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Christianity: Free Will, or Pre-Determination?

I think there is a difference between a 'plan' and 'absolute foreknowledge'. From my viewpoint. I see a contradiction between having all omni's attached to one point, since I see absolute knowledge is mutually exclusive with absolute power.

Interesting...why?
 
Interesting...why?

If you know everything you are going to do, precisely, you do not have the power to change it. If you change what you were going to do because you have the power, that makes your knowledge wrong... and if it was wrong, you don't know everything.
 
The notion of predestination actually undermines Jehovah’s wisdom, for it implies that he cannot control his ability to look into the future....

I've heard God's omniscient powers explained like this...if you had a singing voice of unparalleled beauty, would you then have no choice but to sing all the time? Of course not...the notion is absurd...just as God has the ability to foreknow the future, he does not use it all the time...to do so might infringe upon our own free will, a precious gift that Jehovah will never revoke...Deuteronomy 30:19, 20

Interesting thought...but I read it differently than you. Here's the verse you quoted:

19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

The word choose is used, but the choice God presents is similar to the choice presented in a shotgun marriage arrangement...hehe... It's either do as he says, or die, and if you choose life, that includes obeying him. Again, not a great testament to freewill. And, had they chosen death, what would that have said about God's plan? Was it thwarted? Are we, as humans, that powerful? Or, would we say "Well, that was God's plan all along", in which case did they choose death, or was it predetermined?

I feel like it's one or the other...what's the third option I'm missing?

I disagree that predetermination undermines God's wisdom. If you can control millions of people over hundreds of thousands of years to come to a specific, desired, result, I think you get to put Wisdom on the resume... ;)
 
If you know everything you are going to do, precisely, you do not have the power to change it. If you change what you were going to do because you have the power, that makes your knowledge wrong... and if it was wrong, you don't know everything.

Hmm...another possibility, though. When making a plan, you can see all the possible outcomes, given all the possible variables, because you are all knowing, so you can choose the best path to achieve the desired results, and being all powerful allows you to shape circumstances to ensure that plan is executed properly, regardless of what it takes to get it done...
 
Interesting thought...but I read it differently than you. Here's the verse you quoted:

19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

The word choose is used, but the choice God presents is similar to the choice presented in a shotgun marriage arrangement...hehe... It's either do as he says, or die, and if you choose life, that includes obeying him. Again, not a great testament to freewill. And, had they chosen death, what would that have said about God's plan? Was it thwarted? Are we, as humans, that powerful? Or, would we say "Well, that was God's plan all along", in which case did they choose death, or was it predetermined?

I feel like it's one or the other...what's the third option I'm missing?

I disagree that predetermination undermines God's wisdom. If you can control millions of people over hundreds of thousands of years to come to a specific, desired, result, I think you get to put Wisdom on the resume... ;)

There has always been a conflict between good and evil, ever since Satan rebelled and took the first human pair along with him...there is no 3rd option with God...you're either for Him or against Him...that choice is prevalent throughout the Bible...

Whether man wants to admit it or not, deep down we know it to be a fact...novels, movies, plays...most of our creative skills revolve around it...
 
Hmm...another possibility, though. When making a plan, you can see all the possible outcomes, given all the possible variables, because you are all knowing, so you can choose the best path to achieve the desired results, and being all powerful allows you to shape circumstances to ensure that plan is executed properly, regardless of what it takes to get it done...

Yet.. you still can not do other than what you were going to do. That takes away the absolute power, and that also takes away the omniscient entities free will. They can do nothing other than what they are going to do.
 
There has always been a conflict between good and evil, ever since Satan rebelled and took the first human pair along with him...there is no 3rd option with God...you're either for Him or against Him...that choice is prevalent throughout the Bible...

Whether man wants to admit it or not, deep down we know it to be a fact...novels, movies, plays...most of our creative skills revolve around it...

Ok, so, then how do you reconcile the fact that faith is a gift of the Spirit, not a decision we make ourselves? I mean, I suppose you could say that, if given the gift of faith, we can choose to ignore it, ignoring the folks who did *not* receive the gift of faith, and therefore cannot choose to be a Christian...but then that's saying our own will to be disobedient is stronger than the Holy Spirit's ability to infuse us with faith... That feels a bit arrogant to me...
 
Yet.. you still can not do other than what you were going to do. That takes away the absolute power, and that also takes away the omniscient entities free will. They can do nothing other than what they are going to do.

I'm not sure that's implied... God's plan, presumably, would be based on a desired outcome...if I wanted to build a car, I am free to start chopping down a tree, but so long as I want to build a car I will probably choose not to. So, is the desired outcome the removal of free will? Or is it the culmination of it?
 
Ok, so, then how do you reconcile the fact that faith is a gift of the Spirit, not a decision we make ourselves? I mean, I suppose you could say that, if given the gift of faith, we can choose to ignore it, ignoring the folks who did *not* receive the gift of faith, and therefore cannot choose to be a Christian...but then that's saying our own will to be disobedient is stronger than the Holy Spirit's ability to infuse us with faith... That feels a bit arrogant to me...

