Vaccines and Autism.[W:390]

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Dittohead not! said:

So, just under 2,500 serious events out of hundreds of millions.

Shall we compare that ratio to that of serious effects of the diseases that the vaccinations prevent?

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Why are the hundreds of millions of lives more important than the 2,500?
This is something forced on parents... not something naturally occurring...

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

mak2 said:

I am really not clear on why people just want to believe vaccines cause such a multitude of problems and seem to disregard the good. Just thinking rationally about it for a few minutes. Millions are given vaccines every year, millions avoid illness every year from these immunizations. There are some people who get sick after having some sort of vaccination, but it is very difficult to make the causal connection. Childhood immunizations are about the time autism is usually diagnosed so there is a natural tendency to connect them. In reality vaccines might have the largest study group in the world with an very small instance of real side effects.

A few years ago a Professor at a University I teach at was discussing side effects of medications in a class. She showed them a utube of a student that, after having a flu shot, could only talk when running backwards or something like that. In my class the next day students pulled up the vid and showed me the "evidence." I explained that this was the first I had ever heard of this side effect of a vaccine. I suppose it was possible and I said so. But I used it as a teachable moment about how to think about studies and "evidence" they will be presented with during their career. It turned out to be an outright hoax, and I hope at least a few of my students remember that.

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It is really great for those helped but they are also finding out stuff all the time...

Is narcolepsy linked to an H1N1 vaccine? | Toronto Star

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Think about what this article says.

"with researchers working on a theory that some cases may be linked to the H1N1 virus, others perhaps to an H1N1 vaccine.

Bodhisattva said:

It is really great for those helped but they are also finding out stuff all the time..."

Is narcolepsy linked to an H1N1 vaccine? | Toronto Star

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Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Ben K. said:

Even at safe limits it accumulates in tissue.

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Accumulation of a heavy metal - a known neurotoxin - in a neonate - gives you no reason to pause?

Ben K. said:

That's why the CDC recommendations for parenteral aluminium cite "chronic feeding" as the cause for concern, not acute administration.

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First parenteral nutrition is not "feeding". It is IV administration of nutrition. That is the difference between ingestion and injection.

1. There are NO studies on the elimination rates of aluminum in newborns.
2. The dosing given on day 1 of life is 0.25 - 0.5 mg of aluminum
***or to put it another way***
A 5 pound infant weighs 5 / 2.2 = 2.27 KG. x 5mcg = 11.36 mcg/d max dose. Hep B vaccine from Merck 0.5mg of Al. or 500/11.36 = a 44 day supply in a single dose on the first day of life.

How many days do you consider chronic, and what drug/compound do you know of that is SAFER to give an entire month's supply on a single day instead over an extended period of time? And if it's not going to get eliminated from the body, it IS going to accumulate.

Recombivax (Hepatitis B Vaccine (Recombinant)) Drug Information: Description, User Reviews, Drug Side Effects, Interactions - Prescribing Information at RxList

Ben K. said:

Is there a reason you cut this out of your OP?

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1. It is odd that you are debating the missing bolded areas and have total disregard to the " accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity".
2. To avoid confusion. Most think that means ingestion, and do not understand the math involved as I outlined above. The above explains the "chronic" portion. A 1 day old infant does not have optimal kidney function and is probably at a greater risk of getting neuro toxicity by receiving over a months supply of Al in a single bolus. Or do you disagree?
3. The impaired renal function of a newborn is well documented and the part left out was to avoid confusion because the left in part was the needed bit of information.

To stop any confusion such as what you brought up... read the above. New borns do not have fully funcional kidneys.

Ben K. said:

Why would I offer my child to do something unnecessary?

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1. If it's unnecessary then why are you supporting the administration of the vaccine? AND why do you seem concerned if there is nothing to be concerned with?
2. Two Hep B vaccines currently exist. Merck 0.5 mg Al content. Baxter (I think) 0.25 mg Al content. Each are given on the first day of life to EVERY new born even premies WITH IMPAIRED KIDNEY FUNCTION. have people volunteer to have the larger Al dosed vaccine and track the 2 groups to autism.

