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Some advice on mixing meds and herbs?

PleasantValley

PleasantValley

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Location
Henderson, TX
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Political Leaning
Centrist
I have learned on this site, regardless of lean, there is a huge wealth of knowledge contained in the membership here.

I find my honesty has put me between a rock and a hard place.

A. I discovered a couple months ago an herb called Kratom that helps tremendously with the pain I am enduring. In the mornings is when it is the worst.
I take four 500mg capsules of Kratom with one 325/5mg Hydrocodone and in an hour or so I am almost pain free for about six hours straight. After that I don't really need anything else but to lay down for 40 minutes if i start to hurt again. It really helps a lot.

Now the bad part.

B. I mentioned this to my doctor and he said if I take any Kratom he will no longer prescribe my Hydrocodone. There is so much misinformation about Kratom out there, but I think his decision might be insurance driven in that if anything were to happen if he said YES, then he may be opening himself up for some liability.

C. Silver lining is Kratom seldom shows up in any drug blood tests or urinalysis.

Should i lie and continue taking it which allows the Hydrocodone to be extended

or

discontinue the Kratom and run out of Hydrocodone much earlier.

My doctor has normally been very understanding in writing me prescriptions with no end date, but instead say "AS NEEDED". This means I can take the bottle with me on trips and not worry about over zealous cops.

Pill heads gobble up their pill almost within days, then go to their supplier and put more back in their bottle.
This is why it is illegal to carry opiate pills with you if the prescription has expired and there are still pills in the bottle.
You just committed a felony.

"AS NEEDED" takes away that dangerous issue.

What should I do? Any and all constructive advice is welcomed.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I would talk to your doctor about getting on a non-opiate for long term pain management. Opiates are very dangerous to take for very long at all in terms of dependence. https://arstechnica.com/science/201...ply-of-opioids-1-in-5-become-long-term-users/
Click to expand...

I second this. My sisters life, and by extension, many lives around her, were destroyed by opioid addiction. As well as my best friends wife.

I get that the substitutes aren't as effective...but I've seen a lot of misery brought about by opioids.

Also...as a general rule, if the Dr says not to do something...don't do it. Things as benign as aspirin are killers when mixed with other things in your liver.
 
I did a little googling and came up with this...

Worsening depression and possible fatal drug interactions between kratom and other opioids, like prescription-based hydrocodone or morphine, have been reported by The New York Times. When taking more than one mind-altering substance at a time, each may exacerbate the potential hazards, side effects, and risk factors associated with each substance, and this mixing heightens the probability for drug dependence, addiction, or a life-threatening drug overdose. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that almost 50,000 people died in the United States from a drug overdose in 2014, making overdose the leading cause of injury death in the nation.



https://americanaddictioncenters.org/kratom/dangers/
 
KevinKohler said:
I second this. My sisters life, and by extension, many lives around her, were destroyed by opioid addiction. As well as my best friends wife.

I get that the substitutes aren't as effective...but I've seen a lot of misery brought about by opioids.

Also...as a general rule, if the Dr says not to do something...don't do it. Things as benign as aspirin are killers when mixed with other things in your liver.
Click to expand...

Generally the best way to deal with long term pain is to fix the problem. For example, if you have back pain, strengthen your back. Back in 2016 I was out riding my road bike over lunch and was stopped at a stop light. A lady plowed through me from behind at 45 mph. She was looking at her cell phone and never even looked up, ran through me and the light. I woke up in ICU with bleeding on the brain, a shattered scapula, a broken back, broken ribs, and a gash on my forehead that had my skull exposed, and covered in road rash. Even had tire marks on the backs of my legs. The pain was so bad they had me on IV dilaudid. When I was discharged from the hospital 4 days later, they wrote me a prescription for several weeks of narcotic painkillers. I never took any of them because I figured I was going to be in a lot of pain for at least 12 weeks and if I masked it with narcotic pain killers I would almost certainly be dependent on them by then so I may as well just get used to being in pain. At any rate, I forced myself to keep moving and to resume strength training and soon as possible. Orthopedists said they had never seen someone recover so quickly from such severe injuries. Within 3 weeks I was back to running. I went from being unable to stand without assistance to running again in just 3 weeks, and yeah, it hurt like hell to run, but it helped me recover faster After 10 weeks I was doing pull-ups again. Within 3 months I was deadlifting again. Point being, even when you are in severe pain there is a light at the end of the tunnel, you just got to work like hell on getting better.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I would talk to your doctor about getting on a non-opiate for long term pain management. Opiates are very dangerous to take for very long at all in terms of dependence. https://arstechnica.com/science/201...ply-of-opioids-1-in-5-become-long-term-users/
Click to expand...

