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Putting this out to Christians in the crowd...atheists, feel free to jump in as well, just know that we know you don't believe in God, so you can skip all the usual trolling, and just apply your logic to this as a hypothetical / philosophical discussion. Just trying to keep things respectful, I think the discussion will be more interesting that way, vs. the usual rinse and repeat us vs. them that always happens in this sub forum.
Been wrestling with this one for years. Christians like to talk about free will, that God always gives a choice, but I struggle with that because of the following assumptions:
1) God is infallible, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent
2) God has a plan or purpose for his creation
3) The Holy Spirit determines who receives the gifts of the spirit, one of which is Faith
4) We are saved through Faith alone.
(Can provide biblical references, but would assume most people jumping into this conversation would be aware of these precepts).
If the above is true, then Choice would allow you to thwart God's plan. If Choice is not possible, then it is impossible for us to save ourselves, as faith is given by the Holy Spirit. So, is the Christian claim of "free will" actually a claim that we are mightier than God? If so, is that what we really believe, and if not, must we conclude that every aspect of our life, which would be knowable before it happens by an omniscient God, and shapeable by an omnipresent, omnipotent God, must conform to an undefeatable Plan? Is everything in life pre-determined by an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing God, and choice is actually an illusion?
Looking for a logical discussion based on the above, or, if you wish to present scriptural references, I'd be interested in how you think they trump the above logic.
No axe to grind here, just something I'm interested in, it in no way shapes my own faith, I'm just posting a chat, and would be interested in your thoughts.
Been wrestling with this one for years. Christians like to talk about free will, that God always gives a choice, but I struggle with that because of the following assumptions:
1) God is infallible, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent
2) God has a plan or purpose for his creation
3) The Holy Spirit determines who receives the gifts of the spirit, one of which is Faith
4) We are saved through Faith alone.
(Can provide biblical references, but would assume most people jumping into this conversation would be aware of these precepts).
If the above is true, then Choice would allow you to thwart God's plan. If Choice is not possible, then it is impossible for us to save ourselves, as faith is given by the Holy Spirit. So, is the Christian claim of "free will" actually a claim that we are mightier than God? If so, is that what we really believe, and if not, must we conclude that every aspect of our life, which would be knowable before it happens by an omniscient God, and shapeable by an omnipresent, omnipotent God, must conform to an undefeatable Plan? Is everything in life pre-determined by an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing God, and choice is actually an illusion?
Looking for a logical discussion based on the above, or, if you wish to present scriptural references, I'd be interested in how you think they trump the above logic.
No axe to grind here, just something I'm interested in, it in no way shapes my own faith, I'm just posting a chat, and would be interested in your thoughts.