Again which vaccine would you sign you child up for? I answered you question, will you answer mine?


EDIT: IMPARED RENAL FUNCTION FOR INFANTS...

"Several aspects of renal function varyconsiderably during the 1st year of life and differ markedly from the equivalent values in the adult. Glomerular filtration rate (GFR) increases little, prior to the time an infant reaches a conceptional age of 34 weeks, the point in renal development from which the absolute GFR (ml/min) increases gradually to mature values when linear growth is completed during adolescence. GFR corrected for body size is not comparable with adult normal values until after 12 months of age;" http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00849229

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

brothern said:

The vaccine has been given to hundreds of millions of children since the 80s, with no discernible side effect. Not to mention that antacids are just large doses of aluminum hydroxide. Whereas I'd just be settling an upset stomach, this vaccine prevents the spread of an incredibly infectious and harmful disease.

Besides - you're probably killing your kid and yourself faster than any vaccine could: smoking, eating fatty foods, not exercising, breathing (air pollution), drinking and having a desk job.

tl;dr - Chill out.

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What is not chill about questioning something...?

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

mak2 said:

Think about what this article says.

"with researchers working on a theory that some cases may be linked to the H1N1 virus, others perhaps to an H1N1 vaccine.

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It also says:

Mignot now believes the combination may have created a perfect, and unpredictable, storm — combining the H1N1 virus, children with a genetic predisposition to narcolepsy, and a vaccine containing a potent adjuvant that may have made those children all the more susceptible.

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

There is absolutely no evidence attached to that statement. I know, I have kids and thought about this kind of stuff when they were little. It is a tough decision anytime you deal with your childs health. But I came to the conclusion it was far better for them to get vaccines than not to.

Bodhisattva said:

It also says:

Mignot now believes the combination may have created a perfect, and unpredictable, storm — combining the H1N1 virus, children with a genetic predisposition to narcolepsy, and a vaccine containing a potent adjuvant that may have made those children all the more susceptible.

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Re: Vaccines and Autism.

mak2 said:

There is absolutely no evidence attached to that statement. I know, I have kids and thought about this kind of stuff when they were little. It is a tough decision anytime you deal with your childs health. But I came to the conclusion it was far better for them to get vaccines than not to.

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If you had the option to give you child a vaccine that had Aluminum 0.5 mg or 0.25 mg which would you choose and why?

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Yes, I had my kids given all the recommended vaccinations because the undisputed evidence they do good far, far out weighs any harm which is greatly disputed.

Missed AB said:

If you had the option to give you child a vaccine that had Aluminum 0.5 mg or 0.25 mg which would you choose and why?

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Re: Vaccines and Autism.

mak2 said:

There is absolutely no evidence attached to that statement. I know, I have kids and thought about this kind of stuff when they were little. It is a tough decision anytime you deal with your childs health. But I came to the conclusion it was far better for them to get vaccines than not to.

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I have kids and thought the same as you until my daughter developed an adverse reaction and almost died due to complications...

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

was it an allergic reaction to the vaccine?

Bodhisattva said:

I have kids and thought the same as you until my daughter developed an adverse reaction and almost died due to complications...

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Re: Vaccines and Autism.

mak2 said:

was it an allergic reaction to the vaccine?

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She developed an abscess in her lymph glands that grew into her trachea inhibiting breathing and nursing. She had to have an infant throat specialist flown in and to make matters worse she almost did not come out of anaesthesia. She had the first round of vaccines and that was the second round. She is fine now and if she has any disorder it is being too intelligent and obsessed with reading way above her age level so I am not complaining... just challenging those that blindly accept the "there is nothing wrong, AT ALL, with vaccines" or the "suck it up because if some die it is better for all" crowd.

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

I am very glad all turned out well.

