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Crimean Tatars Mark Anniversary Of Stalin-Era Deportations

Rogue Valley

Rogue Valley

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Crimean Tatars Mark Anniversary Of Stalin-Era Deportations

In 1944, Russia deported the entire Crimea population of the Tatar people to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan.

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Packed into railroad cars and shipped east like animals.

5/18/19
SIMFEROPOL -- Dozens of Crimean Tatars have marked the anniversary of the Stalin-era deportations from the Black Sea peninsula, with police warning participants that the event was unauthorized but otherwise not interfering. The May 18 event, held in the peninsula's capital city Simferopol, took place without incident or any reported detentions, even as some participants argued with law enforcement officials. Around 100 people recited prayers at a city park where a small monument stands to the tens of thousands who died during the 1944 deportations. Some participants dressed in traditional garb, while others carried the flag of the Crimean Tatar community. Several elderly survivors recalled their experiences from the deportations. Тhe Black Sea peninsula was annexed by Russia in March 2014. Tens of thousands died during the operation and during the first severe months in Kazakhstan and other remote parts of the Soviet Union. They were only allowed to begin returning to Crimea in the late 1980s.
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Mass deportations in 1944. Persecutions under the Russian occupation today.....

Related: Human Rights Watch | Crimea: Persecution of Crimean Tatars Intensifies

Crimea: Arrests Aimed at Silencing and Marginalizing Crimean Tatars Should Be Investigated
 
There are no other ethnic groups so hated among all the peoples of the EuroAsian steppes. From Mongols and Chin peoples of the east, to the Slavs and Rus on the west, from the Arctic to the Afghani mountain ranges, Tarters murdered, tortured, raided, pillaged, raped, kidnapped for the purpose of slavery, for more than 2,000 years. Their legacy one of terror only ending with Russian Civil War and WWII destroying the bulk of the Cossacks. While the Cossacks were a mercenary force not exclusive to Tartars, it was dominated by them, and their last refuge, as they were coopted by the Tsars to fight under almost imperial leadership thanks to Taras Bulba. They were the Russian source of pogroms against defenseless Jewish farmers and merchants, the held down the proletariat marches with their ruthless cavalry charges, there were no obscene actions of violence they did not commit for the Tsars. They were a more horrid KKK for Russia that made weekly lynchings in the US seem comparatively tame. All in the name of Russian purity, for Russians who feared and despised their cruelty. By the end of the Russian Civil war, what was left of the Tartars had been forced into the Ukraine, their last refuge of power.

None of this, of course, justifies Stalin's Georgian hatred for Tartars, nor his subsequent actions upon gaining power. Now the Soviets are gone, and the Tartars have returned to Ukraine, crying over their suffering. They who made others suffer for thousands of years gain political sympathy in the west, and none in the east or among other Russian and Turkish peoples of the steppes. Many remember why the Tartar is still hated. Many approved of the Holodomor as a fitting end for the Tartar. Many fear the resurgence of the Tartar and the Tartar legacy. Included among the fearful, the ethnic Ukrainians, Poles, Turkish and Germanic Peoples of Ukraine who are not Tartar.

Somewhat ironically, the Young Turks, who later dominated the cruel Ottoman empire, rose from the ranks of Tartars. Tartars who had enslaved Turkish women from northern India as they migrated to Anatolia. Today's Turkey. The Tartar way, take the women, enslave and kill the men. They had learned the power of bedroom assimilation from their hated enemies the Mongols, who used the same tactics to build dynasties in China, Persia and Babylonia, and of course the subcontinent, India.

It is easy to judge from afar. Historical legacies and memories. Who am I to judge?
 
Oh boy, but where to start?

The cossacks were never dominated by Tatar leadership, they were of Eastern Slav ancestry with some Turkic thrown in.

The Tatars (some) allied themselves with the Mongols as early as Genghis Khan (forming part of his army).

Taras Bulba (also known as Yul Brynner :mrgreen:) is a fictional character and as such never existed.

........and so on.....and so on.
 
Chagos said:
Oh boy, but where to start?

