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Cheap hydrogen production.

Checkerboard Strangler said:
Well, I'm not attempting to minimize recent developments. I want fusion to be feasible. But read the article very carefully anyway.
The golden meatball is fraught with a lot of side issues.
Just the fact that we're still trying for tritium-deuterium reactions is problematic.
Recent developments are still in the area of tritium-deuterium reactions, yes?
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There are some that are. However, no. The stellerator for example that is not true. While that is not being abandoned, it's not being used exclusively by any means.
 
RAMOSS said:
There are some that are. However, no. The stellerator for example that is not true. While that is not being abandoned, it's not being used exclusively by any means.
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Well then, I guess "watch this space" is the byword.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Well then, I guess "watch this space" is the byword.
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Absolutely. I personally see the cheap hydrogen also as a replacement for natural gas... and perhaps for fuel cells. .. not just fusion.
 
RAMOSS said:
Absolutely. I personally see the cheap hydrogen also as a replacement for natural gas... and perhaps for fuel cells. .. not just fusion.
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I think we can store and transport the hydrogen as natural gas, the infrastructure is already in place.
The process to strip off the hydrogen from the CH4 is fairly simple.
long term I think fuel cell vehicles will be where we end up.
Moving from a heat engine to a fuel cell, increases efficiency from about 35% to about 70%,
so imagine a Boeing 737, with an electric motor in the center of it's fan, and twice the existing range.
 
longview said:
I think we can store and transport the hydrogen as natural gas, the infrastructure is already in place.
The process to strip off the hydrogen from the CH4 is fairly simple.
long term I think fuel cell vehicles will be where we end up.
Moving from a heat engine to a fuel cell, increases efficiency from about 35% to about 70%,
so imagine a Boeing 737, with an electric motor in the center of it's fan, and twice the existing range.
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Well, that is using methane to create hydrogen.. that is not very efficient. Using the new electrolysis methods that use platinum free catalysts would be much more effective ni producing the hydrogen, the making of hydrogen could be done much more locally and decentralized, and the only green house gasses to the atmosphere would be via the manufactoring process of the electricity (be it solar panels or something else).
 
RAMOSS said:
Well, that is using methane to create hydrogen.. that is not very efficient. Using the new electrolysis methods that use platinum free catalysts would be much more effective ni producing the hydrogen, the making of hydrogen could be done much more locally and decentralized, and the only green house gasses to the atmosphere would be via the manufactoring process of the electricity (be it solar panels or something else).
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No, we use the hydrogen to create methane, (or gasoline, or jet fuel) as a storage device compatible
with existing infrastructure. We think of batteries as storage devices, but really anything that chemically
stores energy is a storage device. All of of fossil fuels are simply long term storage.
By making our own hydrocarbons from hydrogen, and atmospheric CO2, we create carbon neutral fuels.
The second and somewhat simpler step, would be to use steam reformation to strip the hydrogen off
of the hydrocarbon to use in a fuel cell, and finally let Mr Carnot get some rest.
People too quickly dismiss hydrocarbons, but it is how nature choose to store energy, it must have some merit.
 
longview said:
No, we use the hydrogen to create methane, (or gasoline, or jet fuel) as a storage device compatible
with existing infrastructure. We think of batteries as storage devices, but really anything that chemically
stores energy is a storage device. All of of fossil fuels are simply long term storage.
By making our own hydrocarbons from hydrogen, and atmospheric CO2, we create carbon neutral fuels.
The second and somewhat simpler step, would be to use steam reformation to strip the hydrogen off
of the hydrocarbon to use in a fuel cell, and finally let Mr Carnot get some rest.
People too quickly dismiss hydrocarbons, but it is how nature choose to store energy, it must have some merit.
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That is a possiblity, but being able to use hydrogen direct , with onsite production would be better. Steam reformation is energy intensive. If we used co2 from the atmosphere , that would be carbon neutral at least,.. and a number of fuel cells do the ch4 stripping to get to the hydrogen fairly effectively.
 
