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Leaked NASA paper shows the 'impossible' EM Drive really does work

PoS

PoS

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Leaked NASA paper shows the 'impossible' EM Drive really does work - ScienceAlert

'Impossible' Space Engine Might Actually Work, Study Suggests

The EM Drive has made headlines over the past year, because it offers the incredible possibility of a fuel-free propulsion system that could potentially get us to Mars in just 70 days. But there's one major problem: according to the current laws of physics, it shouldn't work.

The issue is the fact that the EM Drive defies Newton's third law, which states that everything must have an equal and opposite reaction. So, according to Newton and our current understanding of the world around us, for a system to produce propulsion, it has to push something out the other way (in space, that's usually combusted rocket fuel).

But the EM Drive works without any fuel or propellants at all. It works by simply bouncing microwave photons back and forth inside a cone-shaped closed metal cavity. That motion causes the 'pointy end' of the EM Drive to generate thrust, and propel the drive in the opposite direction.

Despite years of testing and debate, the drive remains controversial. The bottom line is that, on paper, it shouldn't work, according to the laws of physics. And yet, in test after test, the EM Drive just keeps on working.
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Interesting. I'm optimistic, but until they actually create a working prototype, I am not holding my breath.
 
PoS said:
Leaked NASA paper shows the 'impossible' EM Drive really does work - ScienceAlert

'Impossible' Space Engine Might Actually Work, Study Suggests



Interesting. I'm optimistic, but until they actually create a working prototype, I am not holding my breath.
Click to expand...

Probably works off of some obscure under developed quantum principle working at a macro level. I am not surprised because a laser or other em emitter can push a laser or em sail, why couldn't the laser or em emitter push itself? We don't really know the mechanics of how light is actually emitted from a light bulb or fire or a laser. We just known its given off. What's the process? Is the light wave/particle a piece of the atom giving it off? Or something else entirely? If so where does that EM particle/wave come from?
 
PirateMk1 said:
Probably works off of some obscure under developed quantum principle working at a macro level. I am not surprised because a laser or other em emitter can push a laser or em sail, why couldn't the laser or em emitter push itself? We don't really know the mechanics of how light is actually emitted from a light bulb or fire or a laser. We just known its given off. What's the process? Is the light wave/particle a piece of the atom giving it off? Or something else entirely? If so where does that EM particle/wave come from?
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I get my EM particles/waves at Walmart.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Probably works off of some obscure under developed quantum principle working at a macro level. I am not surprised because a laser or other em emitter can push a laser or em sail, why couldn't the laser or em emitter push itself? We don't really know the mechanics of how light is actually emitted from a light bulb or fire or a laser. We just known its given off. What's the process? Is the light wave/particle a piece of the atom giving it off? Or something else entirely? If so where does that EM particle/wave come from?
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Visible light can exert a form of energy called radiation pressure, but it is so slight that you would need massive amounts of energy for it to be useful in any way. The EM drive uses microwaves to just bounce it within the drive shaft itself, thereby needing no additional fuel after the initial thrust.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Really? Are they cheap?
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Yeah but they are made in China so not reliable in quality. And then their are the defective returns that are put right back on the shelf.
 
They really just need to launch one. They could spend a decade trying to find every possible avenue for the apparent microscopic levels of thrust. Just built one, send it to high orbit, see if you can make it fly off into space. If it does work, it's worth finding out quickly so we can start integrating the technology into interplanetary operations.
 
Deuce said:
They really just need to launch one. They could spend a decade trying to find every possible avenue for the apparent microscopic levels of thrust. Just built one, send it to high orbit, see if you can make it fly off into space. If it does work, it's worth finding out quickly so we can start integrating the technology into interplanetary operations.
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It will cost millions just to get something in orbit, and it would be even worse if it doesnt work when it gets up there. They need to build a working prototype on earth before they bring it up to LEO.
 
