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IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

Funny thing is...
I don't disagree with your statement or reasoning here...

what i do disagree with is your statement that it is a pseudoscience, that it provides no value.... or that it doesn't accurately measure intellectual aptitude... It certainly does, just not to the degree where it can be anywhere near perfect. That is why it is used as a valuable tool and not a contract of your fate lol. It accurately predicts success more than any other scientifically studied statistic.

Take ANYTHING we scientifically measure... nothing we measure scientifically is technically 100% accurate. You measure an apple with a ruler, and you get the amount of inches... is the ruler inaccurate? Yes and no... you can actually never figure out the true height of the apple, it is probably changing by every fraction of a second and the ruler is nowhere near precise enough to gather that information.... but the ruler is a useful tool, that is relatively accurate...that apple isn't going to suddenly be 12 inches on that ruler, it's fairly solid... depending on the humidity and temperature the rulers wood might expand and contract, etc. but it's not a pseudo-measuring device.

Now obviously, IQ is not accurate to the degree of a ruler is, there is a bit more volatility in it's measurements. Environmental conditions can affect it just like a ruler, but probably to higher degree. But there is NO QUESTION to the validity and value to real world applications of real phenomena IQ research has on both individuals and populations.
Hmm interesting. it appears that you have ran into some type of argument against IQ tests, where people fear some type of judgement. I am not making that argument.

There are actual real instruments than can measure an apple precisely. Using a ruler would be good for an informal guess that gives a rather good result. But nowhere near what a machinists calibers could give you. As far as that apple decaying and changing size; that can be derived through the proper equations. All in all I can help to notice that you are bending over backwards making excuses for a flawed test. If an IQ test is at best subjective then its conclusions have no intellectual meaning. We are not trying to measure a objects size (like an apple). We are trying to quantify human intelligence. The subject matter no matter the "tool" is itself at best subjective.

A person who has not aquired a formal education as an adult will always score low on any IQ test that is commonly used. An adult from the bush in some third world country may not possess the knowledge needed to even take an IQ test. But you cannot that the results of an attempted test as a measure of that persons intelligence. If you are merely using IQ tests to predict social outcomes then you are not measuring intelligence at all. You are trying to measure the ability of the subject to conform to the world around him. Those are social skills that are dependent on a lot of variables other than intelligence. The main deterrent to success is an education. If you cannot afford higher education you are a lot less likely to succeed in a major way. The lack of success is not an indicator of intelligence.

There are some arguments that intelligence isnt a trait but really something that is taught. Though obvious mental disorders and physical problem can objectively reduce intelligence. The are solely argues that there really are not people higher intelligence. No one is really born with magical powers. An artist isnt born an artist it learned.
 
No--you are failing to understand that IQ Tests taken as a child are very different than adult IQ tests (even the test itself is very different). The brain is nowhere near maturity and still molding itself--it is very much unclear what the child's intellectual potential is until later. If you simply look it up, you will immediately encounter what I and the other member are referring to.

But. it accurately predicts success lol. CHILDHOOD IQ... predicts adult success.

In no way did I say that childhood IQ tests are the same...but what I am saying is that there is a direct correlation with Childhood IQ, success, AND Adult IQ.

Children with a higher Childhood IQ tend to overwhelmingly have a higher adult IQ, and tend to be more successful in adult life.

THAT is all I am saying.
 
There are some arguments that intelligence isnt a trait but really something that is taught. Though obvious mental disorders and physical problem can objectively reduce intelligence. The are solely argues that there really are not people higher intelligence. No one is really born with magical powers. An artist isnt born an artist it learned.

I have honestly have no idea what those two paragraphs had anything to do with what I said, it seems you completely misunderstood my post...so I am going to address this last one instead.

That is OBJECTIVELY false... and I suspected you believed so... there is Definitive genetic correlation with IQ, there is a definitive correlation with IQ and success. There is a Scientists debate that genetics have around 60% to do with your intellect, some go as low as 40%...
The 100% nature argument is 100% debunked and it wouldn't make sense whatsoever anyway.

Unfortunately ...there are many people who are simply born genius... born smart, born with talent. And there are people born to never be able to be even average.
 
But. it accurately predicts success lol. CHILDHOOD IQ... predicts adult success.

In no way did I say that childhood IQ tests are the same...but what I am saying is that there is a direct correlation with Childhood IQ, success, AND Adult IQ.

Children with a higher Childhood IQ tend to overwhelmingly have a higher adult IQ, and tend to be more successful in adult life.