RAMOSS said:
That is a possiblity, but being able to use hydrogen direct , with onsite production would be better. Steam reformation is energy intensive. If we used co2 from the atmosphere , that would be carbon neutral at least,.. and a number of fuel cells do the ch4 stripping to get to the hydrogen fairly effectively.
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The problem with using hydrogen direct, is that we do not have much in the way of infrastructure to handle it.
It will take time to build that infrastructure and time to convert existing vehicles to use that infrastructure.
Converting the fuel to carbon neutral on the other hand, could enable our conversion to carbon neutral fuels
in a matter of a few years. The refineries can make the fuels, and distribute them to the gas stations.
The end user only sees a new pump color, with hopefully a lower price than the fossil fuel.
 
RAMOSS said:
That is a possiblity, but being able to use hydrogen direct , with onsite production would be better. Steam reformation is energy intensive. If we used co2 from the atmosphere , that would be carbon neutral at least,.. and a number of fuel cells do the ch4 stripping to get to the hydrogen fairly effectively.
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Since there is already a fuel cell car out there we can look at some of the specs.
https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/fcv.html
The Toyota Mirai carries 5 Kg of hydrogen for a range of 312 miles.
to carry 5 Kg of hydrogen as gasoline requires 27 liters, 7.13 gallons of gasoline.
The mass of the hydrogen storage tanks on the Mirai would be enough to support the steam reformer.
 
End result? We will be paying others to fuel our cars. H2 is extremely volatile. No way will the average Joe or Jane be allowed to fuel their cars.
Liquid fuels will be our primary fuels for a very long time to come.
 
CSP Most Efficient Way to Split Hydrogen from Water: Experts - SolarPACES

CSP Most Efficient Way to Split Hydrogen from Water: Experts (12/17 article)

Thermochemical solar leverages heat from concentrated solar power (CSP) for chemical reactions. Research into thermochemical solar reactors to split water to hydrogen is a priority in top national laboratories internationally.
=====================================================================================================
I was thinking that doing this in arid coastal communities like California could be a novel way to desalinate sea water. Burn the hydrogen with the oxygen to make potable water from sea water & sunlight. Use the incoming sea water to cool the water condensers. Use the thermal energy produced by the burning to power the plant.
 
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UtahBill said:
End result? We will be paying others to fuel our cars. H2 is extremely volatile. No way will the average Joe or Jane be allowed to fuel their cars.
Liquid fuels will be our primary fuels for a very long time to come.
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A vehicle with a tank of pressurized hydrogen on board is also a potential bomb if involved in an accident.

There's no practical way to safely fuel a vehicle with hydrogen without developing a sophisticated transfer interface.
 
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UtahBill said:
End result? We will be paying others to fuel our cars. H2 is extremely volatile. No way will the average Joe or Jane be allowed to fuel their cars.
Liquid fuels will be our primary fuels for a very long time to come.
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Gasoline is just as volatile.
 
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RAMOSS said:
https://www.computerworld.com/artic...gen-fueled-cars-arent-little-hindenburgs.html

As for fueling, this is how the it is done

https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/stations.html

View attachment 67228966
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I disagree with many of the statements about hydrogen in a big storage tank at 10,000 psi in your trunk not being a major safety problem. Look back at the newsreel footage of the Hindenburgh disaster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLzY88uHFn0 Rear end or side collisions are too common to wave this problem away.
 
JacksinPA said:
I disagree with many of the statements about hydrogen in a big storage tank at 10,000 psi in your trunk not being a major safety problem. Look back at the newsreel footage of the Hindenburgh disaster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLzY88uHFn0 Rear end or side collisions are too common to wave this problem away.
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I think you fail to understand the safety features the car manufactors think about.
 
UtahBill said:
Only after it has had air mixed with it, using a carburetor or throttle body.
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The one thing about gasline, wonce it starts burning.. it stays on the ground and keeps on burning till it's gone.

Hydrogen goes straight up.. and dissipates ..
 
RAMOSS said:
Now, one of the potential 'alternative energy' solutions is moving to a hydrogen economy. I don't know if solid state batteries would be better, but the potential for having fuel cell cars would be an interesting alternative. Cheap hydrogen coudl also replace natural gas, oil and methane for heating.. the trick is trying to produce it economically enough.