The cossacks were never dominated by Tatar leadership, they were of Eastern Slav ancestry with some Turkic thrown in.

The Tatars (some) allied themselves with the Mongols as early as Genghis Khan (forming part of his army).

Taras Bulba (also known as Yul Brynner :mrgreen:) is a fictional character and as such never existed.

........and so on.....and so on.
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Given that the poster in question had previously claimed that hundreds of GIs were killed by Germans after the surrender to justify atrocities he claims members of his family committed in Germany......saying his reliability is questionable is putting it mildly.
 
Chagos said:
Oh boy, but where to start?

The cossacks were never dominated by Tatar leadership, they were of Eastern Slav ancestry with some Turkic thrown in.

The Tatars (some) allied themselves with the Mongols as early as Genghis Khan (forming part of his army).

Taras Bulba (also known as Yul Brynner :mrgreen:) is a fictional character and as such never existed.

........and so on.....and so on.
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You're wrong. Тарас Бульб, Taras Bulba as depicted in Nikolai Gogol's novel of the same name, a euphemism for Taj Buhbarin who united the southeastern Tartar tribes, not only existed, but negotiated a peace with the Tsars, agreeing to have his forces serve the Tsars in the southeast of the growing empire. They were mercenaries until Peter gave them Russian citizenship, replacing their annual fees with royal cavalry payrolls. Less expensive, in the name of rights. The cossacks who were originally groups of independent Tarter tribal mercenaries united as Cossacks by the Taj's grandson, later took on all comers, including Slavs, Turks, Rus, and even northern Indians. As long as they could ride, use a sword and bow, later guns, they were welcome. The character of the novel, literary license in the change of centuries and roles.

Twice the great Khans attempted to completely eliminate the Tartars, the Mongol's most hated enemies. Failing both times as the Tarters moved west, north and south, dispersing on the EuroAsian steppes. Regrouping and being a Pita for the Mongols when they headed west to invade Europe, an invasion prevented at the last minute only by an internecine family war in the east when one of the Khans died, breaking the Mongol empire into its parts. Empires always fail from within.

Hollywood did base its story on Gogol's novel, but any student of Russian literature understands the characters portrayed are almost always based on Russian historical figures, with fiction used as tool in the telling to avoid persecution by the ruling class. Everything and every character is metaphor. Not much different than early English and French auteurs. Try reading Jonathan Swift with a history book of the times, and you can identify the real life basis for each of his characters, real people he was lampooning. Yul Bryner almost fit the part, all he needed was the forelock falling to the left eyebrow and the braided queue at the rear of his head. Trademarks of the Tartars, and later, the Cossacks. Style makes the man. :) Gogol was a precursor of the Russian revolutionary writers. Had he not used fiction, he would have been sent to Siberia. He was tried and sent to Siberia, but died first. He was a Russian Ukrainian, forced to leave Ukraine by Tartars, living his life in Russia.

One of the ironies of the Cossacks, they had adopted the Eastern Orthodox religion of the tsars, persecuting muslim tartars as often as they did all others. Nothing worse than a reformed alcoholic or former cigarette smoker.
 
OldFatGuy said:
There are no other ethnic groups so hated among all the peoples of the EuroAsian steppes. From Mongols and Chin peoples of the east, to the Slavs and Rus on the west, from the Arctic to the Afghani mountain ranges, Tarters murdered, tortured, raided, pillaged, raped, kidnapped for the purpose of slavery, for more than 2,000 years. Their legacy one of terror only ending with Russian Civil War and WWII destroying the bulk of the Cossacks. While the Cossacks were a mercenary force not exclusive to Tartars, it was dominated by them, and their last refuge, as they were coopted by the Tsars to fight under almost imperial leadership thanks to Taras Bulba. They were the Russian source of pogroms against defenseless Jewish farmers and merchants, the held down the proletariat marches with their ruthless cavalry charges, there were no obscene actions of violence they did not commit for the Tsars. They were a more horrid KKK for Russia that made weekly lynchings in the US seem comparatively tame. All in the name of Russian purity, for Russians who feared and despised their cruelty. By the end of the Russian Civil war, what was left of the Tartars had been forced into the Ukraine, their last refuge of power.