THAT is all I am saying.

@Celtic

I understand you are not claiming that the actual IQ tests are the same--the problem is that the variability between Childhood and Adult IQ is rather extreme, and for obvious reason once developmental Neuroscience is taken into account. For instance, the article I sited stated a .66 correlation factor, and I have seen other figures more loosely correlated than that. Now, .66 certainly has some notable correlation, but not nearly enough to follow through with the general claim you appear to be making (i.e. Childhood IQ ==> Adult IQ ==> Success). Now, the Adult IQ ==> Success touches bases with the data much more to a level that should certainly get more attention.
 
@Celtic

I understand you are not claiming that the actual IQ tests are the same--the problem is that the variability between Childhood and Adult IQ is rather extreme, and for obvious reason once developmental Neuroscience is taken into account. For instance, the article I sited stated a .66 correlation factor, and I have seen other figures more loosely correlated than that. Now, .66 certainly has some notable correlation, but not nearly enough to follow through with the general claim you appear to be making (i.e. Childhood IQ ==> Adult IQ ==> Success). Now, the Adult IQ ==> Success touches bases with the data much more to a level that should certainly get more attention.

.66 is a strong correlation factor...

that's about the same correlation of CO2 in the atmosphere with warming greenhouse effect,
 
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A person who has not aquired a formal education as an adult will always score low on any IQ test that is commonly used. An adult from the bush in some third world country may not possess the knowledge needed to even take an IQ test. But you cannot that the results of an attempted test as a measure of that persons intelligence.

@FreedomFromAll

Yes--exactly. Also, this is why IQ tests to such regions of the world are tremendously unfair and has produced horrific looking numbers for races inhabiting these regions
 
@FreedomFromAll

Yes--exactly. Also, this is why IQ tests to such regions of the world are tremendously unfair and has produced horrific looking numbers for races inhabiting these regions

That isn't true... adoptions studies dis-confirm that. They try to make the IQ tests as unbiased as possible... you really think they are giving bushmen vocabulary tests? lol
 
That isn't true... adoptions studies dis-confirm that. They try to make the IQ tests as unbiased as possible... you really think they are giving bushmen vocabulary tests? lol

Have I once said "bushmen" are given vocabulary tests?

You are the exact type of person who would encourage distribution of IQ tests to the most horrid sections of Africa in order to collect "data". This is precisely the danger of taking IQ tests to far, as though they were a Physics equation that tests overwhelmingly innate intellect
 
I have honestly have no idea what those two paragraphs had anything to do with what I said, it seems you completely misunderstood my post...so I am going to address this last one instead.

There is a Scientists debate that genetics have around 60% to do with your intellect, some go as low as 40%...
The 100% nature argument is 100% debunked and it wouldn't make sense whatsoever anyway.

Which is exactly why one is able to learn "Advanced" Mathematics as long as they are within healthy range, as previously discussed (which you objected to, thus why we are still discussing this matter)
 
Like I said, unfortunately--you don't understand it.

Don't understand what specifically? That IQ can vary throughout your life? I've have already mentioned that in my posts above. I am simply defending the validity of IQ tests and that it is not Pseudoscience.

I think it's rather wishful thinking to want to discredit IQ tests... and I find it actually harmful to everyone really... it attempts to ignore a very real issue our society faces...

we have a lot of people that are just born stupid(I say this as a relative xD, because if we are comparing ourselves to apes, humans are not very stupid at all).... A LOT of people, and there isn't much you can do about that fact. I certainly have no ideas.
 
Don't understand what specifically? That IQ can vary throughout your life? I've have already mentioned that in my posts above. I am simply defending the validity of IQ tests and that it is not Pseudoscience.

Did you read my longer entry several posts ago? I have in no way attempted to argue that it is "pseudoscience" at any point--rather, I have argued that it is significant. Now, it is a very "soft" science in comparison to Physics, and the room for error is quite high, but in many cases it is able to give a ball-park figure on various abilities associated with intelligence--many of which are important for Academic achievement

Where did you get the idea that I have stated otherwise?
 
Which is exactly why one is able to learn "Advanced" Mathematics as long as they are within healthy range, as previously discussed (which you objected to, thus why we are still discussing this matter)

I don't think I objected to that... IQ is often given as a range anyway. You give a score, but then there is a percent of error range.

What I objected to is that the SAT was not a good means to do that.

I certainly would not try to tackle a physics major if you have a 105 IQ, you'll just hate yourself xD
 
I don't think I objected to that... IQ is often given as a range anyway. You give a score, but then there is a percent of error range.

