In Kyiv, Crowd Lays Out 'Red Lines' For Zelenskiy Ahead Of Peace Talks

Rogue Valley · Dec 9, 2019

In Kyiv, Crowd Lays Out 'Red Lines' For Zelenskiy Ahead Of Peace Talks

12/8/19
KYIV -- Thousands of Ukrainians gathered in downtown Kyiv on December 8 under the banner "Red Lines For Ze" and calling for a tough stance from President Volodymyr Zelenskiy when he joins the leaders of France, Germany, and Russia for peace talks in Paris on December 9. It will be Zelenskiy's first official meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin since he took over as Ukraine's president in May on campaign pledges to seek an end to the five-year war between Ukrainian government forces and Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine that has killed more than 13,000 people since April 2014. Holding Ukrainian flags and banners reading “No compromises!” and “No surrender,” the crowd at Independence Square in the capital, the hub of unrest that eventually unseated a pro-Russian Ukrainian president five years ago, set out five "red lines" that it warned Zelenskiy not to cross in the upcoming talks. They were: territorial integrity and no federalization, no compromise on Ukraine's pro-European course, no actions to legitimize the occupation of Ukrainian territory, insistence that Russian-occupied Crimea be returned, and no end to suits filed internationally over Russia's actions in Ukraine. Zelenskiy and Putin's talks will be mediated by French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel under the so-called Normandy Format. The leaders of Russia and Ukraine last met three years ago, when Petro Poroshenko was the Ukrainian president.

Addressing the protesters in Kyiv on December 8, Poroshenko said that if peace means “a surrender of Ukrainian interests, it is not peace but capitulation.” He gave tips to Zelenskiy ahead of the Paris meeting, saying: "Don't believe Putin" and "Don't be afraid of Putin." "We are in a difficult situation, but we're flying to Paris with a very strong position," Zelenskiy's spokeswoman, Julia Mendel, wrote on Facebook, saying Kyiv is enjoying support from Germany, France, the United States, and Britain, as well as "the Ukrainian people who want the end of the war." Yet "the war in Donbas will not end on December 10," Mendel added. Moscow has maintained it is not a party to the ongoing eastern Ukrainian war despite considerable evidence to the contrary, including captured Russian fighters and Russian ties to the weapon and individuals deemed responsible for the downing over rebel-held territory of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in July 2014, which killed all 283 passengers and crew. Moscow has maintained it is not a party to the ongoing eastern Ukrainian war despite considerable evidence to the contrary, including captured Russian fighters and Russian ties to the weapon and individuals deemed responsible for the downing over rebel-held territory of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in July 2014, which killed all 283 passengers and crew.

The rally's held across Ukraine are actually known as the "No Capitulation" protests. There are five additional "red-lines" that are not denoted above; the total withdrawal of Russian soldiers/mercenaries/agents from Ukraine territory; the return of control of 410 km of Ukraine's border currently controlled by the Russian military; elections in the occupied areas will take place only after the occupation forces have departed; elections shall be held according to Ukraine election laws and shall be observed by international monitors, no amnesty for pro-Russia individuals with blood on their hands.

The majority in Ukraine want no amnesty at all extended. Although Zelenskyy was elected on a platform of ending the war and ending official corruption, ending the war via political capitulation to the invader is not acceptable. The return of Crimea seems an impossible barrier to a comprehensive settlement. Zelenskyy is at a distinct disadvantage in today's negotiations; he is a political novice, and Macron, Merkel, and Putin will all be pressuring Ze to make concessions. My advice would be to walk away rather than agree to items that compromise the territorial integrity and unity of Ukraine. No compromise regarding Ukraine's integration into the EU and possibly Nato. It is especially important that Ze not agree to any "special status" for the currently occupied territory. If Putin is rewarded for aggression, he will do so again in regards to Ukraine and in other nearby nations.

Phys251 · Dec 9, 2019

Rogue Valley said:
In Kyiv, Crowd Lays Out 'Red Lines' For Zelenskiy Ahead Of Peace Talks

The rally's held across Ukraine are actually known as the "No Capitulation" protests. There are five additional "red-lines" that are not denoted above; the total withdrawal of Russian soldiers/mercenaries/agents from Ukraine territory; the return of control of 410 km of Ukraine's border currently controlled by the Russian military; elections in the occupied areas will take place only after the occupation forces have departed; elections shall be held according to Ukraine election laws and shall be observed by international monitors, no amnesty for pro-Russia individuals with blood on their hands.