None of this, of course, justifies Stalin's Georgian hatred for Tartars, nor his subsequent actions upon gaining power. Now the Soviets are gone, and the Tartars have returned to Ukraine, crying over their suffering. They who made others suffer for thousands of years gain political sympathy in the west, and none in the east or among other Russian and Turkish peoples of the steppes. Many remember why the Tartar is still hated. Many approved of the Holodomor as a fitting end for the Tartar. Many fear the resurgence of the Tartar and the Tartar legacy. Included among the fearful, the ethnic Ukrainians, Poles, Turkish and Germanic Peoples of Ukraine who are not Tartar.

Somewhat ironically, the Young Turks, who later dominated the cruel Ottoman empire, rose from the ranks of Tartars. Tartars who had enslaved Turkish women from northern India as they migrated to Anatolia. Today's Turkey. The Tartar way, take the women, enslave and kill the men. They had learned the power of bedroom assimilation from their hated enemies the Mongols, who used the same tactics to build dynasties in China, Persia and Babylonia, and of course the subcontinent, India.

It is easy to judge from afar. Historical legacies and memories. Who am I to judge?
Click to expand...

But you are very judgmental indeed. The early Tatars were actually little different than all of the other people's who inhabited that time and place in southern Ukraine/Russia. The Turkic speaking Crimean Tatars are an amalgam of Mongols and Kipchaks. Considered the indigenous people of Crimea, they emerged as a minor empire (Crimean Khanate) during the 15th-18th centuries. They were infamous for their slave trade. This all came to a crashing halt with the Russo-Turkish War (1768–74).

In modern times the Tatars were deported en-mass (1944) by Stalin. They slowly began returning to Crimea after Stalin's death in 1954 and the return floodgates opened wide with the independence of Ukraine in 1991. In 2014 they comprised 12% of the population of Crimea. With the illegal annexation of Crimea by Russia in 2014, they are again a marked and persecuted people. Moscow has banned Tatar political parties, banned their parliament, closed down their TV station, and Russian security forced have assassinated and arrested hundreds. They are also persecuted for their religion. Indeed, Russia always arrests Tatars on Islamic terrorism grounds. ~20,000 Crimean Tatars have fled to Kyiv. While many of the Crimean IDPs assumed their displacement would be temporary, the current reality is that they will most likely remain displaced on mainland Ukraine far longer because they are not willing to return to Crimea as long as it is part of Russia. Moreover, they are unable to access their savings due to the closure of Ukrainian banks in the peninsula and are unable to sell their assets because of new property registration systems that the Russian authorities are putting in place which will prevent the displaced from selling their original property.

The United Nations, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch have all spoken out about the persecution of the Tatar people.....

UNGA Resolution 73/263 | Situation of human rights in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol, Ukraine

Amnesty International | Crimea In The Dark: The Silencing Of Dissent

Human Rights Watch | Crimea: Persecution of Crimean Tatars Intensifies
 
Methinks the foray into history (going into a total mix-up of Cossacks, Tatars and Mongols) that was attempted here can safely be filed under "yikes".:lamo
 
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Rogue Valley said:
But you are very judgmental indeed.
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Of the Tartars, I am indeed judgmental. They are not a mix of Mongols and Kipchaks, they are a people unto themselves. Both sides of my family have fought Tartars from time immemorial. No doubt they are a mixture of many peoples from over the eons, who they raped, tortured and enslaved. Who's women they made their own by force. Granted it has been the way of the world, but never with such unmatched cruelty.

I don't care which organizations speak out in behalf of the Tartars. They, as a people are undeserving of anyone's mercy. They never showed or gave mercy. Mercy does not exist in their language. They are not indigenous to Ukraine, the Crimea, only northeast Asia. Today, Mongolia bars entry to any Tartars. They have not forgotten.

