarily in the ways people might think. Many of us do fall hard for someone, and it eats us up inside.
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To the bolded: It's alcoholism, C.S. He gets the shakes while at work because his body craves the alcohol he must drink all in his personal time. If he's not already, he's on his way to bringing a thermos full of vodka to work. He's a drunk. I don't need to be a shrink or doctor to see it.

Thanks for sharing your story, C.S. and god bless you and much success on your continuing journey, my friend!
 
Crovax said:
Because you are ignorant.

This is a pretty comprehensive article on why AA is just about the worst thing you can do to stop drinking

The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous - The Atlantic
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This might be your sixth or seventh piss missile aimed at AA and yet you still haven't stepped up and offered whether or not you have your own personal battle with addiction going on, because if you're a "normie", and you also don't have any family or loved ones who are addicts you have absolutely ZERO frame of reference.

If that's the case, you're a "fake expert" who is talking out of their ass.
 
Kobie said:
I'm glad that worked out in this case, but I've found that being mega-confrontational about a friend's issues can only make them worse or lead them to shut you out.
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Lurch? Mega? Naaah, only in size or height, maybe. After reading him a lot, I get the impression he probably went about it the way a real friend would.
 
lurchadams said:
It's working so far, Kob. I'm going to text him every day, tell him about my day, and provide the countdown to our meeting. No, Kob. I respectfully disagree my approach in this case is inappropriate.

Thank you, though.
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I didn't say it WAS inappopriate, I meant it can be. But if he was OK with it, then you didn't do the wrong thing.
 
JasperL said:
I've read it and there's nothing new to me in that article, or that IMO contradicts what I've said to this point. What part do you think I don't understand? You quoted me and ignored every word, so I can't tell.



I agree with all that. We get people coming in all the time who all they want is their slip signed they can give to the court or their employer and it's a waste of everyone's time.

And I agree with the failure of the medical and mental health, which you'll note if you read my comment instead of ignoring it, but you've not explained why crapping on the only option that IS available to lots of people in the reality we inhabit is helpful. It's fine to wish for a better reality, but I don't see how that helps someone who's got a problem of addiction today. I've got a list of books I recommend to people that are focused on the medical aspect of addiction and what might help, and TBH I don't see that working out too well either because there aren't a lot of facilities that take that approach - none in this area that I'm aware of. I also tell people AA isn't for everyone, but it does help many and it's worth a try. What's wrong with that, given your expertise on this subject?
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Not sure why you're getting your back up here, since I don't think we're that far apart in our positions on the subject. I didn't ignore anything.
 
lurchadams said:
<Sigh> thanks.
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That's not your fault, and you're not wrong for suggesting AA as a first step. Just be aware that there are other options out there if it doesn't take. That was all I was trying to say.

We're on the same side here -- I hope your friend finds peace and happiness and maybe doesn't kill himself with booze.
 
Kobie said:
While Crovax was kinda of a dick there, I also question AA's effectiveness. I know more people who washed out from AA than those it helped.
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When you hear ANY addiction rehab program speak of long term success rates, be very wary.
Long term sobriety is in and of itself a very rare jewel.

And yeah, Crovax is investing a crap ton of energy into being a dick about it, which merits an equal response.
But some people take pride in that sort of thing, and here on DP, when it comes to polly-ticks, maybe it's par for the course but when it comes to forums like SELF HELP, I would daresay it is expected that even the biggest prick in DP would be well served by taking off the prick badge and acting more like a decent human being or some facsimile thereof.

Anyway, rehab centers speak in very measured terms where success rates are concerned, in order to avoid costly litigation and also to soothe insurers. That's the difference between a commercially run treatment center and AA. AA doesn't paper over a damn thing, and they don't have to answer to lawyers and health insurers. They just do what they do, and GIGO is the watchword of the day.

You get out what you put in.
 
justabubba said:
actually, his comments should have been helpful
AA can be successful, but possibly not for the OP's friend
AA is unregulated and unscientific. alcohol abuse is a disease. a medical approach might be a better formula for recovery
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His comments should have been but thanks to his crappy tone, they weren't.
Some people need lessons on that kind of thing, it's called bedside manner.

If he was a doctor or a dentist, he'd be this guy:

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justabubba said:
however one may choose to characterize his post, his caution about the reliance on AA as THE method of recovery is a legitimate one
there is little data which shows AA to be particularly effective
there may be better alternatives, preferably science/medicine based, to use instead
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How is that data acquired? AA does not interface with groups doing studies of that nature.
They don't even try to, they don't furnish data to anybody. They don't collect that kind of data and they sure as Hell don't share any data. That's what is meant BY "ANONYMOUS".

