5g

[jmotivator]

I picked up a Galaxy Note 10 from AT&T for my work phone. I use it as both a phone and tethered hot-spot because my location requires it.

Much to my surprise and pleasure it turns out that this area, while no where near 5G on the official AT&T distribution map, has what I assume is an experimental, solar powered 5G link floating out on the bay. Nautical maps and my live Wi-Fi map on my phone line up with a navigation buoy.

So anyway, I get to play around with what is basically my own personal 5G hub now. It's rather impressive given how many hops it needs to make to get on to the internet. I can only assume that this test buoy is also alternating modes during it's test cycle. The buoy is probably about a mile out on the water, and likely is connecting to the internet somewhere out on the DELMARVA peninsula, but I am getting under 20ms latency at worst, and the slowest speed test is about 35mbps... so better than the highest speed I ever got out here on 4G.

Also, those speeds I see are the worst I experience. On a good day I can hit 200 mbps

The way 5G works is that most devices operate as hubs that can establish hundreds of concurrent connections and build redundant webs of interlinked devices that serve as a virtual wired network. In theory, each hop ads about 1 ms of latency, though I'm guessing I'm getting consistently more than that... but still very manageable for any use other than competitive FPS gaming. So my connection to this buoy facilitates a connection that buoy made with another device closer to an internet hub, and so on. In practice, unlike cable and 4G services, there is no huge infrastructure project needed to roll it out. No cables to run, no towers to erect. It's just getting enough people and devices in the field to create these networks. It won't be long before rural areas will have just as much internet service as urban areas.

This tech is going to change the world.

 

[longview]

I picked up a Galaxy Note 10 from AT&T for my work phone. I use it as both a phone and tethered hot-spot because my location requires it.

Much to my surprise and pleasure it turns out that this area, while no where near 5G on the official AT&T distribution map, has what I assume is an experimental, solar powered 5G link floating out on the bay. Nautical maps and my live Wi-Fi map on my phone line up with a navigation buoy.

So anyway, I get to play around with what is basically my own personal 5G hub now. It's rather impressive given how many hops it needs to make to get on to the internet. I can only assume that this test buoy is also alternating modes during it's test cycle. The buoy is probably about a mile out on the water, and likely is connecting to the internet somewhere out on the DELMARVA peninsula, but I am getting under 20ms latency at worst, and the slowest speed test is about 35mbps... so better than the highest speed I ever got out here on 4G.

Also, those speeds I see are the worst I experience. On a good day I can hit 200 mbps

The way 5G works is that most devices operate as hubs that can establish hundreds of concurrent connections and build redundant webs of interlinked devices that serve as a virtual wired network. In theory, each hop ads about 1 ms of latency, though I'm guessing I'm getting consistently more than that... but still very manageable for any use other than competitive FPS gaming. So my connection to this buoy facilitates a connection that buoy made with another device closer to an internet hub, and so on. In practice, unlike cable and 4G services, there is no huge infrastructure project needed to roll it out. No cables to run, no towers to erect. It's just getting enough people and devices in the field to create these networks. It won't be long before rural areas will have just as much internet service as urban areas.

This tech is going to change the world.

I would ask around, and make sure it is a legitimate hotspot, least you might be giving your information away.
If it is legitimate, what a cool idea, the range over water could be quite a distance.

 

[jmotivator]

I would ask around, and make sure it is a legitimate hotspot, least you might be giving your information away.
If it is legitimate, what a cool idea, the range over water could be quite a distance.

I think most people could figure out where I am with a little effort, but good luck finding me in person. :lol:

I have to tools to query the towers and links I connect to and my phone authenticates it as a genuine AT&T 5G hub, so I think I am good. If ne're-do-wells can already infiltrate 5G meshes with imitation hardware then we're all screwed.

 

[jmotivator]

Update: On further review, the buoy in question is actually powered and runs a host of navigational signalling services for local boaters, so the 5G hotspot is likely just a normal plug-in device. I'm still curious where it links to, though. I see a few 5G nodes showing up further inland, but I am not connecting to them... so one of two guesses:

1) It's easier than I thought and the powered buoy also is wired for internet and the node is plugged into the buoy's internet...