What I objected to is that the SAT was not a good means to do that.

I certainly would not try to tackle a physics major if you have a 105 IQ, you'll just hate yourself xD

The SAT is a measure that Psychologists use since they view it as a sufficient means, and it has shown to have a particularly strong correlation just as the College Major one pursues successfully.

As for Physics major with 105 IQ, that may be possible to survive the first semerster or two, but ultimately one will have to augment their intelligence out of necessity if they are ever going to do Statistical Mechanics and/or Senior-level Quantum Mechanics, ect. An IQ of 105 would not cut it, at all
 
Did you read my longer entry several posts ago? I have in no way attempted to argue that it is "pseudoscience" at any point--rather, I have argued that it is significant. Now, it is a very "soft" science in comparison to Physics, and the room for error is quite high, but in many cases it is able to give a ball-park figure on various abilities associated with intelligence--many of which are important for Academic achievement

Where did you get the idea that I have stated otherwise?

I didn't say that you did.

but I think I accidentally mixed one of the other guys posts with yours xD... my bad. There was one point where where had a side conversation about childhood IQ, that was a part of the discussion with the other guy. And when we had some disagreement on, I think I mixed a post.
 
@Celtic

Essentially, those with higher IQ's are better able to see the "Chess Board" of their life, and play a stronger "Game". Thus, they tend to be more successful than those with lower IQ's. Furthermore, those with higher IQ's have "moves" available to them that are not there for lower IQ people.

Is this a fair summation of your position?
 
Part II:

Now, IQ links to Standardized Tests such as the SAT and GRE are quite interesting as well--let us proceed with investigating the case of SAT scores. We will use the 1600 score standard (Note: a link to conversions between 2400 to 1600 score standards will be provided under *Sources* if one were curious). Consider, a score of 925 on the SAT (is claimed) to translate to a base 100 IQ. Here is an outline mapping out key points on the Bell Curve:

IQ, SAT, Meaning

- 55, 400, Trainable Moderate Mental Retardation
- 66, 525, Mild Mental Retardation
- 75, 630, Borderline Mental Retardation
- 87, 775, Dull
- 100, 935, Average
- 113, 1100, Bright
- 120, 1200, Very Bright
- 130, 1310, Extremely Bright
- 141, 1445, Briliant
- 151, 1575, Very Brilliant

For convenience, a few figures converted to the 2400 point scale (conversion chart here- [https://blog.prepscholar.com/new-sat...00-to-new-1600) ):

IQ, SAT

- 75, 820
- 87, 1020
- 100, 1260
- 113, 1510
- 120, 1670
- 130, 1840
- 141, 2070
- 151, 2340

[Note: There are various IQ scales, some reach to numbers higher well higher to this, this is a Standard Scale, others could be used with similar (though varying in extent) results]
Follow this link to find an IQ Reference Table which outlines IQ ranges and typical corresponding abilities:

[https://www.easycalculation.com/medi...core-table.php)
Below is a transcription of the outline (IQ range, Category, Typical Ability):

1. 0-24
Profound Mental Retardation
Limited or no ability to communicate, eat, bath, dress and toilet.

2. 25-39
Severe Mental Retardation
Limited ability to communicate, eat, bath, dress and toilet. No academic skills.

3. 40-54
Moderate Mental Retardation
Some independent self-help skills and very basic academic skills.

4. 55-69
Mild Mental Retardation
Usually able to dress/bath independently and can do simple jobs. Elementary school academics.

5. 70-79
Border Line
May live independently with difficulties. Can perform simple and repetitive jobs.

6. 80-89
Low Average
Can complete vocational education and live independently.

7. 90-109
Average
Can complete high school graduation and college with difficulty.

8. 110-119
High Average
Typical level of college graduates.

9. 120-129
Superior
Typical level of persons with doctoral degrees.


10. 130-144
Gifted
Capable of understanding highly, complex academic material.

11. 145-159
Genius
Exception intellectual ability and capable of looking beyond known facts.