This sounds a heck of a lot like you would expect to be reverse engineered from.... Well, who knows what..

Further research soon..
 
PoS said:
It will cost millions just to get something in orbit, and it would be even worse if it doesnt work when it gets up there. They need to build a working prototype on earth before they bring it up to LEO.
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That's the problem, though: with such small amounts of thrust it's hard to tell if it's really a working prototype or if there's some kind of measuring error somewhere. Sure, a probe costs millions, but I expect a decade of testing and retesting and measuring and remeasuring is also expensive.

Orly? said:
This sounds a heck of a lot like you would expect to be reverse engineered from.... Well, who knows what..

Further research soon..
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It's microwaves in a metal cone.
 
Kal'Stang said:
For those that are more understanding of the technical aspect of this here is a study that was done to test this EM drive. Note: It's long and extremely technical. Unless you're versed in the types of mechanics of the types of studies involved here GL understanding all of it.

Measurement of Impulsive Thrust from a Closed Radio-Frequency Cavity in Vacuum
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WOW!!!!!!

To explain, 1.2 mN/kW means that the power of the 3 kW heater I have next to me would create a thrust of about the weight of a playing card.

That does not sound much. But, as I just tried to explain to my wife (and failed), this is much higher than the tiny thrust that could be measured so it must be real and it totally breaks the laws of motion as of Newton.

The comparison between steam engines of 1810 where the efficency was so low as to be very tricky to measure but they still revolutionised British mining industries comes to mind. If the technology progresses in the same way you should expect to see this drive replace jet engines in 40 years and be used to build very good drives for space ships in the next 10. Possibly reaching 10% of light speed with small probes to look at close stars, 40 year missions to get there, in a similar way to the voyager probes within 60 years.

100 years time star drive for us humans to cross the gulf of space.

Technology has been advancing at an ever increasing pace.....
 
PoS said:
Leaked NASA paper shows the 'impossible' EM Drive really does work - ScienceAlert

'Impossible' Space Engine Might Actually Work, Study Suggests



Interesting. I'm optimistic, but until they actually create a working prototype, I am not holding my breath.
Click to expand...

I don't know... Microwaves ARE material, like splitting atoms, and when pumped enough to create enough pressure, and given an escape route - causing propulsion, it might work. Most all mechanized transportation happens through controlled explosions: if you pumped enough waves into a locked, sealed kitchen microwave to the point that the pressure built up enough, would the oven explode? Who would have thought that a splitting atom could do the same thing?

Star Trek here we came.
 
jet57 said:
I don't know... Microwaves ARE material, like splitting atoms, and when pumped enough to create enough pressure, and given an escape route - causing propulsion, it might work. Most all mechanized transportation happens through controlled explosions: if you pumped enough waves into a locked, sealed kitchen microwave to the point that the pressure built up enough, would the oven explode? Who would have thought that a splitting atom could do the same thing?

Star Trek here we came.
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The thing with this drive is that there isn't an escape route. With nothing being propelled out the back, there shouldn't be any forward thrust. Says Newton, anyway.
 
Tim the plumber said:
WOW!!!!!!

To explain, 1.2 mN/kW means that the power of the 3 kW heater I have next to me would create a thrust of about the weight of a playing card.

That does not sound much. But, as I just tried to explain to my wife (and failed), this is much higher than the tiny thrust that could be measured so it must be real and it totally breaks the laws of motion as of Newton.

The comparison between steam engines of 1810 where the efficency was so low as to be very tricky to measure but they still revolutionised British mining industries comes to mind. If the technology progresses in the same way you should expect to see this drive replace jet engines in 40 years and be used to build very good drives for space ships in the next 10. Possibly reaching 10% of light speed with small probes to look at close stars, 40 year missions to get there, in a similar way to the voyager probes within 60 years.

100 years time star drive for us humans to cross the gulf of space.

Technology has been advancing at an ever increasing pace.....
Click to expand...