The worst of the Nazi concentration and death camp guards were Ukrainian Tartars. They are not forgotten, nor is their abject cruelty which even the most fervent Nazis decried.

Who am I to judge?

I am Mari, sworn enemies of the Tartars for centuries uncountable. We have fought Christians and muslims, but our most deepest hate is reserved for Tartars.

мстители старых богов - Avengers of the Old Gods

Now you know.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Of the Tartars, I am indeed judgmental. They are not a mix of Mongols and Kipchaks, they are a people unto themselves. Both sides of my family have fought Tartars from time immemorial. No doubt they are a mixture of many peoples from over the eons, who they raped, tortured and enslaved. Who's women they made their own by force. Granted it has been the way of the world, but never with such unmatched cruelty.

I don't care which organizations speak out in behalf of the Tartars. They, as a people are undeserving of anyone's mercy. They never showed or gave mercy. Mercy does not exist in their language. They are not indigenous to Ukraine, the Crimea, only northeast Asia. Today, Mongolia bars entry to any Tartars. They have not forgotten.

The worst of the Nazi concentration and death camp guards were Ukrainian Tartars. They are not forgotten, nor is their abject cruelty which even the most fervent Nazis decried.

Who am I to judge?

I am Mari, sworn enemies of the Tartars for centuries uncountable. We have fought Christians and muslims, but our most deepest hate is reserved for Tartars.

мстители старых богов - Avengers of the Old Gods

Now you know.
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You hate a whole ethnicity because your ancestors did? I'll have to try that. Any Godforsaken English here? I hate you all!
 
Grand Mal said:
You hate a whole ethnicity because your ancestors did? I'll have to try that. Any Godforsaken English here? I hate you all!
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If it makes you feel whole, go for it. You wouldn't be the only Irishman, Welshman, Scotsman or Indian from India with the same hatred in your heart. My siblings and I, my cousins, all heard the tales of Tartar cruelty at every occasion, almost every dinner. It is a hate ingrained in our being.
 
OldFatGuy said:
If it makes you feel whole, go for it. You wouldn't be the only Irishman, Welshman, Scotsman or Indian from India with the same hatred in your heart. My siblings and I, my cousins, all heard the tales of Tartar cruelty at every occasion, almost every dinner. It is a hate ingrained in our being.
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Do you think that hate is reciprocal? Tartars, at least the ignorant, uneducated and retrograde ones, do you think they hate you?
Also, preaching this doctrine of hate like you do, do you think what you're doing is a positive contribution? Given your signature and all.
 
Grand Mal said:
Do you think that hate is reciprocal? Tartars, at least the ignorant, uneducated and retrograde ones, do you think they hate you?
Also, preaching this doctrine of hate like you do, do you think what you're doing is a positive contribution? Given your signature and all.
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Yes, they hate us and will do so ever on. We defeated them at every battle fought.

Absolutely not a positive contribution in most people's views. Certainly in my own. Evil is Evil and never stops being Evil. Tartars have offered the world the worst mankind can offer. Not that others haven't done similarly, but none worse for so long.

I am no angel. Just a man, honest about my prejudices. I am not teaching hate, so much as I am explaining my hate.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Of the Tartars, I am indeed judgmental. They are not a mix of Mongols and Kipchaks, they are a people unto themselves. Both sides of my family have fought Tartars from time immemorial. No doubt they are a mixture of many peoples from over the eons, who they raped, tortured and enslaved. Who's women they made their own by force. Granted it has been the way of the world, but never with such unmatched cruelty.

I don't care which organizations speak out in behalf of the Tartars. They, as a people are undeserving of anyone's mercy. They never showed or gave mercy. Mercy does not exist in their language. They are not indigenous to Ukraine, the Crimea, only northeast Asia. Today, Mongolia bars entry to any Tartars. They have not forgotten.

The worst of the Nazi concentration and death camp guards were Ukrainian Tartars. They are not forgotten, nor is their abject cruelty which even the most fervent Nazis decried.

Who am I to judge?

