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Anti-Vaccine: Please Stop!

Bucky said:
I have seen personally friends that vaccinated their children and than they developed autism. Personally, that is why I never got my daughter vaccinated.
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:lamo :lamo :lamo :lamo

I have personally seen friends give ice-cream to their children, and later the children were bitten by a spider. Ice-cream causes spider bites!
 
blackjack50 said:
Measles. FREAKING MEASELS! They are coming back because of you anti vaccine idiots. I understand rejecting a flu vaccine...sort of. But not really. But MEASELS! Does anyone know where the anti MEASELS vaccine crowd came from? What's next? Rejecting polio and smallpox? Maybe we should save fleas and bring back the bubonic plague?

The Anti-Vaccination Movement | Think

Then of course the stuff making it around Facebook too.

What is your 2 cents?
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The Plague is alive and well in parts of the world still:

https://www.cdc.gov/plague/history/index.html
 
Helix said:
my favorite is when an anti-vaxxer tells me that the flu vaccine gave him the flu. when you press for symptoms, the poster describes stomach flu, which isn't the flu. then when you press further, it's CT rageface time. **** all that. i don't have enough evening to waste that kind of time. take an immunology class and call me in the morning.
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Both times I got the flu vaccine I was immediately and severely sick... I'll never get another flu vaccine.
 
OlNate said:
Speaking to your first point, I disagree...it's why most legal systems have something called "criminal negligence". Understanding that in a small percentage of people vaccines don't work, if you choose not to vaccinate your kids, and they pass on a disease that kills mine, despite me giving them their vaccination, to me that should be criminal negligence on the part of the person of the person responsible for getting those vaccinations, which would be you. Very tough to prove, of course...which is why vaccination absolutely should be mandatory.
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You can't control life so you should really stop trying... as long as kids are hurt by vaccines then it should never be mandatory. Ever.
 
spud_meister said:
:lamo :lamo :lamo :lamo

I have personally seen friends give ice-cream to their children, and later the children were bitten by a spider. Ice-cream causes spider bites!
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Yes, because getting a vaccine and having an immediate adverse reaction can never happen... :roll:
 
Bodhisattva said:
Both times I got the flu vaccine I was immediately and severely sick... I'll never get another flu vaccine.
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fair enough. some people are allergic to eggs.
 
Helix said:
fair enough. some people are allergic to eggs.
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I might not have gotten the flu, although one time I am sure it was... and I am not allergic to eggs. Just a fluke most likely. Still hated the odds.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Yes, because getting a vaccine and having an immediate adverse reaction can never happen... :roll:
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Sure, reactions can happen, the reaction we're talking about is (amongst other things) several neurological differences that are present from birth. Are vaccine reactions time travelers?

I know, and it is well documented, that individuals can have negative reactions to vaccines. Autism is not an allergic reaction, it is a complex syndrome of many neurological and genetic abnormalities. If you're claiming vaccines cause autism, you're gonna have to show me how, or I'll just laugh at you too.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Not really, you are making things more complicated than need be. A simple solution is private schools or home-schooling. :shrug:

I am also opposed to the socialist ideal that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

This is MY life, not yours or your children's...or "the State's." You do what's best for you and let me do what's best for me. Feel free to ask me to be, or if I have been inoculated, and then choose wherther or not to associate with me.

But never think YOUR desires are so much more important than my rights that you can compel me to accommodate them without my resistance.

Again, I have no problem with vaccinations. But it should remain my choice. For example, I had to get annual flu shots while in the army (and as a military dependent). Every time I used to get sick...in fact it was the only time I ever got sick as an adult. Thirty years ago I stopped taking them...never been ill a day in my life afterwards. Go figure.

Tell you what...I'll never take another flu shot voluntarily again. :no:
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Woosh...well, thanks for the response, it was interesting. I think that the fact that I'd support government agencies breaking into your house, strapping you down, and shooting you and your children (universal "you", of course, you've probably had your shots, and I don't know if you have kids) full of vaccines, if it meant maintaining the required ratio of vaccinated to not vaccinated to ensure that we don't have things like polio killing people again, probably means we won't find common ground...hehe... But hey, given your self admitted lack of concern for anyone but yourself (not meant as a diss, you seem to wear it with pride), at least you've let me off the hook for advocating for that...seeing as, in return, I don't really have to care about you, as to me my right to be protected and my kid to be protected from people not taking vaccinations outweighs your right not to. I mean, isn't that the inverse of what you're saying?

