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Thread: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

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    Re: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus FPV View Post
    Well the DoD for example, the Army has a minimum IQ (85 IIRC)

    Also Law Enforcement, they have a maximum IQ.
    Of course but that doesnt validate IQ testing.

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    Re: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Of course but that doesnt validate IQ testing.
    I had no idea you were asking for validation. I was merely answering your question about who still uses it; many do.

    Hows this for validation, you have a choice of a child born with an IQ of 75 or an IQ of 135 all things being equal. What do you choose?

    I'm not suggesting that IQ tests accurately measure intelligence, but IQ scores certainly correlate with intelligence. To me intelligence is, above all, speed. Present a group of people with a problem and the more intelligent among them will ascertain the solution more quickly than the others. I also believe IQ is incredibly useful for determining the types of careers you do not have the aptitude for.

    To me, you take it with a grain of salt. If someone scores a few points higher than you, I wouldn't say without qualifier that they are "better" than you. But they may have a certain aptitude that you do not.
    If you need to misrepresent your opponent's position, you don't really believe in yours, you have no integrity and as Tony Montana says, "Any man without his word is a cockroach."

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    Re: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus FPV View Post
    I had no idea you were asking for validation. I was merely answering your question about who still uses it; many do.

    Hows this for validation, you have a choice of a child born with an IQ of 75 or an IQ of 135 all things being equal. What do you choose?

    I'm not suggesting that IQ tests accurately measure intelligence, but IQ scores certainly correlate with intelligence. To me intelligence is, above all, speed. Present a group of people with a problem and the more intelligent among them will ascertain the solution more quickly than the others. I also believe IQ is incredibly useful for determining the types of careers you do not have the aptitude for.

    To me, you take it with a grain of salt. If someone scores a few points higher than you, I wouldn't say without qualifier that they are "better" than you. But they may have a certain aptitude that you do not.
    Taht aptitude could well be no more than acquired skill and practise at completing IQ tests.
    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

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    Re: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Taht aptitude could well be no more than acquired skill and practise at completing IQ tests.
    I very much doubt that it its "no more than acquired skill" but its certainly a factor for a minority, especially for members of Mensa or posters from /r/iamverysmart who care so much, and brag so much, that they actually work on getting a better score.

    But an IQ based entirely on practice would suggest a rather brainless null hypothesis. In such circumstances, one's first score or score @ approx 18 is more useful than repeated scores when determining an aptitude.

    But I do not concern myself with such people, they're easy to identify (bragging) and even easier to avoid conversation with.
    If you need to misrepresent your opponent's position, you don't really believe in yours, you have no integrity and as Tony Montana says, "Any man without his word is a cockroach."

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    Re: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    It's ignoring the genetic influences of parental condition... they both compound each other... if you are in high socioeconomic status your parents tend to have a higher IQ... and you yourself tend to have a higher IQ as a result... you also tend to have a higher entry level job as a result(because of connections)....
    But people with a higher IQ tend to have lower wage entry level positions than people with better socioeconomic status... but they tend to get better wages overtime in the workforce in comparison...

    you really have to get down into the weeds on this kind of research and do a multi-variable analysis. I posted that study to simply prove the correlation, not to prove that it is a better predictor than socioeconomic status.

    I will give you a new study that does show this. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60289611000237
    There is a pay wall for that study.

    Again you are making bold claims. Apparently you believe that rich people are smarter than not rich people. If that were true there would be obvious consequences that are not existent on this planet. Obviously your reasoning is flawed.

    You also are treading into a very racially charged claim when you assert that genetics have anything to do with intelligence.

    And when you are backing a claim cherry picking studies isnt actually backing a claim. There are many studies out there. Many studies are not worth anything. On any given subject you can find a solitary study that backs whatever claim that you are making. If you claim that climate change is false, you can find someone out there that claims it is false. But what is important isnt some obscure study, what is important is if a field of science has a consensus.

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    Re: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    There is a pay wall for that study.

    Again you are making bold claims. Apparently you believe that rich people are smarter than not rich people. If that were true there would be obvious consequences that are not existent on this planet. Obviously your reasoning is flawed.
    There is a reason why the single biggest predictor of success is the success of one's parent's, and it isn't inherited wealth.

    Are you a betting man? If so, given a wager on who has the higher IQ between a random garbage man and a random CEO, who do you pick?

    Not even with 10 to 1 odds do I pick the garbage man, I say this knowing there are geniuses working blue collar jobs and absolute idiots running some companies.
    If you need to misrepresent your opponent's position, you don't really believe in yours, you have no integrity and as Tony Montana says, "Any man without his word is a cockroach."

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    Re: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    There is a pay wall for that study.

    Again you are making bold claims. Apparently you believe that rich people are smarter than not rich people. If that were true there would be obvious consequences that are not existent on this planet. Obviously your reasoning is flawed.

    You also are treading into a very racially charged claim when you assert that genetics have anything to do with intelligence.

