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Will we need socialism in the era of automation?

Masterhawk

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Will we need socialism after numerous jobs get replaced by robots? When I say socialism, I don't just mean "socialism" by Bernie Sanders or Sweden, that's just a welfare state. What I mean is the public seizure of property and the means of production.

Here's a video to help understand automation and why new jobs created won't replace all of the old ones:


If we leave the free market to its own devices, then during automation, middle class individuals will be out of a job and the rich will be making the profit.

What should be our future economic system once machines take over our jobs?
 
” Masterhawk ” said:
Will we need socialism after numerous jobs get replaced by robots?
If we populate to a level where in the impact of said mechanization reduces the resources to the point where we must severely ration and we choose common ownership as an alternative to the war the market would then demand.
If we leave the free market to its own devices, then during automation, middle class individuals will be out of a job and the rich will be making the profit.
No, there are still many human facing job possibilities wherein people can work they just look very different. If left to the market: working hours will decrease, living standard raise, entertainment and recreation dominate. Automation allows for not only more productivity but higher decentralization. This decentralization, allows for more competitors to emerge which restricts and limits “the rich” from retaining all the resources though the markets reevaluation of the value of current assets. Right now if I want to start a retail store or a factory, you must raise huge amount of capital; however, in an automated future these things can be produced for fractions of the current costs(look at the affect since the advent of VOIP, ALIBABA, E-sales) this has the effect of redefining value of "the rich" portfolio as value is relative: supply and demand.

Keep in mind the current inequality trends are propped up by a gigantic banking and insurance resource bubble which values a “small farmers credit union” as more than the tangible farms there-in. This cannot last and the market will make those adjustments as conditions change. The bigger question to me is can the market equalize before food prices correct as oil and energy costs raise(food prices raise in compound). If not the destruction by such devastation may be enough to justify action by governments to “acquire property” in which case you will not see the revolution as such technology is reserved and rationed for the common good.
 
Will we need socialism after numerous jobs get replaced by robots? When I say socialism, I don't just mean "socialism" by Bernie Sanders or Sweden, that's just a welfare state. What I mean is the public seizure of property and the means of production.

Here's a video to help understand automation and why new jobs created won't replace all of the old ones:


If we leave the free market to its own devices, then during automation, middle class individuals will be out of a job and the rich will be making the profit.

What should be our future economic system once machines take over our jobs?


I think we should study plant Vulcan for clues.

I am not kidding.
 
Will we need socialism after numerous jobs get replaced by robots? When I say socialism, I don't just mean "socialism" by Bernie Sanders or Sweden, that's just a welfare state. What I mean is the public seizure of property and the means of production.

Here's a video to help understand automation and why new jobs created won't replace all of the old ones:


If we leave the free market to its own devices, then during automation, middle class individuals will be out of a job and the rich will be making the profit.

What should be our future economic system once machines take over our jobs?


This has already happened. Automation has already eliminated large numbers of jobs in manufacturing. The result is that labor participation in the economy is at an all time low. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have up until recently paid any attention to this problem or done anything to alleviate the plight that working class citizens face. The socialists have been no freaking help at all. As a result these citizens voted to elect Trump, the only person in a generation who has given some attention to their problem and who is now working diligently, despited fierce opposition from government elites, to bring some relief to the working class.

So if you give a care about people who have lost their jobs to automation then support Trump.
 
Will we need socialism after numerous jobs get replaced by robots? When I say socialism, I don't just mean "socialism" by Bernie Sanders or Sweden, that's just a welfare state. What I mean is the public seizure of property and the means of production.



If we leave the free market to its own devices, then during automation, middle class individuals will be out of a job and the rich will be making the profit.

What should be our future economic system once machines take over our jobs?
And here is an example of how long that argument has been around.
extinct-vintage-jobs-5-1.jpg
extinct-vintage-jobs-4-2.jpg
extinct-vintage-jobs-14-1.jpg
 
Will we need socialism after numerous jobs get replaced by robots? When I say socialism, I don't just mean "socialism" by Bernie Sanders or Sweden, that's just a welfare state. What I mean is the public seizure of property and the means of production.

Here's a video to help understand automation and why new jobs created won't replace all of the old ones:


If we leave the free market to its own devices, then during automation, middle class individuals will be out of a job and the rich will be making the profit.

What should be our future economic system once machines take over our jobs?


1) Encourage employee owned businesses, and try to get a model that will allow for the continuation of the business when the original employees start to retire.
2) Shift the tax burden from the middle class to the upper class so government has the resources to operate.
3) Increase the miniumn wage , so 30 hours will be a living wage, and reduce hours for everyone.
4) Start business that rely on making hand made high quality items, rather than mass produced crap.
5) Provide free birth control to everyone, to reduce population, and provide monetary incentives to have smaller families. However, makes sure that birth control is not FORCED on anyone, but rather education, free birth control, and monetary incentives to have small families provide motivation to reduce the population.
 