The majority in Ukraine want no amnesty at all extended. Although Zelenskyy was elected on a platform of ending the war and ending official corruption, ending the war via political capitulation to the invader is not acceptable. The return of Crimea seems an impossible barrier to a comprehensive settlement. Zelenskyy is at a distinct disadvantage in today's negotiations; he is a political novice, and Macron, Merkel, and Putin will all be pressuring Ze to make concessions. My advice would be to walk away rather than agree to items that compromise the territorial integrity and unity of Ukraine. No compromise regarding Ukraine's integration into the EU and possibly Nato. It is especially important that Ze not agree to any "special status" for the currently occupied territory. If Putin is rewarded for aggression, he will do so again in regards to Ukraine and in other nearby nations.

It amazes me that our media doesn't more closely cover the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which is a literal act of war.

Rogue Valley · Dec 9, 2019

Phys251 said:
It amazes me that our media doesn't more closely cover the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which is a literal act of war.

The only active war in Europe and one that has been going on now for five years, 14,000 dead, 25,000 wounded, and 1.5 million displaced due to Russian aggression.

What if those war casualty numbers above occurred in England, France, or Germany? World War III would be on.

Phys251 · Dec 9, 2019

Rogue Valley said:
The only active war in Europe and one that has been going on now for five years, 14,000 dead, 25,000 wounded, and 1.5 million displaced due to Russian aggression.

What if those war casualty numbers above occurred in England, France, or Germany? World War III would be on.

That's because of the US media's rules.

100 people killed in a terrorist attack outside the West: :shrug:
Even one person killed in a terrorist attack in the West:

As pro-West as I am, even I know that this kind of framing is a real problem.

rocket88 · Dec 9, 2019

Rogue Valley said:
In Kyiv, Crowd Lays Out 'Red Lines' For Zelenskiy Ahead Of Peace Talks

The rally's held across Ukraine are actually known as the "No Capitulation" protests. There are five additional "red-lines" that are not denoted above; the total withdrawal of Russian soldiers/mercenaries/agents from Ukraine territory; the return of control of 410 km of Ukraine's border currently controlled by the Russian military; elections in the occupied areas will take place only after the occupation forces have departed; elections shall be held according to Ukraine election laws and shall be observed by international monitors, no amnesty for pro-Russia individuals with blood on their hands.

The majority in Ukraine want no amnesty at all extended. Although Zelenskyy was elected on a platform of ending the war and ending official corruption, ending the war via political capitulation to the invader is not acceptable. The return of Crimea seems an impossible barrier to a comprehensive settlement. Zelenskyy is at a distinct disadvantage in today's negotiations; he is a political novice, and Macron, Merkel, and Putin will all be pressuring Ze to make concessions. My advice would be to walk away rather than agree to items that compromise the territorial integrity and unity of Ukraine. No compromise regarding Ukraine's integration into the EU and possibly Nato. It is especially important that Ze not agree to any "special status" for the currently occupied territory. If Putin is rewarded for aggression, he will do so again in regards to Ukraine and in other nearby nations.

So really what they want is not peace negotiatoons. Regardless of who's right and who's wrong, if you go in without compromise you're not going to get results .

Rogue Valley · Dec 9, 2019

rocket88 said:
So really what they want is not peace negotiatoons. Regardless of who's right and who's wrong, if you go in without compromise you're not going to get results .

Putin said months ago that Crimea is not open for discussion. That sort of attitude precludes and kind of comprehensive agreement.

I'm sure you wouldn't agree to Putin walking away with Alaska to end a war he started with the USA.

About the best that can happen today (realistically) is an agreement for a total POW/political-prisoner exchange and an understanding to meet again regularly.

rocket88 · Dec 9, 2019

Rogue Valley said:
Putin said months ago that Crimea is not open for discussion. That sort of attitude precludes and kind of comprehensive agreement.

I'm sure you wouldn't agree to Putin walking away with Alaska to end a war he started with the USA.

About the best that can happen today (realistically) is an agreement for a total POW/political-prisoner exchange and an understanding to meet again regularly.

I wouldn't accept that. I don't think Putin is right, but you've got 2 sides unwilling to budge. That's not likely to result in anything. Ukraine's conditions are for Putin to surrender basically. He has no reason to do that.

I guess what i'm saying is that unless someone is willing to budge, you might as well cancel the talks because they're not going anywhere.

Rogue Valley · Dec 9, 2019

rocket88 said:
I wouldn't accept that. I don't think Putin is right, but you've got 2 sides unwilling to budge. That's not likely to result in anything. Ukraine's conditions are for Putin to surrender basically. He has no reason to do that.

Ukraine's conditions are the return of Crimea and all Russian military forces out of its Donbas territory. Are you inferring an invader has some "right" to be treated kindly and rewarded?

rocket88 said:
I guess what i'm saying is that unless someone is willing to budge, you might as well cancel the talks because they're not going anywhere.