So when one measures AA success rates, it means the people being talked to are...what exactly?
People with a long period of sobriety don't generally share, and people who went to AA and washed out probably do, but if you contact any AA group, and say "We're doing a study on how many AA members have successfully handled their addiction", guess what you get from AA:

 
Kobie said:
Read the Atlantic article that Crovax posted. It's quite insightful.

One main problem is that AA is often court-mandated; another is that medical treatments for alcohol abuse are rarely explored. The problem is that AA shouldn't be the only option available to anyone, yet by and large it is. That's yet another failure in our medical and mental health systems.
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If you have health insurance or deep pockets there are plenty of rehab outfits who will take your policy or your money.
Courts CAN and DO mandate other things BESIDES AA, but they mandate AA at the very MINIMUM.

If I had a dollar for every "insightful" article I've read about AA, I'd be a gazillionaire.
All I know is, I've got twenty-six years of sobriety, and I am not the only one.
 
Keridan said:
Please feel absolutely free! I did a little research on different programs when I was trying to find help. AA/NA didn't work for me, but it has for friends and is a great program. There are a few others out there that are less religious or focus on different character traits. I'm more than happy to share my experience and knowledge. Feel free to either DM me or follow up on this thread as needed.

Again, I think it's a great thing you are doing for you friend! If there's any way I can help, I'm more than happy to do so.
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AA itself does not mandate religion other than to use "God as we understand him" and a great many AA groups will go on to say "We don't care if you're religious. If you think the Flying Spaghetti Monster is God, and that works for you, go for it."

Yes, there ARE INDEED a crap ton of AA groups which are super-religious.
I encountered a lot of them, and avoided them like the plague.
The one that worked for me just happened to be right across the street, and it was so "un-religious" that even Ozzy Osbourne showed up one night right before a show at The Forum.
 
lurchadams said:
To the bolded: It's alcoholism, C.S. He gets the shakes while at work because his body craves the alcohol he must drink all in his personal time. If he's not already, he's on his way to bringing a thermos full of vodka to work. He's a drunk. I don't need to be a shrink or doctor to see it.

Thanks for sharing your story, C.S. and god bless you and much success on your continuing journey, my friend!
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I "had to say the words" because as other much smarter people already noted, ONE CANNOT diagnose addiction over the internet. So if I were to pop up and say "Yeah, he's an alcoholic" I'd be just one more idiot who thinks that they can diagnose by reading forum posts.

So rest assured, when you read me saying:

"I'm conflicted because I am not sure if this is really alcoholism"

I'm covering my butt AND admitting that I cannot pretend to be an expert just by reading forum posts.
 
lurchadams said:
Great advice thank you. I'll tell Cal and make sure to observe what happens in the meeting. Thanks again!
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FWIW, there are a lot of books out there on non-AA treatments. I agree with some of the posters that AA isn't for everyone, because it's just not - lots of people don't get sober with AA. But you've said your friend is getting professional help and I'll let them do their jobs.

I will recommend one book that kind of explains as well as anything I've seen (other than a book by a medical doctor that's out of print that I found at the library) about the brain chemistry aspects of alcoholism (which is what those shakes are all about...).

https://www.amazon.com/Seven-Weeks-...546845714&sr=8-1&keywords=7+weeks+to+sobriety

I wouldn't necessarily read it for the treatment program (the author sells supplements and has a treatment center), although I followed some of the recommendations (big does of vitamins B and C, primrose oil, and some others) and went to meetings and between the two it worked for this n=1 sample, but to understand what the problem really is at a physical level, brain chemistry level, why drinking makes us feel better, etc.

There are others out there that explain the biochemistry issues. More than anything I was helped understanding cravings, why I had them, what alcohol did to alleviate them, etc. and understanding made dealing with the issues easier for me.
 
PS: Crovax, you should probably take some lessons in how not to be a world class dick when it's a serious human interest subject. Be a dick all you want about politics, but this is "wrong place, wrong time", and you deserve to be called out on your crappy attitude.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
AA itself does not mandate religion other than to use "God as we understand him" and a great many AA groups will go on to say "We don't care if you're religious. If you think the Flying Spaghetti Monster is God, and that works for you, go for it."

Yes, there ARE INDEED a crap ton of AA groups which are super-religious.
I encountered a lot of them, and avoided them like the plague.
The one that worked for me just happened to be right across the street, and it was so "un-religious" that even Ozzy Osbourne showed up one night right before a show at The Forum.
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You are 100% right. It refers to a higher power and leaves it up to the person trying to get better to decide what that higher power is. Some groups are more religious than others. There are people who are completely turned off by the idea, however, and groups for them, too.