1) Encourage employee owned businesses, and try to get a model that will allow for the continuation of the business when the original employees start to retire.

Everything else you propose creates a disincentive for entrepreneurship.

2) Shift the tax burden from the middle class to the upper class so government has the resources to operate.

Doesn't the burden have to be on the middle class before it can be shifted off of them?
Do you think the source of the funds has any effect on the ability of a government to operate?

3) Increase the miniumn wage , so 30 hours will be a living wage, and reduce hours for everyone.

More incentives to automate.

4) Start business that rely on making hand made high quality items, rather than mass produced crap.

Handmade crap tends to be lower quality than machine made to spec.

5) Provide free birth control to everyone, to reduce population, and provide monetary incentives to have smaller families. However, makes sure that birth control is not FORCED on anyone, but rather education, free birth control, and monetary incentives to have small families provide motivation to reduce the population.

The bold is the only sensible thing in your post.
 
Everything else you propose creates a disincentive for entrepreneurship.



Doesn't the burden have to be on the middle class before it can be shifted off of them?
Do you think the source of the funds has any effect on the ability of a government to operate?



More incentives to automate.



Handmade crap tends to be lower quality than machine made to spec.



The bold is the only sensible thing in your post.

Well, considering you are a libertarian that is to be expected that you reject those proposals out of hand. However, I dont' see 'free market economy' or 'small government' being able to cope with that challenge.

Do you have any suggestion besides supply side economics, and deregulation, which causes much more problems than it solves?
 
Will we need socialism after numerous jobs get replaced by robots? When I say socialism, I don't just mean "socialism" by Bernie Sanders or Sweden, that's just a welfare state. What I mean is the public seizure of property and the means of production.

Here's a video to help understand automation and why new jobs created won't replace all of the old ones:


If we leave the free market to its own devices, then during automation, middle class individuals will be out of a job and the rich will be making the profit.

What should be our future economic system once machines take over our jobs?


I don't think pure socialism is required, and I don't think it's a good direction to go in.

Having said that, we are either going to need to drastically reduce the population (which makes sense for other reasons as well) of create a sort of safety net state by giving everyone who can't find employment a minimum income/benefit package that allows survival. This isn't going to happen in the U.S. of Oligarch Inc.

It's way too easy to imagine very dystopian directions this could go in that would make Hunger Games look like a pleasant dream.
 
Well, considering you are a libertarian that is to be expected that you reject those proposals out of hand. However, I dont' see 'free market economy' or 'small government' being able to cope with that challenge.

Do you have any suggestion besides supply side economics, and deregulation, which causes much more problems than it solves?

I didn't reject them out of hand, but with reason. You can't create a disincentive and expect people to engage in an activity more. I said nothing about supply side economics, or deregulation.

Just because I can point out whats wrong with your suggestions, doesn't mean I have a solution to offer. In economics there are no solutions, there are simply costs and benefits to market interference and I rightly regard anyone who suggests otherwise, anyone who claims to have a solution or magic bullet that always works, as either a fool or a liar with an agenda.

There are costs to your ideas, the degree to which you deny them (or don't address them) is the degree to which you're dishonest.
 
Do you have any suggestion besides supply side economics, and deregulation…?
Would a universal guaranteed income in exchange for lower taxes and regulation count?
 
Would a universal guaranteed income in exchange for lower taxes and regulation count?

Yes.. however, that is non-libertarian, and there is a little thing known as 'input, output'. If you are going to have lower taxes, where will the money for the guaranteed income come from. I will assume 'lower regulation'. What kind of regulations will be eliminated?? The environmental regulation? The safety regulations?? The anti-monopoly regulations?? The 'You must show a drug actually works before you market it and is not dangerous' regulation? What specific regulations should be removed?
 
Will we need socialism after numerous jobs get replaced by robots? When I say socialism, I don't just mean "socialism" by Bernie Sanders or Sweden, that's just a welfare state. What I mean is the public seizure of property and the means of production.

Here's a video to help understand automation and why new jobs created won't replace all of the old ones:


If we leave the free market to its own devices, then during automation, middle class individuals will be out of a job and the rich will be making the profit.

What should be our future economic system once machines take over our jobs?


I depends on one's definition of socialism. If socialism is taking care of those who have no jobs available to be worked, probably so. Automation, robotics, advanced technology is all leading very quickly to doing away with lots and lots of jobs. You'll have a few humans who run programs, designed the programs and let technology, robotics etc. produce the end goods with little to no human involvement.