The commercialization of making cheap hydrogen from water is getting closer. A company that is trying to make hydrogen production from solar cells has adopted new catalyist technology in their efforts .. to replace platinum as a catalyst with common elements that are 20 times cheaper.

I don't know if they will be successful in the long run (until the products are actually sold, who knows).

But, here is the article about it.

http://www.hypersolar.com/news_detail.php?id=88
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My understanding from discussions with chemists is that H2 production via electrolysis is not a feasible method for industrial scale production.

Apparently, the catalysts will not be effective in the long term without pristine distilled water, and tanks/environments which is challenging and energy intensive to get anyway in industrial quantities, among other problems.

Right now, the vast majority of hydrogen production commercially comes from natural gas.
 
RAMOSS said:
I think you fail to understand the safety features the car manufactors think about.
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You're swallowing their line because they are being paid to develop & cell these cars. It's very one-sided. Hardly an objective overview.

Let's say for argument that your H2 car is rear ended & the H2 tank is crumpled & there is an H2 breach. Sources of ignition like sparks are common in accidents as it is metal against metal. You would wind up with anything from a fire ball to a fuel-air explosion. Fuel-air explosives are like small nukes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmRASCHJe2Q
 
Threegoofs said:
My understanding from discussions with chemists is that H2 production via electrolysis is not a feasible method for industrial scale production.

Apparently, the catalysts will not be effective in the long term without pristine distilled water, and tanks/environments which is challenging and energy intensive to get anyway in industrial quantities, among other problems.

Right now, the vast majority of hydrogen production commercially comes from natural gas.
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That is quickly becoming obsolete... but yes, that is true at the moment. That is why the new catalysts for water electrolysis is so interesting, it reduces the cost of producing hydrogen drastically
 
Threegoofs said:
My understanding from discussions with chemists is that H2 production via electrolysis is not a feasible method for industrial scale production.

Apparently, the catalysts will not be effective in the long term without pristine distilled water, and tanks/environments which is challenging and energy intensive to get anyway in industrial quantities, among other problems.

Right now, the vast majority of hydrogen production commercially comes from natural gas.
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Thermochemical cracking of water is more than twice as efficient as photovoltaic electrolysis of water:

What is the advantage of solar reactors over solar electrolysis?

Our colleagues have calculated that probably the most efficient way to produce solar hydrogen leverages solar heat for a thermochemical reaction. There are overall efficiency advantages. When electrolysis is powered by solar photovoltaic an efficiency of only 12 percent to 14 percent is reported.

For the thermochemical water-splitting reaction, some solar reactor systems have efficiencies of over 60 percent. The two-step solar thermochemical conversion is still subject to research, but shows a long-term efficiency potential of up to 25 percent.

CSP is the Most Efficient Renewable to Split Water for Hydrogen - SolarPACES
 
JacksinPA said:
Thermochemical cracking of water is more than twice as efficient as photovoltaic electrolysis of water:

What is the advantage of solar reactors over solar electrolysis?

Our colleagues have calculated that probably the most efficient way to produce solar hydrogen leverages solar heat for a thermochemical reaction. There are overall efficiency advantages. When electrolysis is powered by solar photovoltaic an efficiency of only 12 percent to 14 percent is reported.

For the thermochemical water-splitting reaction, some solar reactor systems have efficiencies of over 60 percent. The two-step solar thermochemical conversion is still subject to research, but shows a long-term efficiency potential of up to 25 percent.

CSP is the Most Efficient Renewable to Split Water for Hydrogen - SolarPACES
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Without a catalyst, that is.

There are several non-platnium catalysts that sharply increase the electrolysis.

https://phys.org/news/2018-02-high-efficiency-low-cost-catalyst-electrolysis.html

and when it comes to a company trying to commercialize a different one

HyperSolar - News
 
RAMOSS said:
The one thing about gasline, wonce it starts burning.. it stays on the ground and keeps on burning till it's gone.

Hydrogen goes straight up.. and dissipates ..
Click to expand...

Hydrogen gets into the air & mixes with the oxygen. Add source of ignition (spark, etc) & you have an explosion.
 
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