I discovered Kratom when I was looking for a non-opiate for pain control.
Now that I found one, they don't want me to take it because it is only $20 for 50 capsules.
...and it is not a drug. In direct violation with Big Pharma's edict that ONLY A DRUG can treat, cure, or prevent a disease.

Your link offered no solutions. It just parroted back the "opiod addiction" boggie man.
I am not addicted.
Some days i do not take any at all.
The days i do take it, I only take ONE (1).
This is not an addiction, nor is it even a dependency.

It is taking a needed med to control my pain.
 
Last edited:
KevinKohler said:
I second this. My sisters life, and by extension, many lives around her, were destroyed by opioid addiction. As well as my best friends wife.

I get that the substitutes aren't as effective...but I've seen a lot of misery brought about by opioids.

Also...as a general rule, if the Dr says not to do something...don't do it. Things as benign as aspirin are killers when mixed with other things in your liver.
Click to expand...

I understand, except my doctor knows nothing about kratom and had not even heard of it till I mentioned it to him.
 
Elvira said:
I did a little googling and came up with this...

Worsening depression and possible fatal drug interactions between kratom and other opioids, like prescription-based hydrocodone or morphine, have been reported by The New York Times. When taking more than one mind-altering substance at a time, each may exacerbate the potential hazards, side effects, and risk factors associated with each substance, and this mixing heightens the probability for drug dependence, addiction, or a life-threatening drug overdose. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that almost 50,000 people died in the United States from a drug overdose in 2014, making overdose the leading cause of injury death in the nation.



https://americanaddictioncenters.org/kratom/dangers/
Click to expand...

Thank you for the search, Elvira.
I think we are in the "Reefer Madness" phase about Kratom right now.
Too much misinformation and not enough valid & unbiased research.

Still, I have nothing to loose if i stop taking it.
This just means I will have to double down on the hydrocodone, which I know will cause damage to my eventually.

PS...none of this gets me high. It kills the pain and gives me energy to live what is left of the rest of my soon-to-be short life.

So I guess I have to adhere to Big Pharma's law that ONLY A DRUG can treat, prevent, or cure a disease.

Heaven forbid the leaves of a 50 foot tall tree gives me any relief at all.
it is not a drug, so therefore you had best not use it.
ONLY the hydrocodone can you use!

...and as your condition worsens, you can move on to morphine.
That is also a drug and is authorized.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Generally the best way to deal with long term pain is to fix the problem. For example, if you have back pain, strengthen your back. Back in 2016 I was out riding my road bike over lunch and was stopped at a stop light. A lady plowed through me from behind at 45 mph. She was looking at her cell phone and never even looked up, ran through me and the light. I woke up in ICU with bleeding on the brain, a shattered scapula, a broken back, broken ribs, and a gash on my forehead that had my skull exposed, and covered in road rash. Even had tire marks on the backs of my legs. The pain was so bad they had me on IV dilaudid. When I was discharged from the hospital 4 days later, they wrote me a prescription for several weeks of narcotic painkillers. I never took any of them because I figured I was going to be in a lot of pain for at least 12 weeks and if I masked it with narcotic pain killers I would almost certainly be dependent on them by then so I may as well just get used to being in pain. At any rate, I forced myself to keep moving and to resume strength training and soon as possible. Orthopedists said they had never seen someone recover so quickly from such severe injuries. Within 3 weeks I was back to running. I went from being unable to stand without assistance to running again in just 3 weeks, and yeah, it hurt like hell to run, but it helped me recover faster After 10 weeks I was doing pull-ups again. Within 3 months I was deadlifting again. Point being, even when you are in severe pain there is a light at the end of the tunnel, you just got to work like hell on getting better.
Click to expand...

