Toytoa moving to solid state batteries for electic cars in 2020

[RAMOSS]

https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/25/t...e-battery-could-make-its-way-to-cars-by-2020/

Toytoa looks like it is making progress on making solid state batteries in production for it's cars in by 2020. THe solid state batteries have a number of advantages over the current technology.

1) Safer. The solid state batteries will no longer have the flamable liquids and won't have the fire issues.
2) Higher energy density. It should be able to hold double ` the current energy density of batteries being used now. Supposedly, that will give a 500 miles range on a charge.
3) Durability. The solid state battery estimated life expectancy will be 10 years, not 2 years.
4) It also charges 6 times faster than the current batteries.

There are also some advances in solid state batteries that will improve on the ones that Toyota will be using in 3 years that might make things even more effective.

 

[Chomsky]

With the world moving to electric cars in this century, if Toyota or another automotive company causes a pradigmatic shift in battery technology, while holding the patent, they will be in an amazing position.

It would be tantamount to holding a patent on diesel or fuel-injection technology, last century.

 

[OlNate]

I can tell you most car companies are investing heavily into electric powered vehicles. I know there's a certain "oil will never die" demographic in this forum, but I suspect there were a lot of folks laughing at the notion that horses would be one day replaced almost entirely by those crazy, new-fangled horseless carriages.

Given that battery and recharge tech is lagging, I would expect there's a lot of money being invested in the race to see who gets there first, in terms of perfecting the technology. This is good news, since it will help us make better use of the energy sources out there, such as wind and solar, who's high overhead is due entirely to the fact that we simply haven't come up with good storage and transfer techs to make them easier to use than oil. But, once we do, the cost of gathering those resources will be significantly less than it costs to get oil and gas out of the ground, and should, therefore, be cheaper for the consumer.

It will be an interesting century.

 

[longview]

With the world moving to electric cars in this century, if Toyota or another automotive company causes a pradigmatic shift in battery technology, while holding the patent, they will be in an amazing position.

It would be tantamount to holding a patent on diesel or fuel-injection technology, last century.

I think the world may be moving towards electric driven cars, but it is too early to assume how the energy will be carried.
It may be batteries, but hydrogen fuel cells may end up winning.
A few of the modern hybrids are true serial hybrids, meaning the wheels are only driven by electric motors.
The design follows that which trains and ships have been using for about 40 years, but with a small storage factor.

 

[RAMOSS]

With the world moving to electric cars in this century, if Toyota or another automotive company causes a pradigmatic shift in battery technology, while holding the patent, they will be in an amazing position.

It would be tantamount to holding a patent on diesel or fuel-injection technology, last century.

It's actually a joint venture with a British company where it holds joint patents. Solid State Batteries Aim to Top Li-ion | EE Times

That company is actually into making solid state battery chips that can be scaled up form small to larger applications. Oh, another advantage is that the temperature range solid state batteries will work is -50 Celsius to 150 degress Celsius , a much bigger range than the current batteries. Since the charge time and durablity is much greater, and it has a high degree of capability, applications I see being used would be for mobile electronics, UPS systems, energy storage for wind/solar setups (including home and commercial wind farms).

Another advancement (not quite ready for prime time yet) is being able to use sodium in class anoids instead of lithium. The issue there is there has to be a better cathod developed , which I am sure is feasible. Using sodium instead of lithium is less toxic, and sodium is much more abundant and cheaper than lithium. https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology. Hopefully, that technology will be advanced, and it will be goodenough.

 

[joG]

https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/25/t...e-battery-could-make-its-way-to-cars-by-2020/

Toytoa looks like it is making progress on making solid state batteries in production for it's cars in by 2020. THe solid state batteries have a number of advantages over the current technology.

1) Safer. The solid state batteries will no longer have the flamable liquids and won't have the fire issues.
2) Higher energy density. It should be able to hold double ` the current energy density of batteries being used now. Supposedly, that will give a 500 miles range on a charge.
3) Durability. The solid state battery estimated life expectancy will be 10 years, not 2 years.
4) It also charges 6 times faster than the current batteries.

There are also some advances in solid state batteries that will improve on the ones that Toyota will be using in 3 years that might make things even more effective.

That would indeed be a boon for electromobilty, if the article is right and the price/ecology is also viable. The question of batteries and charging them has been the main reason I haven't wanted an electric car so far.

 

[Hawkeye10]

It's actually a joint venture with a British company where it holds joint patents. Solid State Batteries Aim to Top Li-ion | EE Times

That company is actually into making solid state battery chips that can be scaled up form small to larger applications. Oh, another advantage is that the temperature range solid state batteries will work is -50 Celsius to 150 degress Celsius , a much bigger range than the current batteries. Since the charge time and durablity is much greater, and it has a high degree of capability, applications I see being used would be for mobile electronics, UPS systems, energy storage for wind/solar setups (including home and commercial wind farms).

