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PoS

PoS

Minister of Love
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Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
 
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PoS said:
Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

If the question is can someone be charged for murder if the victim is unidentified, yes they can. In this case there would have to be a lot of evidence to charge the guy with anything
 
Crovax said:
If the question is can someone be charged for murder if the victim is unidentified, yes they can. In this case there would have to be a lot of evidence to charge the guy with anything
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Thanks, Crovax. I appreciate the help! :thumbs:
 
PoS said:
Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

I am NO EXPERT...but wouldn't one first have to know how long the renter actually rented the house?

And when you say 'previous owners'? Do you mean previous to the present owner? Homes are always owned by someone - a person, company, a bank if they foreclose, a government. You said this home is foreclosed. Were the deceased owners the ones who let the home fall into foreclosure?

If the previous owners were deceased, would not their estate determine what is to be done with the ownership of the house before it fell into foreclosure?

DOn't know if you want this many questions...just trying to help our own Agatha Christie (male version).
 
PoS said:
Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

Isn't that the circumstance where the charge of murder is against "Jane Doe?"
 
PoS said:
Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

I agree with Crovax. I'd say you don't have to have an I.D. to charge someone and although the previous tenant is a clue, it's far away from that clue to charging him. Also, just FYI, a skeleton can't be putrified. Putrification refers to organs, not bones.
 
PoS said:
Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

I think that the logical steps are to determine that a crime was committed and who perpetrated it. In a rule of law context it shouldn't really matter who was killed. It was a person.
 
joG said:
I think that the logical steps are to determine that a crime was committed and who perpetrated it. In a rule of law context it shouldn't really matter who was killed. It was a person.
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You would not say that if you were the person who was killed.

;)
 
Thanks everyone. Yes, Maggie I am aware that skeletons dont putrefy, I was referring to the muck around the skeleton. ;)

DA, as far as the previous renters- yes, an old couple had the house for decades, but their kids put it up on the market after they passed away which ended up with the suspect as the homeowner, but his ownership was repossessed by the mortgage lender because of non-payment.

As far as the evidence against him, well, he did have a meth lab in the basement before he moved out, but claims he didnt know about the secret room in it.

Does all this sound plausible so far? :mrgreen:
 
Is there a way they could 'date' the remains and make sure it matches with when the suspects would have had a chance to be the guilty ones? I mean, if I were on a jury I'd need to know that, barring better ID, etc.
 
DA60 said:
You would not say that if you were the person who was killed.

;)
Click to expand...

Boy would I be angry, if I were the person killed. ;)


....or may be not.
 
PoS said:
Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

Sure he can be charged. Can the state get a conviction based on there only being a dead body found in his old house? Much more difficult without motive or some other evidence connecting him to the corpse. But, I'm sure you will find that people have indeed been convicted of murdering a Jane Doe.

They would need to try to determine cause of death or something though to prove murder. Otherwise he can just say she OD'd or fell or something like that as a defense to beat the murder rap.
 
calamity said:
Sure he can be charged. Can the state get a conviction based on there only being a dead body found in his old house? Much more difficult without motive or some other evidence connecting him to the corpse. But, I'm sure you will find that people have indeed been convicted of murdering a Jane Doe.

They would need to try to determine cause of death or something though to prove murder. Otherwise he can just say she OD'd or fell or something like that as a defense to beat the murder rap.
Click to expand...
It doesn't happen often, but it's not uncommon for a person to be convicted merely on circumstantial evidence and no body.
 
radcen said:
Is there a way they could 'date' the remains and make sure it matches with when the suspects would have had a chance to be the guilty ones? I mean, if I were on a jury I'd need to know that, barring better ID, etc.
Click to expand...

According to forensics, the estimated time when the unsub died was probably around the time when the suspect lived in the house.

(This will be of course one big red herring since I am planning to put a twist as to who the real killer is :mrgreen:)
 
PoS said:
Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

This sounds almost identical to one of the Cathy Reich novels..... (Bones series with Temperance Brennan)
 
PoS said:
According to forensics, the estimated time when the unsub died was probably around the time when the suspect lived in the house.

(This will be of course one big red herring since I am planning to put a twist as to who the real killer is :mrgreen:)
Click to expand...

I believe "unsub" is the suspect, not the victim. Just sayin'. ;)
 
GottaGo said:
This sounds almost identical to one of the Cathy Reich novels..... (Bones series with Temperance Brennan)
Click to expand...

I never read her books! But can you tell me how it ends so I dont end up getting sued?

radcen said:
I believe "unsub" is the suspect, not the victim. Just sayin'. ;)
Click to expand...

Oops. :3oops:
 
PoS said:
I never read her books! But can you tell me how it ends so I dont end up getting sued?



Oops. :3oops:
Click to expand...

Body identified, murder caught. :D

I'll have to try and research back to figure out which one. Or, you might try reading her books, they are very well written, full of all sorts of forensic information, since you lean that way.
 
GottaGo said:
Body identified, murder caught. :D

I'll have to try and research back to figure out which one. Or, you might try reading her books, they are very well written, full of all sorts of forensic information, since you lean that way.
Click to expand...

