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Thread: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

  1. #21
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    Re: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Valley View Post
    Only superficially. In 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea and eastern Ukraine, the Ukraine military was in a terrible state and could muster only ~6,000 soldiers with any training. It was decided to have this force (ragged as it was) protect Kyiv. Russia had positioned ~75,000 troops on Ukraine's eastern border and controlled the border. The Russian invasion was an existential threat to Ukraine (recall the Russian plans for a Novorossiya). Into this vacuum went two volunteer battalions (Donbass and Azov) of primarily Russian speakers from eastern Ukraine who did not want to see the country partitioned by Moscow. Another volunteer battalion from western Ukraine (Red Sektor) was composed of mostly far-right Ukraine nationalists. These three volunteer battalions suffered heavy casualties (up to 1,000 at Illovaisk alone) but stemmed the Kremlin invasion and designs on partitioning Ukraine at the Dneiper River (approx. 50% of Ukraine). The Azov recaptured the major city of Mariupol (450,000) from Russian forces and Donbass recaptured Slavyansk, Kramatorsk, etc.

    Two separate reports from the OSCE (official eastern Ukraine monitor) identified a handful of unverified accusations of torture by the Azov Battalion between 2014-2015. In 2016 the Donbass and Azov battalions were rolled into the Ukraine National Guard. Other volunteer battalions that were incorporated into the UA included the Aidar and the Dnipro battalions. All Red Sektor forces were excluded and play no role today in the defense of Ukraine. In 2016 Ukraine also introduced military conscription. It was decided then to leave the seasoned Donbass, Azov, Aidar, and Dnipro regiments and battalions face the Russians in the east, as new conscript regiments and battalions were trained by NATO instructors (US/Canada/Britain/Lithuania/Latvia/Poland) at the Yavovriv Combat Training Center at Yavovriv, western Ukraine. In 2019 the Ukraine armed forces total 255,000 active with 1,000,000 in reserve. There are also ~15,000 contract soldiers. 65,000 UA troops are assigned to the eastern Ukraine ATO which includes the battalions mentioned above and additional mechanized battalions and naval forces.

    Almost constantly, government officials from the US and the EU (block/nations) visit Ukraine and tour the ATO. The same is true of western military brass and NATO instructors. Currently, elements of the 101st Airborne Division are in Ukraine on a Yavovriv CTC rotation. Elements of the US and British militaries visit the ATO to learn firsthand Russian land war doctrine and tactics. None of this would be transpiring if Nazis were running around. Nazis in Ukraine is a common theme of Kremlin disinformation. Yet the data from Ukraine elections from 2014-2019 show that far-right candidates garner <2% of the nationwide vote and not enough for party representation in the Verkhovna Rada (Parliament). There are currently no far-right MPs sitting in Ukraine's parliament. Contrast this with the 40 Deputies of the Liberal Democratic Party of Vladimir Zhirinovsky in the Russian State Duma. The LDPR is far-right and ultra-nationalist.

    ...which is the whole point of said House Democrats demanding that the Azov Battalion be listed as terrorists—to prevent US troops from training the folks who literally use the wolfsangel as a logo.

    The wolfsangel, in case you forgot, was used quite heavily indeed by SS units such as 2nd SS Panzer Division “Das Reich” and the 4th SS Polizei Panzergrenadier Division.

    So in other words the Azov Battalion has not, in fact, been disbanded and Ukraine is letting Neo-Nazis running around with full state backing because they are “experienced”. Perhaps if Ukraine wanted to avoid Russian propaganda pointing out that there are nazis running around there, they should, gee, get rid of the ****ing Nazis they’ve got running around.

  2. #22
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    Re: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerace117 View Post
    So in other words the Azov Battalion has not, in fact, been disbanded and Ukraine is letting Neo-Nazis running around with full state backing because they are “experienced”. Perhaps if Ukraine wanted to avoid Russian propaganda pointing out that there are nazis running around there, they should, gee, get rid of the ****ing Nazis they’ve got running around.
    You see Nazis literally everywhere except in your own back yard.


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    Re: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerace117 View Post
    But we don’t have Neo Nazi militias running around as part of our military, which does put us up on some places.
    Uh, I mean we might as well when we allow arms dealers and crony ultra-capitalist extremists to meddle in the US intelligence community and foreign policy apparatus...

    Also I notice while you correctly acknowledge the existence of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, you incorrectly try to whitewash US/Western role in the rise of those militia in the first place...

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    Re: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Abbazorkzog View Post
    Uh, I mean we might as well when we allow arms dealers and crony ultra-capitalist extremists to meddle in the US intelligence community and foreign policy apparatus...