2) Or the node has a better connection than I can manage to the other nodes further inland, so I'm making the connection out to the buoy that is then hopping back past me to an inland node on my side of the water.

More on 5G..

The other cool thing about this technology is that it can maintain a constant, stable, low latency connection between nodes even at relative speeds of 70 mph, so when vehicles start getting built with built-in 5G hubs, the highways themselves will become extended, virtual wired networks.

Granted, that is probably when Skynet becomes self-aware...

 

[PeteEU]

5G is a bit of a scam imo. Why? Few mobile operators have unlimited data, which means that with 5G you just use your data faster..

Whats the point of having 40mbit or 70mbit if you only have say 10 GB a month?

Sent from my Honor 8X

 

[PirateMk1]

5G is a bit of a scam imo. Why? Few mobile operators have unlimited data, which means that with 5G you just use your data faster..

Whats the point of having 40mbit or 70mbit if you only have say 10 GB a month?

Sent from my Honor 8X

True unlimited data is a hose, not a bucket. I dont buy buckets when I need data.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I will wait to adopt 5G to see if it results in better data plans. I am not optimistic though.

The performance I get on 4G works just fine for me in my iphone 8.

 

[jmotivator]

5G is a bit of a scam imo. Why? Few mobile operators have unlimited data, which means that with 5G you just use your data faster..

Whats the point of having 40mbit or 70mbit if you only have say 10 GB a month?

Sent from my Honor 8X

The reason there are limits is because with 4G there are cell towers that have limited bandwidth that all people who connect must share. In early 5G there is a similar bottleneck as the number of paths of egress into the internet are limited. Even still, the otherwise exceptionally stingy AT&T has been rapidly changing and adding plans that make more sense for 5G users.

When I bought the phone two months ago the top plan they offered me was 30gb/month and 15gb/month tethering. For $5 more a month they now offer me 100gb/month and 30gb of tethering and a slew of content provider services like Hulu that don't even count towards my monthly cap.

When 5G is fully deployed and your device has hundreds of potential paths of egress, I wouldn't be surprised to see unlimited, no cap plans starting for 5G service, with a stipulation that a cap will apply when on 4G.

But then, also consider that it will be monumentally easier for competition in the 5G market since startups will no longer need to lease bandwidth from carrier towers if they are providing a 5G only service, all they need to do is provide devices.

I can also see the traditional wired network providers starting to offer free unlimited 5G if you agree to upgrade your home modem to a new model that will operate as a 5G hub. This would be mutually beneficial and allow them to remain competitive in a new market. The real threat to 5G is a decline in egress points as people stop paying for wired internet. The industry will need to incentivize people to keep those connections

 

[jmotivator]

I will wait to adopt 5G to see if it results in better data plans. I am not optimistic though.

The performance I get on 4G works just fine for me in my iphone 8.

My AT&T plan with 5G went from 30gb/month to 100gb/month for an additional $5.

 

[Moonglow]

I picked up a Galaxy Note 10 from AT&T for my work phone. I use it as both a phone and tethered hot-spot because my location requires it.

Much to my surprise and pleasure it turns out that this area, while no where near 5G on the official AT&T distribution map, has what I assume is an experimental, solar powered 5G link floating out on the bay. Nautical maps and my live Wi-Fi map on my phone line up with a navigation buoy.

So anyway, I get to play around with what is basically my own personal 5G hub now. It's rather impressive given how many hops it needs to make to get on to the internet. I can only assume that this test buoy is also alternating modes during it's test cycle. The buoy is probably about a mile out on the water, and likely is connecting to the internet somewhere out on the DELMARVA peninsula, but I am getting under 20ms latency at worst, and the slowest speed test is about 35mbps... so better than the highest speed I ever got out here on 4G.