Are we headed towards a world where 90% of the human population is excess baggage? Then what is done with those humans not needed anymore? Sounds like something out of science fiction doesn't it?
 
Yes.. however, that is non-libertarian, and there is a little thing known as 'input, output'. If you are going to have lower taxes, where will the money for the guaranteed income come from. I will assume 'lower regulation'. What kind of regulations will be eliminated?? The environmental regulation? The safety regulations?? The anti-monopoly regulations?? The 'You must show a drug actually works before you market it and is not dangerous' regulation? What specific regulations should be removed?
I brought it up because it’s a “non-libertarian” idea libertarians are open too as it is a minimal government involvement solution.A starting point to compromise and practical policies.

To expand:
That is easy. The theory goes the money comes from cuts in government services by giving enough income to people to buy the appropriate alternatives in the free market. And yes that only works in certain areas.

In areas like welfare, education, rehabilitation programs, seniors programs etc, lots of which is paid for by lottery tax which is actually disguised in the books, it is financially prudent move to just pay cash in some areas of social policy. Government workers are not cheap nor cost effective. In other areas like healthcare & criminal justice probably not a good idea as there exists conflicts between self interest and the common interest which could create more blowback than the savings is worth.

The theory goes most regulation would be scrapped and replaced with a more refined and accessible “civil law system”. If civil cases didn't take 30 years to settle, 1 1/2 years to start and carry obscene costs: their worth would be more recognized, as they remain the only proven system of regulation thus providing better regulatory service with a much smaller price tag.

Personally, I see no problem with the elimination of all the regulations mentioned[if money spend for civil law reform]; however, I am sure a compromised fair reduction would be the more effective and democratically acceptable solution as I am not denying these regulations do not have upsides merely that their downsides are far worse.

environmental regulation - very high cost with a very bad track record of being effective (easily played; awful for innovation)
safety regulations - again costly for businesses with a bad record of keeping people safe especially when you remove the biggest improver as raw accountability through civil suits
anti-monopoly regulations - take 'em or leave 'em, aren’t enforceable and often have unintended negative affects (See Europe using them and creating more)
drug regulations - I would bet more people have died over the lost of remote options and drugs lost in research dollars than have been saved by the good catches, so most definitely - yesterday.

23andMe perfect example of what drug regulation gets you. Sharing a key health saving technology in its infancy with the American public vastly increasing feedback and data key to the future of medicine - no sir, people might get confused :roll:

Are we headed towards a world where 90% of the human population is excess baggage? Then what is done with those humans not needed anymore? Sounds like something out of science fiction doesn't it?
Umm, 90% of people are excess baggage today from every perspective except personal ethics: having a family - good; culling people - bad. We manage.
 
I brought it up because it’s a “non-libertarian” idea libertarians are open too as it is a minimal government involvement solution.A starting point to compromise and practical policies.

To expand:
That is easy. The theory goes the money comes from cuts in government services by giving enough income to people to buy the appropriate alternatives in the free market. And yes that only works in certain areas.

In areas like welfare, education, rehabilitation programs, seniors programs etc, lots of which is paid for by lottery tax which is actually disguised in the books, it is financially prudent move to just pay cash in some areas of social policy. Government workers are not cheap nor cost effective. In other areas like healthcare & criminal justice probably not a good idea as there exists conflicts between self interest and the common interest which could create more blowback than the savings is worth.

The theory goes most regulation would be scrapped and replaced with a more refined and accessible “civil law system”. If civil cases didn't take 30 years to settle, 1 1/2 years to start and carry obscene costs: their worth would be more recognized, as they remain the only proven system of regulation thus providing better regulatory service with a much smaller price tag.

Personally, I see no problem with the elimination of all the regulations mentioned[if money spend for civil law reform]; however, I am sure a compromised fair reduction would be the more effective and democratically acceptable solution as I am not denying these regulations do not have upsides merely that their downsides are far worse.

environmental regulation - very high cost with a very bad track record of being effective (easily played; awful for innovation)
safety regulations - again costly for businesses with a bad record of keeping people safe especially when you remove the biggest improver as raw accountability through civil suits
anti-monopoly regulations - take 'em or leave 'em, aren’t enforceable and often have unintended negative affects (See Europe using them and creating more)
drug regulations - I would bet more people have died over the lost of remote options and drugs lost in research dollars than have been saved by the good catches, so most definitely - yesterday.

23andMe perfect example of what drug regulation gets you. Sharing a key health saving technology in its infancy with the American public vastly increasing feedback and data key to the future of medicine - no sir, people might get confused :roll:


Umm, 90% of people are excess baggage today from every perspective except personal ethics: having a family - good; culling people - bad. We manage.

Well, some of those claims are provable to be false. For example, the whole 'environmental claim' to be ineffective.

For example, the andirondaks in NYS are recovering from the acid rain.