I am so glad you were able to recover.
What I have will never get better and is degenerating every day.
It has now spread up to my neck and all up and down my spine.
Taking off the pressure seems to be the only thing that relieves some of it. I spend 12 of 14 hours in bed most of the time.

I have decided I will not play their game and live as much as I can.
I am sure they see me and my wonderful insurance as a meal ticket and want to keep me strung out on their dope as long as they can.
 
PleasantValley said:
I have learned on this site, regardless of lean, there is a huge wealth of knowledge contained in the membership here.

I find my honesty has put me between a rock and a hard place.

A. I discovered a couple months ago an herb called Kratom that helps tremendously with the pain I am enduring. In the mornings is when it is the worst.
I take four 500mg capsules of Kratom with one 325/5mg Hydrocodone and in an hour or so I am almost pain free for about six hours straight. After that I don't really need anything else but to lay down for 40 minutes if i start to hurt again. It really helps a lot.

Now the bad part.

B. I mentioned this to my doctor and he said if I take any Kratom he will no longer prescribe my Hydrocodone. There is so much misinformation about Kratom out there, but I think his decision might be insurance driven in that if anything were to happen if he said YES, then he may be opening himself up for some liability.

C. Silver lining is Kratom seldom shows up in any drug blood tests or urinalysis.

Should i lie and continue taking it which allows the Hydrocodone to be extended

or

discontinue the Kratom and run out of Hydrocodone much earlier.

My doctor has normally been very understanding in writing me prescriptions with no end date, but instead say "AS NEEDED". This means I can take the bottle with me on trips and not worry about over zealous cops.

Pill heads gobble up their pill almost within days, then go to their supplier and put more back in their bottle.
This is why it is illegal to carry opiate pills with you if the prescription has expired and there are still pills in the bottle.
You just committed a felony.

"AS NEEDED" takes away that dangerous issue.

What should I do? Any and all constructive advice is welcomed.
Click to expand...

You don't like your doctor's advice so you go to the internet? Probably not the best idea.

If you want a doctor to tell you what you want to hear and not recommend things you don't want to hear then save yourself some money and stop going to doctors.
 
PleasantValley said:
Thank you for the search, Elvira.
I think we are in the "Reefer Madness" phase about Kratom right now.
Too much misinformation and not enough valid & unbiased research.

Still, I have nothing to loose if i stop taking it.
This just means I will have to double down on the hydrocodone, which I know will cause damage to my eventually.

PS...none of this gets me high. It kills the pain and gives me energy to live what is left of the rest of my soon-to-be short life.

So I guess I have to adhere to Big Pharma's law that ONLY A DRUG can treat, prevent, or cure a disease.

Heaven forbid the leaves of a 50 foot tall tree gives me any relief at all.
it is not a drug, so therefore you had best not use it.
ONLY the hydrocodone can you use!

...and as your condition worsens, you can move on to morphine.
That is also a drug and is authorized.
Click to expand...

That could very well be part of the problem...greed...Big Pharmas will lose money...who knows...

Sounds like you are between a rock and a hard place, just choosing the lesser of the 2 evils...the pain kills you sooner or the pain relievers will kill you later...seems to me the important thing is for you to have some quality of life NOW for none of us are promised tomorrow anyway...
 
Lutherf said:
You don't like your doctor's advice so you go to the internet? Probably not the best idea.

If you want a doctor to tell you what you want to hear and not recommend things you don't want to hear then save yourself some money and stop going to doctors.
Click to expand...

Hard to argue with that logic.
 