Also, those speeds I see are the worst I experience. On a good day I can hit 200 mbps

The way 5G works is that most devices operate as hubs that can establish hundreds of concurrent connections and build redundant webs of interlinked devices that serve as a virtual wired network. In theory, each hop ads about 1 ms of latency, though I'm guessing I'm getting consistently more than that... but still very manageable for any use other than competitive FPS gaming. So my connection to this buoy facilitates a connection that buoy made with another device closer to an internet hub, and so on. In practice, unlike cable and 4G services, there is no huge infrastructure project needed to roll it out. No cables to run, no towers to erect. It's just getting enough people and devices in the field to create these networks. It won't be long before rural areas will have just as much internet service as urban areas.

This tech is going to change the world.

If one can afford it yes it will change the world. The whole concept of increasing bandwidth is to sell new products..

 

[Slartibartfast]

My AT&T plan with 5G went from 30gb/month to 100gb/month for an additional $5.

Thats not bad!

 

[jmotivator]

If one can afford it yes it will change the world. The whole concept of increasing bandwidth is to sell new products..

Well, yes, the internet is a commodity, but 5G offers easier, cheaper, and more effective ways to distribute that commodity which directly impacts the price of that commodity.

Moreover, the cost of buy-in for new 5G service providers is considerably less than a company that wanted to break into the 4G market.

 

[Moonglow]

Well, yes, the internet is a commodity, but 5G offers easier, cheaper, and more effective ways to distribute that commodity which directly impacts the price of that commodity.

Moreover, the cost of buy-in for new 5G service providers is considerably less than a company that wanted to break into the 4G market.

Where I live the 4g barely works so infrastructure has a long way to go before my area sees anything.

 

[jmotivator]

Where I live the 4g barely works so infrastructure has a long way to go before my area sees anything.

That is due t the cost and limitations of 4G technology.

4G technology had a on long range, high subscriber model where a single tower would accept thousands of concurrent subscriber connections all sharing a single link to the internet. Limitations of access, and latency, came from the heavy load each 4G tower had to service.

In a 5G model the focus is on short range, low power hubs that service up to hundreds of concurrent connections sharing essentially the same bandwidth that 4G shared across thousands of connections.

How 5G accomplishes that is by using a new wireless standard that provides extremely low latency, high bandwidth connections that have a discovery function that is something like how DNS works on the internet today. Each device maintains a map from itself to the best internet connection it can discover, and then shares that map with other devices that poll it. So your phone, or TV or whatever, would reach out to a local device, that device would share it's map, and your device would then add itself to the chain, creating a sort of virtual, wireless wired network, spreading bandwidth use across many devices and even many egress points.

So you can expect that 5G will become available in your area before 4G is sorted out simply because all that is necessary to expand 5G coverage is for consumers in your area to buy new 5G devices... a simpler task that convincing a wireless company to invest a bazillion dollars in building a new tower closer to you.

 

[PeteEU]

The reason there are limits is because with 4G there are cell towers that have limited bandwidth that all people who connect must share. In early 5G there is a similar bottleneck as the number of paths of egress into the internet are limited. Even still, the otherwise exceptionally stingy AT&T has been rapidly changing and adding plans that make more sense for 5G users.

When I bought the phone two months ago the top plan they offered me was 30gb/month and 15gb/month tethering. For $5 more a month they now offer me 100gb/month and 30gb of tethering and a slew of content provider services like Hulu that don't even count towards my monthly cap.

When 5G is fully deployed and your device has hundreds of potential paths of egress, I wouldn't be surprised to see unlimited, no cap plans starting for 5G service, with a stipulation that a cap will apply when on 4G.

But then, also consider that it will be monumentally easier for competition in the 5G market since startups will no longer need to lease bandwidth from carrier towers if they are providing a 5G only service, all they need to do is provide devices.

I can also see the traditional wired network providers starting to offer free unlimited 5G if you agree to upgrade your home modem to a new model that will operate as a 5G hub. This would be mutually beneficial and allow them to remain competitive in a new market. The real threat to 5G is a decline in egress points as people stop paying for wired internet. The industry will need to incentivize people to keep those connections

4G coverage is wide where I am, and you can get unlimited for a price. Point is, for the average user that is on a limited plan, it dont really matter that you can stream stuff faster and in higher resolution since you will run out of data faster.