Many various rivers are 10 times cleaner than they were in the 1970's

And the semi-obligatory meme

nyc-then-and-now-occupy.jpg
 
Some of those claims are provable to be false. For example, the whole 'environmental claim' to be ineffective.
View attachment 67218746
I respect if you read them as false as they are highly simplified declarations on complex issues. Since we have chosen environment as our example to expand. My response to the picture is probably what you expect: who is to say it was regulation that lead to that change?

The easiest way to make an educated guess would be to look at a plethora of different countries with various levels of environmental regulation and compare how effective those policies have been in moving it from picture A to picture B; however, that presents a problem as there is no reliable unified indicators and lower economic production naturally makes for more clean environments. So economic impacts are actually apart of the policy further skewing any possible correlation as those impacts lesson as you pass certain thresholds of regulation. So instead of having that debate perhaps I can offer some leeway.

Overall, I would guess that if we compare we will come to two different conclusion on the main contributor from the same data. The truth is that since the data is mixed, conclusions are mixed which makes clear that there is more then one major factor involved and environmental regulation do in the least not harm environmental outcomes. I would even say give them a slight bump if but to settle the argument that they are always bad. Keeping in mind, I do not count large bumps in specific areas(eg. CO2 Emissions) only overall combined trends to avoid targeting error.

The bigger question is were these improvements cost effective? Could those resources spent have done more if placed elsewhere? One thing for sure on that data is that there are thresholds and a small reduction in environmental regulation does worsen environmental outcomes and does not give any significant economic payback. Moving from higher to medium levels though certainly seems to produce economic payback and drastic changes has not really been tested in the comparable data-sets. One very clear thing is that higher economic activity has without fail produced worse environmental outcomes. In est, killing economies is one way to improve environmental outcomes on that I defer.

So, with all that preface, my argument is in the form of two questions:

What is an example of an environmental issue which could be solved better by regulation than by civil lawsuits by affected parties? Keeping in mind that costs of regulation are scale factors higher than civil lawsuits.

And since the link between economic growth and environmental impact is so strong - do you agree that is a strong possibility that a major factor in why we are seeing improvements to the environment through increasing regulation is it is reducing the speed and scale of economic growth?
 
I respect if you read them as false as they are highly simplified declarations on complex issues. Since we have chosen environment as our example to expand. My response to the picture is probably what you expect: who is to say it was regulation that lead to that change?

The easiest way to make an educated guess would be to look at a plethora of different countries with various levels of environmental regulation and compare how effective those policies have been in moving it from picture A to picture B; however, that presents a problem as there is no reliable unified indicators and lower economic production naturally makes for more clean environments. So economic impacts are actually apart of the policy further skewing any possible correlation as those impacts lesson as you pass certain thresholds of regulation. So instead of having that debate perhaps I can offer some leeway.

Overall, I would guess that if we compare we will come to two different conclusion on the main contributor from the same data. The truth is that since the data is mixed, conclusions are mixed which makes clear that there is more then one major factor involved and environmental regulation do in the least not harm environmental outcomes. I would even say give them a slight bump if but to settle the argument that they are always bad. Keeping in mind, I do not count large bumps in specific areas(eg. CO2 Emissions) only overall combined trends to avoid targeting error.

The bigger question is were these improvements cost effective? Could those resources spent have done more if placed elsewhere? One thing for sure on that data is that there are thresholds and a small reduction in environmental regulation does worsen environmental outcomes and does not give any significant economic payback. Moving from higher to medium levels though certainly seems to produce economic payback and drastic changes has not really been tested in the comparable data-sets. One very clear thing is that higher economic activity has without fail produced worse environmental outcomes. In est, killing economies is one way to improve environmental outcomes on that I defer.

So, with all that preface, my argument is in the form of two questions:

What is an example of an environmental issue which could be solved better by regulation than by civil lawsuits by affected parties? Keeping in mind that costs of regulation are scale factors higher than civil lawsuits.

And since the link between economic growth and environmental impact is so strong - do you agree that is a strong possibility that a major factor in why we are seeing improvements to the environment through increasing regulation is it is reducing the speed and scale of economic growth?

Well, let me put it this way. Having people in a healthy environment is more important than a high rate of economic growth.

As for the benefits of environmental laws.. I lived through the 70's.. and have seen the difference in the environment that poor regulation vs good regulation has. I saw the effects first hand.
 
If we leave the free market to its own devices, then during automation, middle class individuals will be out of a job and the rich will be making the profit.

What should be our future economic system once machines take over our jobs?


We're already there, and don't be so silly, socialism is for Wall Street and the donor class.
 
What should be our future economic system once machines take over our jobs?

you are already living in totalitarian system with mass spying and repression, this is your future:

 
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