    Also I notice while you correctly acknowledge the existence of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, you incorrectly try to whitewash US/Western role in the rise of those militia in the first place...
    Ukraine is no exception. There are neo-Nazis in every Western country. Well, maybe not the Vatican (but the Vatican did provide the documentation for thousands of Nazis to flee Europe after WWII)

    I shared lunch with some platoons of the Azov battalion back in 2014. If they were neo-Nazis, it sure didn't sound like it. Most were Russian-speaking Ukrainians who were native to the Donbas region (Luhansk/Donetsk) and were determined to defend Ukraine and drive the Russian military invaders back across the border. There were also Jewish members of the Azov. Red Sector (Pravyi Sektor) is another animal entirely. They were indeed neo-Nazis. When Dmytro Yarosh left Red Sector in 2015, the organization pretty much folded. The far-right nationalist organizations in Ukraine today include the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Svoboda (Freedom), and C14. The Azov Battalion? No. Any existent far-right ideology has been diluted since 2016 when it became just another military battalion in the UA. What amuses me is the drumbeat of "Ukrainian Nazis" by the Kremlin gets folks into a tizzy when it is in fact Moscow that is responsible for 13,000+dead, 25,000+wounded, and 1.5 million displaced war refugees in Ukraine.


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    Re: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Valley View Post
    You see Nazis literally everywhere except in your own back yard.
    Ah yes, and now you are throwing a tantrum because you don’t want to face facts. I hate to break it to you but “I talked to them and they didn’t sound like Nazis to me durr” is not evidence of anything.

    Letting Neo Nazi thugs run around as part of your military is not something which should be tolerated period....nor should collaborators be celebrated as heroes.

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    Re: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

    Even if they weren't literal Nazis, they would at the very least be considered a terrorist organization by any considerably anti-terrorist or counterterrorist effort, due to their ultra-nationalist/far-right/neo-fascist militancy. Granted, they wouldn't be there if not for the dick measuring competition between Washington and Moscow, but I digress...

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    Re: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Abbazorkzog View Post
    Even if they weren't literal Nazis, they would at the very least be considered a terrorist organization by any considerably anti-terrorist or counterterrorist effort, due to their ultra-nationalist/far-right/neo-fascist militancy. Granted, they wouldn't be there if not for the dick measuring competition between Washington and Moscow, but I digress...
    I really don't follow your line of attack. Almost all western nations have far-right militant organizations.

    You can even find armed far-right militia's in the US in Idaho, Montana, and on the southern border.

    I don't see anyone here raising a stink about that. Neither you nor him. And I've also shown pics/articles of the far-right in Russia.

    But bring up the far-right in the US and Russia and crickets all around. Absolutely nothing. Everything diverts back to Ukraine.

    The oddest thing I've ever seen. And there's no shortage of craziness in the Age of Trump.


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    Re: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    It's been on a steep decline since WW-II, but it looks like the scourge of nationalism is on the rise again. Is Trump's a protagonist? Or, is he merely the result? I think both.
    In his UN speech, Trump proclaimed nationalism as the wave of the future.

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    Re: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Valley View Post
    I really don't follow your line of attack. Almost all western nations have far-right militant organizations.
    That's what I'm saying. The UN Security Councilors and their biggest fluffers are some of the most massive hypocrites for overobsessing about terrorists in Ukraine when you have terrorists at the southern border, terrorists committing "mass shootings" (although they're REALLY domestic terrorist attacks but don't say that to the gun control crowd) across the US on a regular basis, Turkey also supporting terrorists while committing ethnic cleansing (due to enabling by US), Russia occupying eastern Ukraine with terrorists, China committing atrocities against ethnic Uyghurs, UK suppressing their connections to Russia a la Brexit, and NATO is falling apart while the French president laughs about it and pals around with Putin and other dictators. The most dangerous terrorist organization it would seem are not Ukrainian militants, not al-Qaeda or ISIL, but the UN Security Councilors...

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    Re: Russian Nationalists To Stage Marches To Mark Unity Day Holiday

    Ruling party in Ukraine explains idea of lifting military draft

    11/13/19
    Iryna Vereshchuk, a Ukrainian MP (Servant of the People) and government envoy to parliament, has said the abolition of military draft will allow Ukraine to create professional Armed Forces in line with NATO standards. Commenting on the relevant statement by Ukrainian Defense Minister Andriy Zagorodnyuk, as well as on possible time frame for the creation of fully professional Armed Forces, she said: "Zagorodnyuk says it will not happen now, this year and even next year," according to the Ukrainian online news outlet Obozrevatel. "The strategic goal is the transition to a professional Army by NATO standards. We must strive for this. Public and government discussions in this regard have been going on for years: who is more effective on the battlefield – a professional soldier or an 18-year-old conscript who was called up after school and immediately deployed," Vereshchuk said. Vereshchuk says military draft cuts should be correlated with a buildup of the professional Army of contracted troops.

    "We realize how much it takes to train someone to become a professional... NATO standards require major investment. Professionalization requires expenses from the state budget," the MP said. "If we're talking professional Army, the number [of troops] should decrease. […] We live in line with regulations drafted back in the Soviet Union. We must now do our best to save lives of our servicemen and achieve victories on the battlefield... A professional Army shouldn't be larger. There will be no need for this, because now wars are fought with combat drones and IT. [Governments] are doing their best to save the lives and health of their soldiers," she said. According to Vereshchuk, the Army is now becoming more professional. "I'll cite an example of the Spec-ops Forces. They were founded after hostilities broke out and they have proved effective," she added.
    I stated this on 11/10 - Post #20 and now the official announcement has been made.


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