Now it comes down to competition as you state, which there aint much of in the US relatively speaking. Take my home country of Denmark, here we do have pretty good 4G coverage and there are unlimited text, talk and data for 23 dollars a month, but the competition in Denmark is fierce as hell. In Spain, where I am now, that same deal costs closer to 80 dollars, but that is also going to change as the competition on the average plans is fierce as hell. Prices have fallen and amount of GB have increased dramatically in the last 3 years. Of course it is no where near as good as Scandinavia... Swedes are even better than Denmark.

In the end however, short term, 5G wont matter squat if you have 10, 20, 50 GB a month. For 5G or even 4G to matter, you really need unlimited bandwidth or at least a cap that is 200GB+ a month, and that does not cost more than 30 dollars a month.

 

[jmotivator]

4G coverage is wide where I am, and you can get unlimited for a price. Point is, for the average user that is on a limited plan, it dont really matter that you can stream stuff faster and in higher resolution since you will run out of data faster.

I know that the EU does it differently, but are the EU unlimited plans ACTUALLY unlimited, or is "unlimited" with a throttling after a GB cap? I mean, technically I have an "Unlimited" plan but my use gets throttled to 2G speeds if I exceed my 100g/30g caps.

Now it comes down to competition as you state, which there aint much of in the US relatively speaking. Take my home country of Denmark, here we do have pretty good 4G coverage and there are unlimited text, talk and data for 23 dollars a month, but the competition in Denmark is fierce as hell. In Spain, where I am now, that same deal costs closer to 80 dollars, but that is also going to change as the competition on the average plans is fierce as hell. Prices have fallen and amount of GB have increased dramatically in the last 3 years. Of course it is no where near as good as Scandinavia... Swedes are even better than Denmark.

That is kind of an apples to oranges comparison. In areas where the population density is at or higher than Denmark there are plenty of competing providers because there are plenty of consumers to compete for. In low density areas where the population served makes a 4G tower a bad investment there is lower coverage.

In the end however, short term, 5G wont matter squat if you have 10, 20, 50 GB a month. For 5G or even 4G to matter, you really need unlimited bandwidth or at least a cap that is 200GB+ a month, and that does not cost more than 30 dollars a month.

I think you have underestimated by a lot on where you set the point where it matters. It's like saying an electric car needs to travel 3000 miles on a single charge before it matters.

Like I said, my plan is 100gb/month but that only applies to data not on my list of sites for which I have no limits. the cost per gig will decline precipitously over time as the technology expands.. but 200gb+ per month for $30 today? Eh... good luck making money with with that business model on 4G.

 

[PeteEU]

I know that the EU does it differently, but are the EU unlimited plans ACTUALLY unlimited, or is "unlimited" with a throttling after a GB cap? I mean, technically I have an "Unlimited" plan but my use gets throttled to 2G speeds if I exceed my 100g/30g caps.

It is unlimited in Denmark, but depends on which country you are in... the "EU" has very little to do with the plans, other than pushing for more competition friendly rules that benefit the consumer. It is up to the individual country to push these rules through.. something like Italy does not do very well, which means the Italians suffer under pretty much the same bad conditions as the Americans do.

That is kind of an apples to oranges comparison. In areas where the population density is at or higher than Denmark there are plenty of competing providers because there are plenty of consumers to compete for. In low density areas where the population served makes a 4G tower a bad investment there is lower coverage.

No wrong. 4G antennas in Denmark and everywhere else are in population centers. It would be nuts to put such antennas in the middle of no where, so the "old American excuse" of "we are a big country", is just frankly bs. New York has far far worse coverage and prices with 10 million plus population in an area far smaller than Denmark... just saying.

I think you have underestimated by a lot on where you set the point where it matters. It's like saying an electric car needs to travel 3000 miles on a single charge before it matters.

No I dont. What do people use mobile devices for? Viewing video, and 1080p is more than enough for most screens. 4G can handle that easily with plenty of bandwidth to spare. The limit comes to the amount of data you have, and that is why you should really stream in 480p to get as much out of your data plan as possible and that requires even less bandwidth. Hence having the ability to download at 50mbs is just a waste of tech and money.