See, I knew Libertarianism was confusing...how you guys decide who's rights trumps who's must be quite the elaborate affair.
 
OlNate said:
Woosh...well, thanks for the response, it was interesting. I think that the fact that I'd support government agencies breaking into your house, strapping you down, and shooting you and your children (universal "you", of course, you've probably had your shots, and I don't know if you have kids) full of vaccines, if it meant maintaining the required ratio of vaccinated to not vaccinated to ensure that we don't have things like polio killing people again, probably means we won't find common ground...hehe... But hey, given your self admitted lack of concern for anyone but yourself (not meant as a diss, you seem to wear it with pride), at least you've let me off the hook for advocating for that...seeing as, in return, I don't really have to care about you, as to me my right to be protected and my kid to be protected from people not taking vaccinations outweighs your right not to. I mean, isn't that the inverse of what you're saying?

See, I knew Libertarianism was confusing...how you guys decide who's rights trumps who's must be quite the elaborate affair.
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The bolded part is where your confusion lies, and makes my original point about such advocacy leading to future government abuses.

You seem to think that beyond your simple right to protect yourself and your family via voluntary inoculations, this somehow translates into a right to force others to inoculate to protect yourself as well.

I believe you have the right to inoculate yourself and encourage (or in the case of your own minor children, compel) members of your own family and friends circle to do so. I do not believe you have the right to compel me to do so.

Definitely not that the government should have to power to do so either except in direst emergency (like a cure for a zombie virus ;) ).

Libertarianism is very simple. Your rights to do what you wish with yourself and your property end where my rights to do or not to do the same with my life or property begins.
 
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Captain Adverse said:
The bolded part is where your confusion lies, and makes my original point about such advocacy leading to future government abuses.

You seem to think that beyond your simple right to protect yourself and your family via voluntary inoculations, this somehow translates into a right to force others to inoculate to protect yourself as well.

I believe you have the right to inoculate yourself and encourage (or in the case of your own minor children, compel) members of your own family and friends circle to do so. I do not believe you have the right to compel me to do so.

Definitely not that the government should have to power to do so either except in direst emergency (like a cure for a zombie virus ;) ).

Libertarianism is very simple. Your rights to do what you wish with yourself and your property end where my rights to do or not to do the same with my life or property begins.
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So you have the right to expose my family to MEASELS?
 
Captain Adverse said:
The bolded part is where your confusion lies, and makes my original point about such advocacy leading to future government abuses.

You seem to think that beyond your simple right to protect yourself and your family via voluntary inoculations, this somehow translates into a right to force others to inoculate to protect yourself as well.

I believe you have the right to inoculate yourself and encourage (or in the case of your own minor children, compel) members of your own family and friends circle to do so. I do not believe you have the right to compel me to do so.

Definitely not that the government should have to power to do so either except in direst emergency (like a cure for a zombie virus ;) ).

Libertarianism is very simple. Your rights to do what you wish with yourself and your property end where my rights to do or not to do the same with my life or property begins.
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Except in a small number of people, the vaccine is ineffective, so I might vaccinate my kids, but it might not work. If suddenly there is a lot of people choosing to exercise their right not to take the vaccine, and my kid gets sick, despite my doing everything I can to protect them, then we have a problem, no? Don't I, as you said before, have a right to be protected? Or, was it more that I have the right to protect, in which case rather than having the government force people to have their shots, I should, what, go out and force them myself? Or harass and do whatever it takes to keep them away from my kids? How would I even know who has and hasn't had their shots? Maybe a national registry of people who do not take their shots?

"Your rights to do what you wish with yourself and your property end where my rights to do or not to do the same with my life or property begins." So, per above, your right not to be vaccinated ends so long as there is a chance that doing so could take from me my right to protect my family. Until there is another alternative actively in play, mandatory vaccination is the only thing that ensures that my right to protect my family is respected.