Bodhisattva said:

She developed an abscess in her lymph glands that grew into her trachea inhibiting breathing and nursing. She had to have an infant throat specialist flown in and to make matters worse she almost did not come out of anaesthesia. She had the first round of vaccines and that was the second round. She is fine now and if she has any disorder it is being too intelligent and obsessed with reading way above her age level so I am not complaining... just challenging those that blindly accept the "there is nothing wrong, AT ALL, with vaccines" or the "suck it up because if some die it is better for all" crowd.

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Re: Vaccines and Autism.

mak2 said:

Yes, I had my kids given all the recommended vaccinations because the undisputed evidence they do good far, far out weighs any harm which is greatly disputed.

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Maybe you thought I asked why you choose to get your children vaccinated? I didn't.

Please read the following carefully. Currently there are 2 different banded Hep B vaccines. 1 (merck) has 0.5 mg of Aluminum, the other(baxter) has 0.25 mg of aluminum. Which one will you choose to have administered to your newborn infant and why?

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Bodhisattva said:

Tell that to the families of dead or harmed children to their faces... I would love to have heard you tell me that at the hospital when my daughter was there fighting for her life. Your family would have been very happy that doctors were so close...

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I will tell you this as directly as possible. Even if vaccines cause autism (which they don't), your daughter was much more likely to be killed by the diseases that vaccines exist to protect her from than she was to be harmed by the vaccine. It's very simple math. It's the same way that, while a seat belt can hurt you, being in a crash without one is much more likely to. Wear a seat belt. Vaccinate your kids.

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Paschendale said:

I will tell you this as directly as possible. Even if vaccines cause autism (which they don't), your daughter was much more likely to be killed by the diseases that vaccines exist to protect her from than she was to be harmed by the vaccine. It's very simple math. It's the same way that, while a seat belt can hurt you, being in a crash without one is much more likely to. Wear a seat belt. Vaccinate your kids.

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My daughter almost died from the vaccine... so, no, I won't.

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

There is no valid epidemiological evidence that vaccines cause autism. None. Nada. Zip.

There is no evidence that aluminum, even in toxic amounts, causes autism.

There is no evidence that the levels of aluminum in vaccines are anywhere near harmful, let alone anywhere near toxic levels. (If it was, the levels would undoubtedly be reduced.)

Epidemiological studies dating back to 1999 have all shown that vaccines do not increase the risks of autism.

No one knows yet what causes autism. What little we know suggests genetic factors, as well as a slightly increased risk if the father is over 40.

There is abundant evidence that the benefits of vaccines dramatically outweigh the risks, not only for your own child but for others in your community. There is also no doubt that a vaccine will protect your child from damaging diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, pertussis and so on.


As a "registered medical professional," you should know full well that you can't believe everything you read on the Internets, especially when it's pushed by terrified parents, with no medical training, looking for someone to blame for their child's unfortunate condition.

While I sympathize with the difficulties you face, refusing to vaccinate your child -- and spreading this type of inaccurate anti-vaccine information -- is harmful not just to your child, to the children in your community, but anyone who actually listens to your incorrect information.

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Bodhisattva said:

My daughter almost died from the vaccine... so, no, I won't.

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And before you knew that she would have a reaction, vaccinating her was the better choice. What you should look for are other types that can be applied to her safely, perhaps? Different mixtures, specifically to address situations like yours, would be a pretty obvious direction for research to take.

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Paschendale said:

And before you knew that she would have a reaction, vaccinating her was the better choice. What you should look for are other types that can be applied to her safely, perhaps? Different mixtures, specifically to address situations like yours, would be a pretty obvious direction for research to take.

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Since the diseases are essentially wiped out, the very few that fall into our category are safe...

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

No, I understood exactly what you asked. My only concern would have been if the effectiveness was the same.

Missed AB said:

Maybe you thought I asked why you choose to get your children vaccinated? I didn't.