PleasantValley said:
I am so glad you were able to recover.
What I have will never get better and is degenerating every day.
It has now spread up to my neck and all up and down my spine.
Taking off the pressure seems to be the only thing that relieves some of it. I spend 12 of 14 hours in bed most of the time.

I have decided I will not play their game and live as much as I can.
I am sure they see me and my wonderful insurance as a meal ticket and want to keep me strung out on their dope as long as they can.
Click to expand...

Is surgery an option? What about physical therapy?
 
Elvira said:
That could very well be part of the problem...greed...Big Pharmas will lose money...who knows...

Sounds like you are between a rock and a hard place, just choosing the lesser of the 2 evils...the pain kills you sooner or the pain relievers will kill you later...seems to me the important thing is for you to have some quality of life NOW for none of us are promised tomorrow anyway...
Click to expand...

This is exactly what i have decided to do.
I will just deal with it day-today and let the chips fall.
I will take what I have to in order to enjoy life and have energy to do so.
If I get cut off, then so be it.
The fact it seldom shows up on drug screening tests is a plus.

If he takes me off hydrocodone for insurance reasons (not medical), then I will trust the Lord will open another path and option.

I will keep your quote in my mind always.

"...none of us are promised tomorrow anyway..." Elvira.
 
I thank you all my friends. As usual your knowledge and insight was welcome and thought provoking.
You are a blessing.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Is surgery an option? What about physical therapy?
Click to expand...

Too late for either.
Sorry you did not get an invitation to the pity party i threw when I got that news.
I still have the hat somewhere around here someplace.

Thank you for your concern and answers.
I have chosen a path to go.
 
PleasantValley said:
Too late for either.
Sorry you did not get an invitation to the pity party i threw when I got that news.
I still have the hat somewhere around here someplace.

Thank you for your concern and answers.
I have chosen a path to go.
Click to expand...

As to the topic of the thread, just lie to your doctor about the kratom.
 
PleasantValley said:
I have learned on this site, regardless of lean, there is a huge wealth of knowledge contained in the membership here.

I find my honesty has put me between a rock and a hard place.

A. I discovered a couple months ago an herb called Kratom that helps tremendously with the pain I am enduring. In the mornings is when it is the worst.
I take four 500mg capsules of Kratom with one 325/5mg Hydrocodone and in an hour or so I am almost pain free for about six hours straight. After that I don't really need anything else but to lay down for 40 minutes if i start to hurt again. It really helps a lot.

Now the bad part.

B. I mentioned this to my doctor and he said if I take any Kratom he will no longer prescribe my Hydrocodone. There is so much misinformation about Kratom out there, but I think his decision might be insurance driven in that if anything were to happen if he said YES, then he may be opening himself up for some liability.

C. Silver lining is Kratom seldom shows up in any drug blood tests or urinalysis.

Should i lie and continue taking it which allows the Hydrocodone to be extended

or

discontinue the Kratom and run out of Hydrocodone much earlier.

My doctor has normally been very understanding in writing me prescriptions with no end date, but instead say "AS NEEDED". This means I can take the bottle with me on trips and not worry about over zealous cops.

Pill heads gobble up their pill almost within days, then go to their supplier and put more back in their bottle.
This is why it is illegal to carry opiate pills with you if the prescription has expired and there are still pills in the bottle.
You just committed a felony.

"AS NEEDED" takes away that dangerous issue.

What should I do? Any and all constructive advice is welcomed.
Click to expand...

I was addicted to Kratom for 4 years and I just recently kicked the habit and it wasn't easy so beware it's addictive. It probably won't conflict with any of the other drugs and it is actually least harmful to your liver than opiates for most of those have acetaminophen. Kratom is not harmful to liver I had test done twice.

Find another doctor that's my advice. But you should tell him or her that you using Kratom as well just find one that knows more about it. Also Kratom is often used to get people off of opiates. You can take a lot more kratom than you can take opiates so why not drop opiates and double the kratom? Also stop taking Kratom directly and make tea out of it it won't give you constipation if you do it that way. As I understand it Kratom is only legal in some states so make sure it's legal in your state
 
KevinKohler said:
I second this. My sisters life, and by extension, many lives around her, were destroyed by opioid addiction. As well as my best friends wife.