Like I said, my plan is 100gb/month but that only applies to data not on my list of sites for which I have no limits. the cost per gig will decline precipitously over time as the technology expands.. but 200gb+ per month for $30 today? Eh... good luck making money with with that business model on 4G.

Sites with no limits kinda skews the whole situation. Is Netflix and Youtube on that list? They account for like 70% of all internet traffic these days.

 

[jmotivator]

It is unlimited in Denmark, but depends on which country you are in... the "EU" has very little to do with the plans, other than pushing for more competition friendly rules that benefit the consumer. It is up to the individual country to push these rules through.. something like Italy does not do very well, which means the Italians suffer under pretty much the same bad conditions as the Americans do.

The Americans don't have "bad conditions", it's always kinda funny to watch people who don't live here tell me how bad life here is. :roll:

No wrong. 4G antennas in Denmark and everywhere else are in population centers. It would be nuts to put such antennas in the middle of no where, so the "old American excuse" of "we are a big country", is just frankly bs. New York has far far worse coverage and prices with 10 million plus population in an area far smaller than Denmark... just saying.

This is a nonsensical argument. Yes, we are a big country and we do have a lot of sparsely populated areas where an antenna may reach a handful of people, making it cost prohibitive to put towers in those areas. I am sure there are sparsely populated areas of Denmark with the same issue. I mean, I am looking right now at the cell coverage in Denmark and I see a lot of area without coverage, and a lot of areas that only have 3G coverage... and almost zero 5G coverage. My 5G plan costs me <$1 per GB.... how does yours stack up?

No I dont. What do people use mobile devices for? Viewing video, and 1080p is more than enough for most screens. 4G can handle that easily with plenty of bandwidth to spare. The limit comes to the amount of data you have, and that is why you should really stream in 480p to get as much out of your data plan as possible and that requires even less bandwidth. Hence having the ability to download at 50mbs is just a waste of tech and money.

*Sigh* First off, people won't use a service in ways the service can't support because the service can't support it so saying that people use 4G to do things that 4G can do isn't such a compelling argument. The "change the world" nature of 5G isn't just its huge bandwidth improvement it is also, for instance, low latency will allow people to start doing things, and allow software designers to begin considering things, that they currently can't with 4G. Other benefits include the ease of roll out and expanding coverage and the lower buy-in for new internet service providers.

Imagine, for instance, a TV that comes with built in 4K streaming without the use of any other hardware. Imagine 4K Augmented Reality display headsets that allow streaming AR content as a service... practically anywhere, with no extra hardware needed. Imagine companies no longer tied to high congestion areas because rural areas are no longer internet black holes. Imagine driverless cars that can communicate high density traffic forecasting data in real time, all the time.

I don't think you really grasp the breakthrough that wireless networking at the speed and latency of wired networking actually is.

But yeah, uh... you can stream 1080p Netflix with 4G already! What a waste 5G is! :roll:

Sites with no limits kinda skews the whole situation. Is Netflix and Youtube on that list? They account for like 70% of all internet traffic these days.

I don't have the list on hand, it is like 30 cable channels, if I recall, and they threw in one premium channel for "free" so I can also stream HBO with no cap.

 

[longview]

Update: On further review, the buoy in question is actually powered and runs a host of navigational signalling services for local boaters, so the 5G hotspot is likely just a normal plug-in device. I'm still curious where it links to, though. I see a few 5G nodes showing up further inland, but I am not connecting to them... so one of two guesses:

1) It's easier than I thought and the powered buoy also is wired for internet and the node is plugged into the buoy's internet...

2) Or the node has a better connection than I can manage to the other nodes further inland, so I'm making the connection out to the buoy that is then hopping back past me to an inland node on my side of the water.

More on 5G..

The other cool thing about this technology is that it can maintain a constant, stable, low latency connection between nodes even at relative speeds of 70 mph, so when vehicles start getting built with built-in 5G hubs, the highways themselves will become extended, virtual wired networks.