That is true, we can either accept it or reject it, just as many have done in the past...God draws those with the right heart condition...

"No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day." John 6:44

The Bible compares us to a potter's clay in the hands of the potter...do we see ourselves as soft clay in God’s hands, willing to be molded into a vessel that is desirable in His eyes or are we merely hardened, useless clay? Useless clay gets thrown aside...

“Look! As the clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand.”Jer. 18:6
 
That's nice...it makes perfect sense to me, since God is all powerful and can do anything He wants or not, if He so desires...nothing is impossible with God...
If that is truly the case, then your god is inconsistent. In which case, applying any descriptions to that god utterly fail.

E.g. an inconsistent god cannot be "benevolent," because that god could murder millions of children, in the most painful way imaginable, yet still be "benevolent" because it has no requirement to be consistent.

To put it in terms of this debate: You are saying that God knows all, yet God does not know all. He is both omnipotent and not-omnipotent, therefore he is omnipotent. That's just a straight-up contradiction.

You might want to be more careful with the implications of your statements and/or beliefs.
 
I'm not sure that's implied... God's plan, presumably, would be based on a desired outcome...if I wanted to build a car, I am free to start chopping down a tree, but so long as I want to build a car I will probably choose not to. So, is the desired outcome the removal of free will? Or is it the culmination of it?

When it comes to God's abilities and desires, it doesn't matter. The absolute foreknowledge locks God into specific actions for himself. That eliminates both absolute power and free will. Among the things that get locked into place is the illusion of a goal. Did God 'choose' that goal, or was god locked into that goal because of the absolute foreknowledge? The conundrum opens up some contradictions and paradoxes.
 
If that is truly the case, then your god is inconsistent. In which case, applying any descriptions to that god utterly fail.

E.g. an inconsistent god cannot be "benevolent," because that god could murder millions of children, in the most painful way imaginable, yet still be "benevolent" because it has no requirement to be consistent.

To put it in terms of this debate: You are saying that God knows all, yet God does not know all. He is both omnipotent and not-omnipotent, therefore he is omnipotent. That's just a straight-up contradiction.

You might want to be more careful with the implications of your statements and/or beliefs.

As I stated earlier, nothing is impossible with God...you might wanna be careful of putting Him in a small, little box of human terms and understanding with the implications of your statements and/or beliefs...
 
When it comes to God's abilities and desires, it doesn't matter. The absolute foreknowledge locks God into specific actions for himself. That eliminates both absolute power and free will. Among the things that get locked into place is the illusion of a goal. Did God 'choose' that goal, or was god locked into that goal because of the absolute foreknowledge? The conundrum opens up some contradictions and paradoxes.

:) Awesome. I mean, I see it differently and come to a different conclusion, but I dig the mind maze. Given that neither of us can prove our logic, it's pretty harmless debate...but it's fun to tip toe through the unknowable. I still say the catalyst was a choice on desired outcome, and the action was a choice to arrive at that desired outcome. If God wanted the world to be a constant orgy, for example, his actions would be very different from what they have been.

Thanks for the chat, homie! :)
 
As I stated earlier, nothing is impossible with God...you might wanna be careful of putting Him in a small, little box of human terms and understanding with the implications of your statements and/or beliefs...

Oh, I, in no way, claim to be right, and I'm not trying to put him in any kind of box. The answer to this is in no way critical to my faith, I'm an imperfect human being, all I can do is my best to understand, and continue to have faith. Thankfully that's enough. But it is fun to try to wrap your head around the unknowable, and try to apply logic to the variables presented. I'm not preaching, simply engaging in what if's.

But I do think that the idea of freewill is potentially an arrogant one, if one believes, as you say, nothing is impossible with God. He has the power to do what I'm saying, I'm sure we can agree on that. I guess the only question is, would he? Is our individual freewill more important than his plan for eternity? Would an infallible God need to change his plan every single time his creation exercised their freewill?

To use a rather vulgar expression, you can't suck and blow at the same time. One has to be true, not both. At least, that's how I see it, from my limited human mind. :)


EDIT: Ooops, I just saw that post wasn't aimed at me. :)
 
I think some are trying to apply simple science, as we know it, to God, and that is a real problem...there are certain things we attempt to apply to God and we just can't...they are past human understanding or science...that is where faith comes in...

su·per·nat·u·ral
ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/Submit
adjective
1.
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
"a supernatural being"
synonyms: paranormal, psychic, magic, magical, occult, mystic, mystical, superhuman, supernormal;

https://www.google.com/search?q=sup...0j69i57j0l2.6020j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
 
That is true, we can either accept it or reject it, just as many have done in the past...God draws those with the right heart condition...

"No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day." John 6:44

The Bible compares us to a potter's clay in the hands of the potter...do we see ourselves as soft clay in God’s hands, willing to be molded into a vessel that is desirable in His eyes or are we merely hardened, useless clay? Useless clay gets thrown aside...