Space travel, this would definitely be a game changer.

The thrust value, however, is too low to be much use in a terrestrial function. Modern 737 engines can produce up to 300 kN between the two of them. So, about 250 MW of power generation to equal the thrust of an airliner. w

250MW power plants are much larger and heavier than the CFM56 engines on that 737. It wont fly.

So, these EmDrives would have to be orders of magnitude more efficient to make a direct replacement for combustion engines, or we need to miniaturize power generation by a few orders of magnitude. Gravity and atmospheric drag are a bastard.

But in space, there's no drag and you can thrust for weeks at a time. (or, hell, years at a time)

...if it works. If it really is pushing against some quantum particle magic, space travel just became a thing. I maintain skepticism, but here's hopin'!
 
Deuce said:
Space travel, this would definitely be a game changer.

The thrust value, however, is too low to be much use in a terrestrial function. Modern 737 engines can produce up to 300 kN between the two of them. So, about 250 MW of power generation to equal the thrust of an airliner. w

250MW power plants are much larger and heavier than the CFM56 engines on that 737. It wont fly.

So, these EmDrives would have to be orders of magnitude more efficient to make a direct replacement for combustion engines, or we need to miniaturize power generation by a few orders of magnitude. Gravity and atmospheric drag are a bastard.

But in space, there's no drag and you can thrust for weeks at a time. (or, hell, years at a time)

...if it works. If it really is pushing against some quantum particle magic, space travel just became a thing. I maintain skepticism, but here's hopin'!
Click to expand...

Yes, but i hope the efficency and effectiveness will increase a lot. Then it might just be usable down here.
 
Deuce said:
Space travel, this would definitely be a game changer.

The thrust value, however, is too low to be much use in a terrestrial function. Modern 737 engines can produce up to 300 kN between the two of them. So, about 250 MW of power generation to equal the thrust of an airliner. w

250MW power plants are much larger and heavier than the CFM56 engines on that 737. It wont fly.

So, these EmDrives would have to be orders of magnitude more efficient to make a direct replacement for combustion engines, or we need to miniaturize power generation by a few orders of magnitude. Gravity and atmospheric drag are a bastard.

But in space, there's no drag and you can thrust for weeks at a time. (or, hell, years at a time)

...if it works. If it really is pushing against some quantum particle magic, space travel just became a thing. I maintain skepticism, but here's hopin'!
Click to expand...

Assuming they get it to work, it would still be outclassed by existing chemical rockets (NERVA would beat them all, but thats another story). The one advantage it would have is that it consumes almost no fuel, but with in-situ refueling technology the disadvantage of the other drives would be minimized. In effect it would be similar to the ion drives currently in use.

(Im currently knee deep in space research for a book, so this news came at the right time...)
 
PoS said:
Assuming they get it to work, it would still be outclassed by existing chemical rockets (NERVA would beat them all, but thats another story). The one advantage it would have is that it consumes almost no fuel, but with in-situ refueling technology the disadvantage of the other drives would be minimized. In effect it would be similar to the ion drives currently in use.

(Im currently knee deep in space research for a book, so this news came at the right time...)
Click to expand...

I am supposed to be knee deep in reaserching info for a game. If your stuff has need of the local space region and the known planets around the local stars then we might be able to work together.
 
PoS said:
Assuming they get it to work, it would still be outclassed by existing chemical rockets (NERVA would beat them all, but thats another story). The one advantage it would have is that it consumes almost no fuel, but with in-situ refueling technology the disadvantage of the other drives would be minimized. In effect it would be similar to the ion drives currently in use.

(Im currently knee deep in space research for a book, so this news came at the right time...)
Click to expand...

Yeah, actually I was just doing some napkin math and realizing that we're talking like 10-20 m/s acceleration per day at the current apparent thrust levels and that doesn't become competitive with conventional rockets until your mission time ends up in the range of several years.
 
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