Well, why should the invaded offer the invader concessions? Did Stalin offer Hitler parts of the Soviet Union to go away?

What Putin wants is a special political solution that would spell the end of Ukraine. "Federated autonomy".

The occupied territories would be granted "special status" in Ukrainian law and the Ukraine Constitution. They could make their own laws and conclude their own trade agreements etc. separate from Ukraine.

Ukraine would subsidize them. But they would enjoy veto-power over Ukraine national policy objectives such as joining the European Union.

This political solution that Putin wants amounts to the tail (the formally occupied territories) wagging the dog (Ukraine). No nation would agree to this setup. Putin certainly wouldn't if he were placed in such a situation.

rocket88 · Dec 9, 2019

Rogue Valley said:
Ukraine's conditions are the return of Crimea and all Russian military forces out of its Donbas territory. Are you inferring an invader has some "right" to be treated kindly and rewarded?

Well, why should the invaded offer the invader concessions? Did Stalin offer Hitler parts of the Soviet Union to go away?

What Putin wants is a special political solution that would spell the end of Ukraine. "Federated autonomy".

The occupied territories would be granted "special status" in Ukrainian law and the Ukraine Constitution. They could make their own laws and conclude their own trade agreements etc. separate from Ukraine.

Ukraine would subsidize them. But they would enjoy veto-power over Ukraine national policy objectives such as joining the European Union.

This political solution that Putin wants amounts to the tail (the formally occupied territories) wagging the dog (Ukraine). No nation would agree to this setup. Putin certainly wouldn't if he were placed in such a situation.

As i said they want Putin's surrender. Do you really think that has a chance?

Ukraine as it existed before could not succeed as a state. The people of Crimea and the Donbass voted for a pro-Russian candidate, and the western minded forces had to force him out of power. Twice. Returning to the status quo as it was is only going to lead to that again. The people there do not want Kiev making all the rules. Should they not have a say?

Tigerace117 · Dec 9, 2019

Rogue Valley said:
In Kyiv, Crowd Lays Out 'Red Lines' For Zelenskiy Ahead Of Peace Talks

The rally's held across Ukraine are actually known as the "No Capitulation" protests. There are five additional "red-lines" that are not denoted above; the total withdrawal of Russian soldiers/mercenaries/agents from Ukraine territory; the return of control of 410 km of Ukraine's border currently controlled by the Russian military; elections in the occupied areas will take place only after the occupation forces have departed; elections shall be held according to Ukraine election laws and shall be observed by international monitors, no amnesty for pro-Russia individuals with blood on their hands.

The majority in Ukraine want no amnesty at all extended. Although Zelenskyy was elected on a platform of ending the war and ending official corruption, ending the war via political capitulation to the invader is not acceptable. The return of Crimea seems an impossible barrier to a comprehensive settlement. Zelenskyy is at a distinct disadvantage in today's negotiations; he is a political novice, and Macron, Merkel, and Putin will all be pressuring Ze to make concessions. My advice would be to walk away rather than agree to items that compromise the territorial integrity and unity of Ukraine. No compromise regarding Ukraine's integration into the EU and possibly Nato. It is especially important that Ze not agree to any "special status" for the currently occupied territory. If Putin is rewarded for aggression, he will do so again in regards to Ukraine and in other nearby nations.

So in other words negotiations are totally pointless. The Russians aren’t going to return Crimea, especially with the calls to potentially join NATO.

Rogue Valley · Dec 9, 2019

rocket88 said:
As i said they want Putin's surrender. Do you really think that has a chance?

Of course Zelenskyy wants Russian troops out of Ukraine. What president wouldn't want the invader's forces out?

This concept really has to be explained to you? SMH.

Rogue Valley · Dec 9, 2019

rocket88 said:
Ukraine as it existed before could not succeed as a state.

Existed before what?

rocket88 said:
The people of Crimea and the Donbass voted for a pro-Russian candidate, and the western minded forces had to force him out of power.

Yanukovych? He embezzled billions from the State of Ukraine and ordered the Berkut to fire on civilians Feb 20-21 2014 killing over 100.

With Putin's help, he fled to Russia on the night of Feb. 21-22 in a helicopter stuffed with suitcases filled with Ukraine government money.

The next day, Feb. 22, his own majority Party of Regions voted to remove him from office.

rocket88 said:
The people there do not want Kiev making all the rules. Should they not have a say?

And you know this how? You've lived in Ukraine and understand the internal dynamics?

rocket88 · Dec 9, 2019

Rogue Valley said:
Of course Zelenskyy wants Russian troops out of Ukraine. What president wouldn't want the invader's forces out?

This concept really has to be explained to you? SMH.

Oh, he wants that. Do you think he will get everything he wants ?

thedimon · Dec 9, 2019

rocket88 said:
Oh, he wants that. Do you think he will get everything he wants ?