Granted, that is probably when Skynet becomes self-aware...

I cannot speak to your buoy,
But in the 80’s there was a plan to run fiber optics to every offshore
Place that got power. Many of the rigs in the Gulf of Mexico had fiber long before the land based fibers. Ship to shore telephones were $10.00 per minute back then, so they had a ready market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PeteEU]

The Americans don't have "bad conditions", it's always kinda funny to watch people who don't live here tell me how bad life here is. :roll:

The bad conditions is in reference to the lack of competition. I can choose between 10+ 4G providers here in Spain and even more in Denmark. You have now 3 major players in the US (with the merger). Not exactly massive competition. Sure there are local providers and all that, but still. There is nothing forcing the big 3 to lower prices to what you see in large parts of Europe or Asia.

This is a nonsensical argument. Yes, we are a big country and we do have a lot of sparsely populated areas where an antenna may reach a handful of people, making it cost prohibitive to put towers in those areas. I am sure there are sparsely populated areas of Denmark with the same issue. I mean, I am looking right now at the cell coverage in Denmark and I see a lot of area without coverage, and a lot of areas that only have 3G coverage... and almost zero 5G coverage. My 5G plan costs me <$1 per GB.... how does yours stack up?

5G is being rolled out as we speak in Denmark by multiple providers. And yes Denmark, like everywhere else has "dark zones" because no one lives there. That is my point. The excuse of "large country" is bs, it is the lack of competition to lack of investment that leads to high prices in the US and you dont put 4G or 5G in the middle of no where. You do put it in big population centres first and the roll it out to the rest of the population centres. We did the same in Denmark and Spain.

*Sigh* First off, people won't use a service in ways the service can't support because the service can't support it so saying that people use 4G to do things that 4G can do isn't such a compelling argument. The "change the world" nature of 5G isn't just its huge bandwidth improvement it is also, for instance, low latency will allow people to start doing things, and allow software designers to begin considering things, that they currently can't with 4G. Other benefits include the ease of roll out and expanding coverage and the lower buy-in for new internet service providers.

And none of that matters if you run out of monthly data in a couple of hours.

Imagine, for instance, a TV that comes with built in 4K streaming without the use of any other hardware. Imagine 4K Augmented Reality display headsets that allow streaming AR content as a service... practically anywhere, with no extra hardware needed. Imagine companies no longer tied to high congestion areas because rural areas are no longer internet black holes. Imagine driverless cars that can communicate high density traffic forecasting data in real time, all the time.

Yes, but again, you aint gonna be streaming 4k on mobile devices with a data cap. I fully understand the benefits of 4G and 5G, but as long as the modems are expensive and there are data caps, then it is a pipe dream. I would love to stream 4k Netflix on my non 4k phone or on my laptop via 4G or 5G, but as soon as I do that I run out of data for the month. 4G and 5G aint gonna be replacing home WIFI anytime soon for most people as long as there are data caps.

I don't think you really grasp the breakthrough that wireless networking at the speed and latency of wired networking actually is.

I do grasp it, but in the real world for the consumer it is a waste of money at the moment as long as the ISPs dont have the backbone to handle unlimited data via 4G and 5G. It is a bit like 4K TV.. no one/few transmits in 4K so why get a 4K TV? Sure Netflix has some 4K content, but it is not that much. And yes we can say the same about 1080p when it came out, but the difference there is that TV channels started to transmit in 1080p not long after we could get TVs that had it. Still waiting on my 4k CNN so to say.

But yeah, uh... you can stream 1080p Netflix with 4G already! What a waste 5G is! :roll:

And I am correct. For the average consumer, you can stream Netflix on 4G stutter free but of course you hit data caps.. so kinda a waste especially if you have to pay extra. 5G is at the moment a marketing tool to get people to invest in new phones in a couple of years. 5G will ONLY become really relevant when datacaps go way.

I don't have the list on hand, it is like 30 cable channels, if I recall, and they threw in one premium channel for "free" so I can also stream HBO with no cap.

So not websites.. but TV channels? yea right. When Netflix and Youtube are not counted against you, then we can talk.