12. 160-175
Extraordinary genius
Extraordinary talent like Albert Einstein

Sources

1. www.iqcomparisonsite.com/oldSATIQ.aspx
2. [https://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-es...college-major/)
3. What Is An IQ Test? What Is A High IQ Score?
4. [https://www.123test.com/interpretati...f-an-iq-score/)
5. [https://pumpkinperson.com/2015/12/16...q-equivalents/)
6. [https://steemit.com/education/@chhay...is-is-the-case)
7. [https://thetab.com/us/2017/04/10/whi...ghest-iq-64811)
8. [https://blog.prepscholar.com/new-sat...00-to-new-1600)
9. [https://www.easycalculation.com/medi...core-table.php)
10. [https://www.easycalculation.com/medi...core-table.php)
11. Academic achievement, income, IQ
12. Average IQ of students by college major and gender ratio | Dr. Randal S. Olson

hmm the 70 -79 description fits me pretty well is their an online test you would recommend?
 
IQ is not a measure of knowledge. And Knowledge is power.... You can actually be incredibly ignorant but still have an extremely high IQ(though it is less likely the case to be so)
It depends on the theorist, but in most intelligence tests, IQ is, in part, a measure of knowledge. People vary in their capacity to learn, access, and apply knowledge, and this is typically assessed when measuring verbal ability. The Stanford-Binet and Wechler tests, for example, test vocabulary.

The intelligence construct was originally developed to predict success in school. A person's ability to learn, remember, and apply knowledge has historically been an important part of that.
 
Having said that, people are born with particular "hardware" on a spectrum of "lowest grade" to "highest grade", which does introduce some constraints to the equation
Yes, but while we dispense with the Skinnerian myth that any child can become anything given the right environment, we should also dispense with the myth of Good Will Hunting where you can spend your life in bars, brawls, and working construction and go on to make great intellectual achievements. Great minds are the product of tireless work and study.

[And while I don't believe that anyone can do anything with their life, I do believe that most anyone can do most anything if they work at it]
 
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It depends on the theorist, but in most intelligence tests, IQ is, in part, a measure of knowledge. People vary in their capacity to learn, access, and apply knowledge, and this is typically assessed when measuring verbal ability. The Stanford-Binet and Wechler tests, for example, test vocabulary.

The intelligence construct was originally developed to predict success in school. A person's ability to learn, remember, and apply knowledge has historically been an important part of that.

I disagree... IQ tests only test knowledge(such as vocabulary) because it is correlated with intelligence, they would never use it as the soul means of determining IQ, but they have many different tests that can either show that the vocab part is an outlier or not... if this portion of the test is an outlier, it shows that either this particular person has a lot of experience with language specifically, or has a learning disability. Because actually, people tend to score similarly on all of the different tests... from spatial reasoning to vocabulary... it's actually pretty rare for peoples tests to be lopsided.
 
People IQ tested as children... have a higher correlation with success in adulthood than any other characteristic. It predicts success more than any other factor.... it certainly isn't the ONLY factor. But it is the factor that has the highest correlation.

Source on this??

Maybe it's because the only people who bother to IQ test their kids are the ones who's children seem extra gifted?
 
I disagree... IQ tests only test knowledge(such as vocabulary) because it is correlated with intelligence,
Intelligence is a hypothetical construct. It cannot be measured directly. Every intelligence measure is a correlate.

they would never use it as the soul means of determining IQ, but they have many different tests that can either show that the vocab part is an outlier or not... if this portion of the test is an outlier, it shows that either this particular person has a lot of experience with language specifically, or has a learning disability. Because actually, people tend to score similarly on all of the different tests... from spatial reasoning to vocabulary... it's actually pretty rare for peoples tests to be lopsided.
It's not rare at all. For example, we have known about sex differences forever. In fact, when the first IQ tests were developed, they chose and weighted items so that boys and girls would have the same average intelligence, despite differences in abstract reasoning and verbal ability.
 
Intelligence is a hypothetical construct. It cannot be measured directly. Every intelligence measure is a correlate.


It's not rare at all. For example, we have known about sex differences forever. In fact, when the first IQ tests were developed, they chose and weighted items so that boys and girls would have the same average intelligence, despite differences in abstract reasoning and verbal ability.

On an individual level people tend to have equal verbal ability and abstract reasoning. If you have high verbal ability.... you tend to also have high spatial ability.... Of course this is not always the case.

I get really tired of people embracing exceptions... what is valuable information in this kind of research is the patterns that arise.
 
On an individual level people tend to have equal verbal ability and abstract reasoning. If you have high verbal ability.... you tend to also have high spatial ability.... Of course this is not always the case.
It's true that the two are correlated, but certainly not "equal". It's not even stable across the lifespan. For most people, your abstract reasoning ability peaks in your early 20's and declines thereafter, whereas verbal ability can increase well into early adulthood and tends to remain stable until old age.
 
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