I get that the substitutes aren't as effective...but I've seen a lot of misery brought about by opioids.

Also...as a general rule, if the Dr says not to do something...don't do it. Things as benign as aspirin are killers when mixed with other things in your liver.
Click to expand...

My doctor had no problem with my Kratom use so not not all doctors are knowledgeable about subject
 
Elvira said:
I did a little googling and came up with this...

Worsening depression and possible fatal drug interactions between kratom and other opioids, like prescription-based hydrocodone or morphine, have been reported by The New York Times. When taking more than one mind-altering substance at a time, each may exacerbate the potential hazards, side effects, and risk factors associated with each substance, and this mixing heightens the probability for drug dependence, addiction, or a life-threatening drug overdose. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that almost 50,000 people died in the United States from a drug overdose in 2014, making overdose the leading cause of injury death in the nation.



https://americanaddictioncenters.org/kratom/dangers/
Click to expand...

No one has died from Kratom overdose. The so-called reported cases involved other drugs than just kratom
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Generally the best way to deal with long term pain is to fix the problem. For example, if you have back pain, strengthen your back. Back in 2016 I was out riding my road bike over lunch and was stopped at a stop light. A lady plowed through me from behind at 45 mph. She was looking at her cell phone and never even looked up, ran through me and the light. I woke up in ICU with bleeding on the brain, a shattered scapula, a broken back, broken ribs, and a gash on my forehead that had my skull exposed, and covered in road rash. Even had tire marks on the backs of my legs. The pain was so bad they had me on IV dilaudid. When I was discharged from the hospital 4 days later, they wrote me a prescription for several weeks of narcotic painkillers. I never took any of them because I figured I was going to be in a lot of pain for at least 12 weeks and if I masked it with narcotic pain killers I would almost certainly be dependent on them by then so I may as well just get used to being in pain. At any rate, I forced myself to keep moving and to resume strength training and soon as possible. Orthopedists said they had never seen someone recover so quickly from such severe injuries. Within 3 weeks I was back to running. I went from being unable to stand without assistance to running again in just 3 weeks, and yeah, it hurt like hell to run, but it helped me recover faster After 10 weeks I was doing pull-ups again. Within 3 months I was deadlifting again. Point being, even when you are in severe pain there is a light at the end of the tunnel, you just got to work like hell on getting better.
Click to expand...

My brother is pain from a severe head injury which has damaged parts of his brain that cannot be repaired by surgery and he is chronic pain and has to take all kinds of drugs to deal with it. Point being not all pain can be cured
 
OscarLevant said:
I was addicted to Kratom for 4 years and I just recently kicked the habit and it wasn't easy so beware it's addictive. It probably won't conflict with any of the other drugs and it is actually least harmful to your liver than opiates for most of those have acetaminophen. Kratom is not harmful to liver I had test done twice.

Find another doctor that's my advice. But you should tell him or her that you using Kratom as well just find one that knows more about it. Also Kratom is often used to get people off of opiates. You can take a lot more kratom than you can take opiates so why not drop opiates and double the kratom? Also stop taking Kratom directly and make tea out of it it won't give you constipation if you do it that way. As I understand it Kratom is only legal in some states so make sure it's legal in your state
Click to expand...

There are 45 states where it is legal. Two others only require the user to be over 18.
In Texas it is fine.

I have found taking it any other way than swallowing a capsule is out of the question.
It tastes and smells like dead fish.

I tried once to sprinkle some on my chunky applesauce and I could not even put the spoon in my mouth.
I wound up throwing it all out.

I also only need 2 to 3 grams which is only 4 to 6 capsules. In most literature they said 7 grams was a normal dose.
I only take it to relive my constant pain and not to get high.

Thank you for a very informative post.
 
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