Am I understanding your stance properly?

PS: Enjoying the chat, trying hard not to turn this into a shouting match, so I'm putting this in here...everything devolves so quickly, and I'm interested in hearing how a Libertarian resolves this. If you don't want to, that's cool...just too many brawls already, let's not have one. :)
 
OlNate said:
Except in a small number of people, the vaccine is ineffective, so I might vaccinate my kids, but it might not work. If suddenly there is a lot of people choosing to exercise their right not to take the vaccine, and my kid gets sick, despite my doing everything I can to protect them, then we have a problem, no? Don't I, as you said before, have a right to be protected? Or, was it more that I have the right to protect, in which case rather than having the government force people to have their shots, I should, what, go out and force them myself? Or harass and do whatever it takes to keep them away from my kids? How would I even know who has and hasn't had their shots? Maybe a national registry of people who do not take their shots?

"Your rights to do what you wish with yourself and your property end where my rights to do or not to do the same with my life or property begins." So, per above, your right not to be vaccinated ends so long as there is a chance that doing so could take from me my right to protect my family. Until there is another alternative actively in play, mandatory vaccination is the only thing that ensures that my right to protect my family is respected.

Am I understanding your stance properly?

PS: Enjoying the chat, trying hard not to turn this into a shouting match, so I'm putting this in here...everything devolves so quickly, and I'm interested in hearing how a Libertarian resolves this. If you don't want to, that's cool...just too many brawls already, let's not have one. :)
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So the right to not have natural things like disease happen to you trumps my right to not be coerced to have things injected into my body. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
 
Henrin said:
So the right to not have natural things like disease happen to you trumps my right to not be coerced to have things injected into my body. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
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Hold on, though, we have a proven ability to all but eliminate these diseases entirely through vaccination. This is evident in the fact that these diseases have all but disappeared, except in recent years, since the advent of this conspiracy nonsense, driven by a doctor who later admitted to being a fraud, has caused folks to decline. Your refusal to participate in that shouldn't trump my right to be protected from it when it is possible to do so. That doesn't make any sense to me. Why are your rights more important than mine?
 
OlNate said:
Hold on, though, we have a proven ability to all but eliminate these diseases entirely through vaccination. This is evident in the fact that these diseases have all but disappeared, except in recent years, since the advent of this conspiracy nonsense, driven by a doctor who later admitted to being a fraud, has caused folks to decline. Your refusal to participate in that shouldn't trump my right to be protected from it when it is possible to do so. That doesn't make any sense to me. Why are your rights more important than mine?
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Because it's my body your action is aggressing upon.
 
ModerateGOP said:
A lot of the people who have autistic children believe that vaccines are the cause of their child's autism. They can't believe that their perfect baby could have gotten autism through the unlucky luck of the draw. So they must, they have to blame it on outside factors. This despite any evidence to the claim.
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Ya know what bothers me a lot of that position?

It basically is saying that these parents would prefer to risk their child being crippled by potentially fatal diseases rather than have to deal with their child being autistic.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Ya know what bothers me a lot of that position?

It basically is saying that these parents would prefer to risk their child being crippled by potentially fatal diseases rather than have to deal with their child being autistic.
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In my experience there is no talking these people out of it either. They believe what they want to believe.
 
Henrin said:
Because it's my body your action is aggressing upon.
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But it's my body that's at risk because of your negligence (theoretically...I've had my shots...though I can't be sure that those shots work for me, unless I know I've been exposed to the illness and didn't catch it, I guess, so perhaps not theoretical). Same question as before...
 
ModerateGOP said:
A lot of the people who have autistic children believe that vaccines are the cause of their child's autism. They can't believe that their perfect baby could have gotten autism through the unlucky luck of the draw. So they must, they have to blame it on outside factors. This despite any evidence to the claim.
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I think it’s understandable though. One always wants a reason for something, right? Random probability is not satisfying. I’m not necessarily saying it’s logical, but emotionally it is understandable. People will reach out for anything for an explanation, it gives us something to focus on or be angry at. The mind always seeks out these connections and when there isn’t a real one, it will invent it. So not logical, but understandable.
 
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