I am Mari, sworn enemies of the Tartars for centuries uncountable. We have fought Christians and muslims, but our most deepest hate is reserved for Tartars.

мстители старых богов - Avengers of the Old Gods

Now you know.
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I don't care if you're Mari or Cossack. Your medieval ancestors were no better or worse than anyone else's back when.

I lived in Crimea for a few years. The Tatars you describe no longer exist.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.
 
Rogue Valley said:
I don't care if you're Mari or Cossack. Your medieval ancestors were no better or worse than anyone else's back when.

I lived in Crimea for a few years. The Tatars you describe no longer exist.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.
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No Mari people worked as guards in the Nazi concentration and death camps. Crimean and Ukraine Tartars did so. Tartars are not gone, buried in the annals of history. Ask the western Chinese peoples, the Mongols and the Russian ethnic groups of eastern and northwestern Russia today. You'll find an attitude very much like my own.
 
OldFatGuy said:
No Mari people worked as guards in the Nazi concentration and death camps. Crimean and Ukraine Tartars did so.
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Most of the concentration camp "Hiwis" -- were camp helpers who were trained near the Polish village of Trawniki near Lublin. These individuals were primarily soldiers serving in the Red Army that had been overrun by the Germans in Operation Barbarossa and interned in abysmal German POW camps. About 5,000 of these Red Army prisoners agreed to serve the German SS rather than starve to death. The nationalities of Trawniki guards included Ukrainians, Russians, Belorussians, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Tatars, Georgians, Armenians and Azerbaijanis. It is statistically impossible that a large portion of these Trawnikimänner were Crimean Tatars.

OldFatGuy said:
Tartars are not gone, buried in the annals of history. Ask the western Chinese peoples, the Mongols and the Russian ethnic groups of eastern and northwestern Russia today. You'll find an attitude very much like my own.
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It is retributive attitudes like yours that encourage the Russian security forces in Crimea to intensify their persecutions of today's Tatar people .... people who had nothing whatsoever to do with that gorilla on your back.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Most of the concentration camp "Hiwis" -- were camp helpers who were trained near the Polish village of Trawniki near Lublin. These individuals were primarily soldiers serving in the Red Army that had been overrun by the Germans in Operation Barbarossa and interned in abysmal German POW camps. About 5,000 of these Red Army prisoners agreed to serve the German SS rather than starve to death. The nationalities of Trawniki guards included Ukrainians, Russians, Belorussians, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Tatars, Georgians, Armenians and Azerbaijanis. It is statistically impossible that a large portion of these Trawnikimänner were Crimean Tatars.



It is retributive attitudes like yours that encourage the Russian security forces in Crimea to intensify their persecutions of today's Tatar people .... people who had nothing whatsoever to do with that gorilla on your back.
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I never said they were Crimean.
 
OldFatGuy said:
I never said they were Crimean.
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The title of this thread is: Crimean Tatars Mark Anniversary Of Stalin-Era Deportations

If you are referring to Tatars other than Crimean, then that saga is not germane to this thread.
 
Rogue Valley said:
The title of this thread is: Crimean Tatars Mark Anniversary Of Stalin-Era Deportations

If you are referring to Tatars other than Crimean, then that saga is not germane to this thread.
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I know the title. Tartars are Tartars, no matter where they are located at the moment. I am Mari no matter where I live.
 
OldFatGuy said:
I know the title. Tartars are Tartars, no matter where they are located at the moment. I am Mari no matter where I live.
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That is as foolish as blaming today's Georgians for Andersonville.

The Tatars living on Crimea today have literally nothing to do with your perpetual ethnic animosities. I provided you the UN/AI/HRW persecution links.

There isn't anything to be gained by rehashing this, so I'll just bow out at this time. Mir.
 
Rogue Valley said:
That is as foolish as blaming today's Georgians for Andersonville.

The Tatars living on Crimea today have literally nothing to do with your perpetual ethnic animosities. I provided you the UN/AI/HRW persecution links.

There isn't anything to be gained by rehashing this, so I'll just bow out at this time. Mir.
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I am what I am. No excuses.
 
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