Another advancement (not quite ready for prime time yet) is being able to use sodium in class anoids instead of lithium. The issue there is there has to be a better cathod developed , which I am sure is feasible. Using sodium instead of lithium is less toxic, and sodium is much more abundant and cheaper than lithium. https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology. Hopefully, that technology will be advanced, and it will be goodenough.

That sounds like the major advance to me......people dont want to talk about it but so called range anxiety is closely related to real world operation temperatures.....the knowledge that the car will be dead fast when it is very hot or very cold, exactly when people dont want to be dealing with a dead car who knows where.

 

[joG]

With the world moving to electric cars in this century, if Toyota or another automotive company causes a pradigmatic shift in battery technology, while holding the patent, they will be in an amazing position.

It would be tantamount to holding a patent on diesel or fuel-injection technology, last century.

They would probably have to license production and distribution like we have seen happen in other industries, but the fees would surely do their bottom like good.

I wonder if this means Musk's battery factory is already out of date.

 

[RAMOSS]

That sounds like the major advance to me......people dont want to talk about it but so called range anxiety is closely related to real world operation temperature.....the knowledge that the car will be dead fast when it is very hot or very cold, exactly when people dont want to be dealing with a dead car who knows where.

I think the items that make it a major advance are 1) temperature range 2) energy density 3) Durability (number of times there can be a charge/discharge cycle), 4) safety (no spontaneous fires on air planes///remember samsungs problems) 5) charge time (6 times faster) . I can see it getting cheaper too , just like led light bulbs did.

For cars, having the faster charge up time, and extended range with much better durability of the batteries will make that choice much more attractive in the not so distant future. ... hopefully the ramp up time to getting it fully commercialized won't be too difficult. I am also hopeful for the non-transportation applications of it.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I think the items that make it a major advance are 1) temperature range 2) energy density 3) Durability (number of times there can be a charge/discharge cycle), 4) safety (no spontaneous fires on air planes///remember samsungs problems) 5) charge time (6 times faster) . I can see it getting cheaper too , just like led light bulbs did.

For cars, having the faster charge up time, and extended range with much better durability of the batteries will make that choice much more attractive in the not so distant future. ... hopefully the ramp up time to getting it fully commercialized won't be too difficult. I am also hopeful for the non-transportation applications of it.

I am pretty sure that we have plenty of science telling us that it is range anxiety that keeps people from Electric cars......solving the temp problem is at the top of the list on that.

 

[blackjack50]

https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/25/t...e-battery-could-make-its-way-to-cars-by-2020/

Toytoa looks like it is making progress on making solid state batteries in production for it's cars in by 2020. THe solid state batteries have a number of advantages over the current technology.

1) Safer. The solid state batteries will no longer have the flamable liquids and won't have the fire issues.
2) Higher energy density. It should be able to hold double ` the current energy density of batteries being used now. Supposedly, that will give a 500 miles range on a charge.
3) Durability. The solid state battery estimated life expectancy will be 10 years, not 2 years.
4) It also charges 6 times faster than the current batteries.

There are also some advances in solid state batteries that will improve on the ones that Toyota will be using in 3 years that might make things even more effective.

500 miles? Wow. What speed of course? Because my truck and my girlfriend's car have a range of about 450 or so on highway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Chomsky]

I think the world may be moving towards electric driven cars, but it is too early to assume how the energy will be carried.
It may be batteries, but hydrogen fuel cells may end up winning.
A few of the modern hybrids are true serial hybrids, meaning the wheels are only driven by electric motors.
The design follows that which trains and ships have been using for about 40 years, but with a small storage factor.

It's all up for grabs - you are right.

But whatever automaker or tech group comes up with a dominate technology like diesel or fuel injection, if they can patent it, they're going to clean-up house!

 

[longview]

It's all up for grabs - you are right.

But whatever automaker or tech group comes up with a dominate technology like diesel or fuel injection, if they can patent it, they're going to clean-up house!

You are likely correct, but it will have to compete with whatever else is coming down the pipe.
Long term I really see fuel cells winning out, perhaps with some sort of reformer on board,
so the fuel used would be liquid hydrocarbon based.

 

[blackjack50]

With the world moving to electric cars in this century, if Toyota or another automotive company causes a pradigmatic shift in battery technology, while holding the patent, they will be in an amazing position.

It would be tantamount to holding a patent on diesel or fuel-injection technology, last century.

Can I buy stock now? Or do I need to wait? Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RAMOSS]

500 miles? Wow. What speed of course? Because my truck and my girlfriend's car have a range of about 450 or so on highway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am sure that is assuming sticking to the speed limit. There are indications that it potentially can get higher than that.. but well, let's see if they can pull of the 500 mile range first!.. for that matter, even 350 to 400 with a charge time 6 times faster.