Please read the following carefully. Currently there are 2 different banded Hep B vaccines. 1 (merck) has 0.5 mg of Aluminum, the other(baxter) has 0.25 mg of aluminum. Which one will you choose to have administered to your newborn infant and why?

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Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Missed AB said:

Maybe you could take the time to be intellectually honest here, and acknowledge the point of that statement you are stuck on. It was a rebuttal to the absolute 100% safety of vaccines since the 1980's the other person claimed. If you wish to challenge that statement by the CDC please do so. If you wish to support the validity brothern, then please do so. And do not take my statement out of context.

I am not shouting to eliminate vaccines, nor have I throughout this thread, and I have continued to state that I will have future children vaccinated, however not following the current schedules and spread them out over more visits decline the hep B vaccine on day 1 of life.

I agree that they have done an amazing job. However I have have several concerns. My primary one is the rush to give vaccines that are not essential to a newborn ie Hep B shot. Al is a known neurotoxin and there is very little research on the actual pathways it takes in newborn infants. My other concern is the idiocracy each side seems to have... that somehow if autism IS linked to vaccines, that somehow vaccines would be deemed unsafe. DEATH is a risk associated with EVERY vaccine on the CDC website. Check the CDC yourself, it's a risk on EVERY VACCINE. So why is there so much hostility to the possibility that Autism is associated with this practice when you accept DEATH as a possible outcome?

However when the CDC puts out memos like below, it begs the question of is it better for the public, or better for me as an individual.

CDC MEMO example:
"Can a child actually get the disease from a vaccine?
Almost never.

It would be nice to simply say that vaccines don’t cause autism, but
it wouldn’t be good science. A basic principle of science is that you
can’t prove that something is not true. We all believe that if you let
go of an apple it will drop to the ground. But that belief is based on
the observation that it has always happened that way in the past.
It doesn’t prove that the next time you try it, the apple might not ly
up into the air instead"

Aren’t some of these substances toxic?
Some vaccine ingredients could be toxic . . . at much higher doses.
This concerns some parents, but the fact is that any substance – even
water – can be toxic given a large enough dose. But at a very low dose,
even a highly toxic substance can be safe.

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Well, you did make the point that vaccines are not 100% safe, so, yes, you did answer the post you quoted.

and I made mine that the risks of disease are far and away greater than the risks of the vaccination.

So, we both made our points.

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Visbek said:

There is no evidence that the levels of aluminum in vaccines are anywhere near harmful, let alone anywhere near toxic levels. (If it was, the levels would undoubtedly be reduced.)

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I will concede your point if you can actually support what you are claiming. Please state the unsafe levels of aluminum via injection. The only dosing I can find is 5 mcg/kg/d (renal impaired - and all infants are renally impaired until 12 months of age and current day 1 shot is apx 1 month's worth of IV administration at the "safe" limit).

I wonder if birth weight could be used to predict ASD since Al dosing/toxic levels is weight dependent... http://www.nursing.upenn.edu/media/...og/Attachments/3244/SFARI - pinto marting.pdf

Here's something from the crazy antivaccine group NYU NYU Langone Medical Center Causes for Al poisoning: Receive vaccinations containing aluminum

Visbek said:

No one knows yet what causes autism.

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You just know it has nothing to do with Al toxicity on the first day of life?

Visbek said:

As a "registered medical professional," you should know full well that you can't believe everything you read on the Internet...

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Except if it was written by you?

I would beg to differ with you analysis of my position. I have been researching this for a long while now. I doubt you have put many hours into autism research/reading/meetings/lectures... I have. You are the one repeating the positions of others you have read on the internet without any original thought.

Visbek said:

While I sympathize with the difficulties you face, refusing to vaccinate your child -- and spreading this type of inaccurate anti-vaccine information -- is harmful not just to your child, to the children in your community, but anyone who actually listens to your incorrect information.