Thanks. LOL. I did a quick run through of her book summaries, and while the premise of one book seems similar, I think mine is sufficiently different since the bones in the secret room are just a red herring for something else. ;)
 
PoS said:
Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

Well, a charge must be supported by probable cause, whether it is made by way of indictment or criminal complaint. I don't think there is probable cause here, even though it is an incredibly low standard.

1. The skeleton was in a secret room. There is no indication the renter knew or had cause to know of the secret room.

2. We don't know how long the skeleton was there, nor whether its presence overlapped with the renter's presence.

3. Prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape do not provide probable cause to arrest for murder, especially in these circumstances. If the renter were being investigated for a drug crime, then perhaps something like a prior drug conviction might be mentioned in an application for a search warrant (also requiring probable cause), but the mere fact of having a prior conviction certainly would not be enough alone to establish probable cause to arrest for some future unrelated drug crime. But again, here, the prior convictions have nothing to do with the present scenario.

As Crovax noted, the lack of identification of the body could be a red herring. The important fact is that it's the corpse of a dead human, which did not appear to have died naturally.




The police would certainly have reason to investigate the last renter, but they need something to connect him to the body in the secret room. Maybe he behaves very evasively during an interview (not sure that would be enough either, but it'd be more than nothing). Maybe he says something that indicates knowledge of the body in the room or just the room. Maybe there's a footprint in the dust in the room, and the footprint happens to be consistent with the last renter's shoe size.

There's no clear answers with probable cause unless you fit the facts of an existing appellate decision finding probable cause, but you definitely need more than mere presence in the vicinity of contraband or a body or something...
 
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PoS said:
According to forensics, the estimated time when the unsub died was probably around the time when the suspect lived in the house.

(This will be of course one big red herring since I am planning to put a twist as to who the real killer is :mrgreen:)
Click to expand...

It's the butler, isn't it? It's ALWAYS the butler....in the pantry...with a candlestick.
 
Mr Person said:
Well, a charge must be supported by probable cause, whether it is made by way of indictment or criminal complaint. I don't think there is probable cause here, even though it is an incredibly low standard.

1. The skeleton was in a secret room. There is no indication the renter knew or had cause to know of the secret room.

2. We don't know how long the skeleton was there, nor whether its presence overlapped with the renter's presence.

3. Prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape do not provide probable cause to arrest for murder, especially in these circumstances. If the renter were being investigated for a drug crime, then perhaps something like a prior drug conviction might be mentioned in an application for a search warrant (also requiring probable cause), but the mere fact of having a prior conviction certainly would not be enough alone to establish probable cause to arrest for some future unrelated drug crime. But again, here, the prior convictions have nothing to do with the present scenario.

As Crovax noted, the lack of identification of the body could be a red herring. The important fact is that it's the corpse of a dead human, which did not appear to have died naturally.




The police would certainly have reason to investigate the last renter, but they need something to connect him to the body in the secret room. Maybe he behaves very evasively during an interview (not sure that would be enough either, but it'd be more than nothing). Maybe he says something that indicates knowledge of the body in the room or just the room. Maybe there's a footprint in the dust in the room, and the footprint happens to be consistent with the last renter's shoe size.

There's no clear answers with probable cause unless you fit the facts of an existing appellate decision finding probable cause, but you definitely need more than mere presence in the vicinity of contraband or a body or something...
Click to expand...

Yes of course, Ive just written a scene in which the suspect hints he knows more than what they think but cries out he isn't a snitch. Plus the DA is under pressure to prosecute so there's politics involved too. So I want to maximize the twists and turns here. ;)
 
PoS said:
According to forensics, the estimated time when the unsub died was probably around the time when the suspect lived in the house.

(This will be of course one big red herring since I am planning to put a twist as to who the real killer is :mrgreen:)
Click to expand...

Yes

The suspect can be charged. Of course more evidence would be required for going to trial then just a dead body

Triple murderer Douglas Garland's attackers will be charged, police say - Calgary - CBC News

In Calgary, a man was charged and convicted of a triple murder without the bodies being found. When they announced all of the circumstantial evidence it was amazing the work investigators did to get it all.

From video of his truck leaving the community, DNA found on his farm of the three victims, plans on how to kill and torture people, photos from drones above his property with the outlines of bodies on the ground
 
PoS said:
Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

Do a search on this before going to far

But dental and DNA records for missing persons I believe go into a searchable database when such records exist or the police take the time to do so. If I am correct you would want to ensure a reason why her records were not put into such a database.
 
PoS said:
Doing research for a psych mystery thriller so... :mrgreen:

Here's the scenario: putrefied skeleton is found in a secret room hidden in basement of a foreclosed house and is currently unidentified. The last renter had prior convictions for drug dealing and statutory rape (the previous owners were a deceased old couple). Detectives fail to identify the body- so far- all they have based on forensics is that it is a young woman with sprouted wisdom teeth, but they are unable to match DNA or dental due to the fact that they don't know who to base it on. Can this suspect be charged for imprisonment and murder even if the body is as of yet unidentified?

Any suggestions welcome!
Click to expand...

With the only evidence being a dead body and no real motive all you have is pretty weak circumstantial evidence. Do they even have evidence that he is the one who put the person in the hidden room?
I would say that they ( detectives on the case ) would watch the guy and continue to investigate.
If they charged the guy at that point it wouldn't likely even make it to court.
 
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