Luckily, this is not a disease that is new to our community and there are tons out there who have found the help they need and long to share that with others. There are a lot of groups of all colors to help and other programs that are non-profit that will help in any way they can.

Without the help I have received, I would not have my wife and two sons to make my life worth waking up every day. I'm one of those who have benefited and is delighted to help whenever possible. I get the same sense from you.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
AA itself does not mandate religion other than to use "God as we understand him" and a great many AA groups will go on to say "We don't care if you're religious. If you think the Flying Spaghetti Monster is God, and that works for you, go for it."

Yes, there ARE INDEED a crap ton of AA groups which are super-religious.
I encountered a lot of them, and avoided them like the plague.
The one that worked for me just happened to be right across the street, and it was so "un-religious" that even Ozzy Osbourne showed up one night right before a show at The Forum.
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LOL, the religious groups weren't for me either and in E. Tennessee there are indeed a lot of them. My regular group isn't that way. A few of the members/regulars are fairly religious, but that's fine, they say their bit and the meeting moves on. It's also downtown within an easy walk of the main live theaters in town, and the meeting's at noon, so we'll get (usually less famous) entertainers coming through on occasion.

What's kind of funny in my area anyway is the fundamentalist/evangelical churches aren't the ones that host meetings, because of the "Higher power" stuff. To those churches there can be only ONE higher power! I didn't notice it for years until someone pointed it out, but the churches that host meetings around here are the 'liberal' churches like the downtown Episcopal church, Unitarians, and whichever of the Presbyterian branches is the less evangelical one (I forget which). The hard core churches have an AA based program, called Celebrate Recovery, and those meetings are like revivals. Pretty entertaining one time, which is all I could take... :peace
 
Kobie said:
Not sure why you're getting your back up here, since I don't think we're that far apart in our positions on the subject. I didn't ignore anything.
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Because you're trashing AA, called it "garbage" even while recognizing that's the only option for a lot of people, and ignoring that the programs do a lot of good for lots of people, including several on this thread like me. I don't think it's helpful, in large part because from what I can tell it's based on ignorance.

And, yeah, you ignored entire posts, like the one you just quoted and didn't address at all, which was the third or fourth time doing that.... :roll:
 
lurchadams said:
I've known Cal for well over 20 years. We became friends at work, he went on to a different company but we remained friends. He used to coach our company softball team. He's got an undergrad, an MBA, and 2 PHD's. He's got a lot of knowledge but not as much common sense as I wish he could have. Anyway, he's my friend, and I love him.

Cal got divorced, roughly the same time as I did, 2 years ago. As friends, we stopped hanging out for awhile because his wife (now his ex) didn't like hanging around our kids. When Cal got divorced we started hanging out again. Cal is still not over his divorce. His ex-wife is a malignant narcissist. She had and has zero empathy for Cal. She announced she was dumping him at work, in the lobby of their office building, the day before Cal was going to head on vacation. He fainted. She couldn't wait to do it, in private, after Cal returned. Suffice to say, Cal had a pretty ****ing ****ty time on that vacation. Anyway, that's the kind of horrible person she is.

Anyway, Cal's still not over her, although me, his family and all his other friends tell him he does not want her back. He agrees and says, "keep telling me that". Well, ok. But he's got to realize it himself.

So, mourning the end of his marriage 2 years ago Cal started self-medicating with booze. Hard alcohol. Every time I've seen him the past 2 years he's had some kind of drink goin'.

He hosted me and my brother, and his former nephew Christmas for dinner. Cal passed out in his recliner right after dinner. We all ended up cleaning up, putting the food away, then we just left and locked him in. This is when I realized I had to do what I could do to stop this. I called Cal at work the next day and told him for the first time, "Cal, I'm worried about your drinking". He said, "Yeah, it's a bit of a problem".

Anyway, he lives between where my kids' mom lives and where I live. After dropping off the kids, I usually stop by and visit with Cal. Tonight I became a real asshole. When Cal let me in tonight, I said, "Hi, Cal! How's the drinking going?". He joked "it's still going, ha, ha, I'm still doing it!, ha ha". Then later this evening he said, "ha ha, a few hours into work I get the shakes, ha, ha".

And I just ****ing lost it. I said, "So Cal! You're a drunk!". He said, "Yeah, I'm a drunk". So I told him, "we're going to find a meeting by your house, when I get back Saturday you and I are going to an AA meeting". And he agreed. So we're going to Cal's first AA meeting this Saturday. It's a good start!

I'm hopeful!
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Hope it goes well for him. :)
 
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