    And when you are backing a claim cherry picking studies isnt actually backing a claim. There are many studies out there. Many studies are not worth anything. On any given subject you can find a solitary study that backs whatever claim that you are making. If you claim that climate change is false, you can find someone out there that claims it is false. But what is important isnt some obscure study, what is important is if a field of science has a consensus.
    I'm not cherry picking anything... They are studies I find that show really good evidence to my claims.

    "You also are treading into a very racially charged claim when you assert that genetics have anything to do with intelligence."
    ... see, another thing I knew... I knew... this was part of your motivation to call IQ a pseudoscience. IQ is genetic, there is no question. It is not entirely genetic...but there is solid evidence that there is a significant genetic component to it... and this is shown in adoption and twin studies. Like I said in a earlier post before, I understand why you don't like this truth... because it can be a powerful tool for discrimination, which racial discrimination especially is wrong. I don't like it either, but that is simply what the evidence points to....
    Now a racial/ethnic group difference in average IQ genetically is entirely possible... though it is not entirely verifiable currently... one because it's an extremely taboo subject and there is also epigenetics, genes that can turn off and on depending on conditions in the womb, environment, and parents epigentics.... which adds another complexity to this system... where your literal genetic structure can change depending on certain conditions in the womb.

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    Re: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus FPV View Post
    There is a reason why the single biggest predictor of success is the success of one's parent's, and it isn't inherited wealth.

    Are you a betting man? If so, given a wager on who has the higher IQ between a random garbage man and a random CEO, who do you pick?

    Not even with 10 to 1 odds do I pick the garbage man, I say this knowing there are geniuses working blue collar jobs and absolute idiots running some companies.
    There is no reason that a garbage man has to always be less intelligent than a CEO. The fact that you believe that is meaningless.

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    Re: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus FPV View Post
    I had no idea you were asking for validation. I was merely answering your question about who still uses it; many do.

    Hows this for validation, you have a choice of a child born with an IQ of 75 or an IQ of 135 all things being equal. What do you choose?

    I'm not suggesting that IQ tests accurately measure intelligence, but IQ scores certainly correlate with intelligence. To me intelligence is, above all, speed. Present a group of people with a problem and the more intelligent among them will ascertain the solution more quickly than the others. I also believe IQ is incredibly useful for determining the types of careers you do not have the aptitude for.

    To me, you take it with a grain of salt. If someone scores a few points higher than you, I wouldn't say without qualifier that they are "better" than you. But they may have a certain aptitude that you do not.
    If you present a group with a problem, those in the group with more experience with that type of problem will figure it out faster. That doesn't make them more intelligent it makes them more educated. IQ tests used in relation to careers do not measure actual intelligence it measures knowledge and the ability to use said knowledge. If I took a IQ test after attaining a degree in a certain field, I will score better in that IQ test for what I was trained for as opposed to someone who was not trained in that field. That is because the IQ tests used by higher education are not designed to actually deal with just intelligence. They are designed to place the student in a field of study to facilitate their career choices. Those types of tests have no validity in the study of human intelligence. They are not rigorous tests designed solely to quantify the intelligence of the tester.

    The claim that IQ assesses intelligence and the validity of any single measure of intelligence are both strongly contested. One of the reasons that IQ tests are highly contested is that are not a consensus on anyone test. If you have taken a IQ test, the time period in which you took that test could mean that you need to take a new test. Say you took the test in the 70's, those results are not accepted by todays standards. The same goes for the 80's and 90's. And it will keep being invalidated the more and more that science learns about intelligence. That is where the strongly contested part kicks in.

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    Re: IQ: Ranges, Meaning, and Achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I'm not cherry picking anything... They are studies I find that show really good evidence to my claims.

    "You also are treading into a very racially charged claim when you assert that genetics have anything to do with intelligence."
    ... see, another thing I knew... I knew... this was part of your motivation to call IQ a pseudoscience. IQ is genetic, there is no question. It is not entirely genetic...but there is solid evidence that there is a significant genetic component to it... and this is shown in adoption and twin studies. Like I said in a earlier post before, I understand why you don't like this truth... because it can be a powerful tool for discrimination, which racial discrimination especially is wrong. I don't like it either, but that is simply what the evidence points to....
    Now a racial/ethnic group difference in average IQ genetically is entirely possible... though it is not entirely verifiable currently... one because it's an extremely taboo subject and there is also epigenetics, genes that can turn off and on depending on conditions in the womb, environment, and parents epigentics.... which adds another complexity to this system... where your literal genetic structure can change depending on certain conditions in the womb.
    I see you are trying to dishonestly categorize my position to meet your argument. That wont go anywhere. "... I knew..." is your confirmation bias and nothing logical or rational. There isnt any actual evidence that rich people or races are more intelligent. Certainly what you have provided so far does not meet the standards of science to make that claim. It is more in the realm of your opinions on the subject rather than anything else.

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