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How is it harmful to the children in my community? How is it harmful to question the need for aluminum in vaccines? What is the harm in questioning the need for Hep B shot on day 1 of life? Are you aware the HUMANS are the ONLY group that receives Al in their vaccines? YOU ARE THE ONE SCARE MONGERING, AND USING EMOTIONAL FALLACIES, NOT ME.

I HAVE SITED THE CDC, FDA, and other .gov sites. CAN YOU EVEN BACK UP YOUR ORIGINAL CLAIM BY STATING THE SAFE LEVELS OF ALUMINUM FOR NEW BORNS.

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Bodhisattva said:

Why are the hundreds of millions of lives more important than the 2,500?
This is something forced on parents... not something naturally occurring...

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Why are hundreds of millions of lives more important than 2,500? Did you really ask that question?

Nothing is totally 100% safe. You have to play by the odds.

Your odds are much better with the vaccine than they are without. Compare the numbers!

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Dittohead not! said:

Why are hundreds of millions of lives more important than 2,500? Did you really ask that question?

Nothing is totally 100% safe. You have to play by the odds.

Your odds are much better with the vaccine than they are without. Compare the numbers!

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Just a thought, and don't read into it... We as a species have made it thousands of generations without vaccines. The immune system continues to evolve and adapt. The black plague wiped out countless people in Europe. Yet it did not kill everyone and subsequent events were less pandemic. The herd was thinned out, and the strong survived making the survivors posterity that much less sensitive to future breakouts. Another example of this was seen when the US Indians were given blankets that were infested with small pox. Their immunity had never seen this before and killed indians at a much higher rate than Europeans. Today we are starting to see this with HIV - that certain sects in society are actually immune to the virus and others have a much viral load threshold.

I am not stating that we need to let everyone die from viruses and bacteria without treatment or vaccines, but there may be something to think about as a species - since you are concerned with the numbers - the "good" for all by removing certain genes from the pool and concentrating others vs proliferating every gene... If you are genuine in your good of the species, and not your own personal house hold, then you need to consider purging the weak genes do you not? Could you imagine if our past generations immune systems were never purged, the common cold today would kill us all.

Yesterday's cold could have been today's bird flu - and there is something intellectually to consider about not allowing the immune system to shape itself within the species using the survived genes.

Again don't read into my writing... I'm curious on your thoughts.

FYI I got my flu shot too.

Re: Vaccines and Autism.

Missed AB said:

For the record, I am an educated registered professional working medical field (I will leave my profession blank here for obvious reasons). I have always heard the fringe anti vaccine groups and I have always put them off as being kooks and ill informed. They blame mercury for autism, when significant amounts of thimerosal have been removed for the past 10 to 15 years from all vaccines...
Then My son gets diagnosed with autism.
I start doing some research, and I read on some random website the amount of aluminum vaccines... I thought to my self, WHAT? That's got to be a typo.
Then I went to some "real" websites, and I could not believe what I was reading. 250-500 mcg (brand dependent) for the hep B shot given to every newborn before they leave the hospital... which my son got - despite being dehydrated for 2 days because my wife was not making any milk and the la-lacha nurse encouraging her to not bottle feed... (day 3 onward he was on formula).

Here's an example of a first schedule vaccination and the amount of aluminum.
HIB = 225 mcg
Pc = 125 mcg
DTap = 170 to 625 (depending on brand)
Hep B = 250 mcg
...... ..........
All constructive thoughts are welcomed.

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Thanks for the sincere well researched post; so few are.

I've gone back and forth on this issue.
Not just the toxins within the vaccines per se.. but their very purpose.
Was the infant/juvenile immune system meant to be exposed to that many diseases, even if beaten?
Is there a price for some small percent; not just with an early reaction but with an ie, auto-immune disease later in life?
Or it could be as paschendale posits; higher reporting. I don't think so.
I am Speculating here, I m not a medical professional even tho something of a science buff: Sciam etc.
It's going to take more time to figure it out.
We don't seem to have a real clue yet, unlike many other maladies.