I think it’s reasonable to at least stop the bleeding in the East, seal off Crimea and wait for better days after Pootin dies.

rocket88 · Dec 9, 2019

Rogue Valley said:
Existed before what?

Yanukovych? He embezzled billions from the State of Ukraine and ordered the Berkut to fire on civilians Feb 20-21 2014 killing over 100.

With Putin's help, he fled to Russia on the night of Feb. 21-22 in a helicopter stuffed with suitcases filled with Ukraine government money.

The next day, Feb. 22, his own majority Party of Regions voted to remove him from office.

And you know this how? You've lived in Ukraine and understand the internal dynamics?

Ukraine as it existed before the problems that the conference is intended to solve could not function as a democracy. That was proved. Why do you think it would be different this time?

Yanukovich wss elected. Clearly, he was not fit to rule, but he was. Foreign policy was his to control as a result. Many eanted to join the EU, but he was in control of that. That's how elections work even in this country. Those who disagreef with his policy had to have a "revolution " twice because they couldn't win an election. Why do you think this time would be different?

If the people in the Donbass wanted to be controlled by Kiev, they would be. Their uprising which Putin stepped into was because they didn't. Why do you think thst now they do?

You seem to he operating inder this idealized version of things where suddenly everything will work out now. It's not that easy.

thedimon · Dec 10, 2019

rocket88 said:
Ukraine as it existed before the problems that the conference is intended to solve could not function as a democracy. That was proved. Why do you think it would be different this time?

Yanukovich wss elected. Clearly, he was not fit to rule, but he was. Foreign policy was his to control as a result. Many eanted to join the EU, but he was in control of that. That's how elections work even in this country. Those who disagreef with his policy had to have a "revolution " twice because they couldn't win an election. Why do you think this time would be different?

If the people in the Donbass wanted to be controlled by Kiev, they would be. Their uprising which Putin stepped into was because they didn't. Why do you think thst now they do?

You seem to he operating inder this idealized version of things where suddenly everything will work out now. It's not that easy.

You are right, in a way, that with Crimea and Donbass breaking off from Ukraine with its very prorussian population the rest of Ukraine is now squarely in pro-Western field and the country finally turned away from Russia. In the most recent elections politicians didn’t discuss Russia vs West - they discussed how they would transform country faster to get the West to accept it.

Rogue Valley · Dec 10, 2019

rocket88 said:
Ukraine as it existed before the problems that the conference is intended to solve could not function as a democracy. That was proved. Why do you think it would be different this time?

I have no idea of what you are talking about. Ukraine has held national elections since its independence in 1991. If you are referring to political differences in many elections between the east and the west portions of the country, that seems to have largely disappeared during the 2014 and 2019 national elections. Make sure you read the legends.....

You'll notice the votes for pro-Russia candidates - Dobkin in 2014 and Boyko in 2019 - are nothing like the previous political divide which typically extended to the Dneiper river.

Below is the 1991 national referendum for Ukraine's independence from Russia. No oblast voted to remain with the Russian Federation.

rocket88 said:
Yanukovich wss elected. Clearly, he was not fit to rule, but he was. Foreign policy was his to control as a result. Many eanted to join the EU, but he was in control of that. That's how elections work even in this country. Those who disagreef with his policy had to have a "revolution " twice because they couldn't win an election. Why do you think this time would be different?

Yanukovych was removed from power by his own political party. His removal was officially due to abdication of office (he fled to Russia). However, he fled because on February 21, he agreed in writing to hold a new election within a month. This written pledge was witnessed by the German, French, and Russian ambassadors who also signed the document. Yanukovych knew his game of treachery and corruption was over. The staunch pro-Ukraine candidate Petro Poroshenko won in a landslide in the new election.

rocket88 said:
If the people in the Donbass wanted to be controlled by Kiev, they would be.

Memo: The Donbas is under Russian military occupation.

rocket88 said:
Their uprising which Putin stepped into was because they didn't. Why do you think thst now they do?

Uprising? Do you mean GRU Spetznaz agents taking over police stations in the east? You think this was an organic uprising? Holy Crap.

Donbas ‘separatism’: Myth, statistics and heavily armed Russian spetsnaz

rocket88 said:
You seem to he operating inder this idealized version of things where suddenly everything will work out now. It's not that easy.

You seem to be operating under "alternative truths". I never considered you a Russian shill but hey, it is what it is.

Your knowledge of the internal political dynamics of Ukraine is [perhaps understandably] sorely lacking. But you have no excuse for pushing patently Russian disinformation in your posts.

In Kyiv, Crowd Lays Out 'Red Lines' For Zelenskiy Ahead Of Peace Talks

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