And, having double the capacity for cell phones, with a 6 times faster charge time, and having a much longer durability will be much of an advantage for that industry too (as well as not worrying about cell phone blowing up!). That also will have implications with tablets and laptops. Also battery UPS devices.

 

[RAMOSS]

Just to show that this technology is not vapor ware (which happens all too often)...

A company is commercializing them, and the smaller batteries should be available within 2 years .. They are not quite on par cost wise with the liquid lithium-ion batteries, but once their use becomes more common, I am sure the price will go down

Hitachi Zosen ready to commercialise solid state lithium battery | eeNews Europe

Places where IMO, the smaller cell would be acceptable .. any place where safety is an issue., and durability too.

 

[Renae]

https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/25/t...e-battery-could-make-its-way-to-cars-by-2020/

Toytoa looks like it is making progress on making solid state batteries in production for it's cars in by 2020. THe solid state batteries have a number of advantages over the current technology.

1) Safer. The solid state batteries will no longer have the flamable liquids and won't have the fire issues.
2) Higher energy density. It should be able to hold double ` the current energy density of batteries being used now. Supposedly, that will give a 500 miles range on a charge.
3) Durability. The solid state battery estimated life expectancy will be 10 years, not 2 years.
4) It also charges 6 times faster than the current batteries.

There are also some advances in solid state batteries that will improve on the ones that Toyota will be using in 3 years that might make things even more effective.

Why don't they just use Kyber Crystals to power cars?

 

[RAMOSS]

Why don't they just use Kyber Crystals to power cars?

The source for them is far far away.. and were made long time ago.

 

[Deuce]

I've ofte remarked that a battery that is half the size, half the weight, half the cost, and double the energy density of lithium ion is about a trillion dollar invention.

 

[Deuce]

Why don't they just use Kyber Crystals to power cars?

The source was destroyed by a gargantuan laser beam, their prices are going through the roof

 

[RAMOSS]

I've ofte remarked that a battery that is half the size, half the weight, half the cost, and double the energy density of lithium ion is about a trillion dollar invention.

I do not think that initially, it will be half the price. .. or double the energy density. At first, it will be a bit more expensive, and about the same energy density, but there is a definite path forward for getting to half the weight, half the cost and double the energy density. The increased temperature zone for it being useful might compensate for the price, and the fact it won't blow up will give plenty of motivation to adopt it. If they can get it EQUAL in performance and just slightly smaller without it blowing up, the cell phone makers will adopt it not to risk public relation disasters a la Samsung.

Once it gets adopted, you will see price/performance improvements on it the same way they did with LED light bulbs.

 

[Deuce]

I do not think that initially, it will be half the price. .. or double the energy density. At first, it will be a bit more expensive, and about the same energy density, but there is a definite path forward for getting to half the weight, half the cost and double the energy density. The increased temperature zone for it being useful might compensate for the price, and the fact it won't blow up will give plenty of motivation to adopt it. If they can get it EQUAL in performance and just slightly smaller without it blowing up, the cell phone makers will adopt it not to risk public relation disasters a la Samsung.

Once it gets adopted, you will see price/performance improvements on it the same way they did with LED light bulbs.

Yes, incremental progress is more likely. At some point a critical mass, if you will, will be hit when the economics of the battery surpass that of gasoline. Then the floodgates open as more money pours into what is now a titanic new market.

 

[RAMOSS]

Yes, incremental progress is more likely. At some point a critical mass, if you will, will be hit when the economics of the battery surpass that of gasoline. Then the floodgates open as more money pours into what is now a titanic new market.

From the sounds of it, the first batteries will be around the same price/performance but 5 times the durability,,, for the smaller batteries at least (the non-car ones). I don't know about the car batteries.. a bit more expensive for a 10 year life expectancy instead of a 2 year one is immense.

 

[blackjack50]

I am sure that is assuming sticking to the speed limit. There are indications that it potentially can get higher than that.. but well, let's see if they can pull of the 500 mile range first!.. for that matter, even 350 to 400 with a charge time 6 times faster.

And, having double the capacity for cell phones, with a 6 times faster charge time, and having a much longer durability will be much of an advantage for that industry too (as well as not worrying about cell phone blowing up!). That also will have implications with tablets and laptops. Also battery UPS devices.

Yea. I am legitimately excited on this. A lot of rednecks like me would gladly switch IF they still have towing capacity and the ability to off road when needed.

The crowd is not the sum of its parts.

I am a republican who did not vote for Trump (Or Hillary).

 

[RAMOSS]

Yea. I am legitimately excited on this. A lot of rednecks like me would gladly switch IF they still have towing capacity and the ability to off road when needed.

Well, if you look at the performance of the tesla sports, yes, it will have towing capcity (which of course will decrease the amount of time between charges), Singe one of the major items that is being developed with the current technology is getting a 1000 HP 12 rig electric truck , I am sure there will be plenty of towing capacity.