“Look! As the clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand.”Jer. 18:6

So, you think we do have the ability to thwart the will of God? That if the Holy Spirt selects us to be given the gift of faith, we are powerful enough to reject that? I tend to think not...which is kind of supported in the whole clay in the hand of the potter reference. I'm not aware of "useless clay" in the pottery world...but I do believe that an all powerful God could make useless clay into useful clay...I mean, he turned water into wine, soo... ;)
 
I think some are trying to apply simple science, as we know it, to God, and that is a real problem...there are certain things we attempt to apply to God and we just can't...they are past human understanding or science...that is where faith comes in...

su·per·nat·u·ral
ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/Submit
adjective
1.
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
"a supernatural being"
synonyms: paranormal, psychic, magic, magical, occult, mystic, mystical, superhuman, supernormal;

https://www.google.com/search?q=sup...0j69i57j0l2.6020j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

For sure. This is just an interesting discussion for me, I don't think I'm going to solve the mysteries of the universe today. ;) We can endeavor to understand, as Christians, so long as we continue to have faith, the only prerequisite for salvation. In fact, given the personality of Christ in the New Testament, I think he'd approve, if he spent a fair amount of time chuckling at our attempts to understand what we cannot.
 
So, you think we do have the ability to thwart the will of God? That if the Holy Spirt selects us to be given the gift of faith, we are powerful enough to reject that? I tend to think not...which is kind of supported in the whole clay in the hand of the potter reference. I'm not aware of "useless clay" in the pottery world...but I do believe that an all powerful God could make useless clay into useful clay...I mean, he turned water into wine, soo... ;)

Sure, we can work against God and His holy spirit..Satan has done so for centuries now, but that doesn't deter His will from being accomplished...He works with those who are responsive/obedient...He doesn't force anyone to be either...that is where free will comes into play...
 
Sure, we can work against God and His holy spirit..Satan has done so for centuries now, but that doesn't deter His will from being accomplished...He works with those who are responsive/obedient...He doesn't force anyone to be either...that is where free will comes into play...

So if he can only work with those who are responsive/obedient, then must we assume that he has limitations?

Satan is not a human, so that's a bit of a difficult analogy...I don't know what the relationship between God and his angels is about. I do know that God, in every recorded conflict with Satan, wins...

Also...regarding the point about God not forcing anyone to do anything...ok...but, coming at it from a different angle, if faith only comes from the Holy Spirit as a gift, one that is not given to anyone, is he giving a choice to those he does not call? They cannot become a Christian unless they have faith, which comes at the discretion of the Holy Spirit. You cannot choose to be a Christian. So, again, I'm still left unconvinced of the scope or even existence of freewill.

(By the way, Elvira, I'm enjoying talking to you on this, and I hope you are looking at this as just a conversation. If I'm offending you, please let me know, or feel free to drop out, this isn't meant to be a take-no-prisoners debate, I'm just enjoying riffing with you, hope that's cool)
 
So if he can only work with those who are responsive/obedient, then must we assume that he has limitations?

Satan is not a human, so that's a bit of a difficult analogy...I don't know what the relationship between God and his angels is about. I do know that God, in every recorded conflict with Satan, wins...

Also...regarding the point about God not forcing anyone to do anything...ok...but, coming at it from a different angle, if faith only comes from the Holy Spirit as a gift, one that is not given to anyone, is he giving a choice to those he does not call? They cannot become a Christian unless they have faith, which comes at the discretion of the Holy Spirit. You cannot choose to be a Christian. So, again, I'm still left unconvinced of the scope or even existence of freewill.

(By the way, Elvira, I'm enjoying talking to you on this, and I hope you are looking at this as just a conversation. If I'm offending you, please let me know, or feel free to drop out, this isn't meant to be a take-no-prisoners debate, I'm just enjoying riffing with you, hope that's cool)

No, I don't think God has limitations, He merely chooses not to act or react at times, respecting the fact that He did create us with free will...there's a difference...He can, but He doesn't...just like He could have destroyed Satan, along with Adam and Eve at the very beginning, but He didn't...His desire was to give mankind a chance, regardless of what or who rebelled against Him, among other things...

OK, so Satan is a spirit creature...how about man and all the things he has done down through the ages to thwart God's will being accomplished, intentionally as well as unintentionally...

We have to be receptive to God's calling us and that is an ongoing process..the result of not being receptive is the fact that some fall away, even after they become Christians...the Bible speaks of that also, it's likened it to a dog returning to its vomit...it happens...God does not forsake us, we forsake Him...

No offense taken, Nate...I enjoy talking to you as well...you're always respectful...presentation is everything, even when we disagree...
 
What I was trying to say is, if we (people) evolved, did we all evolve at the same rate and here we are? I get the various ages, stone, bronze, industrial, people caused those by experimentation and discovery and recording for the future. Using a food analogy, were all the cookies done at the same time or are there some in different states of evolution, individual ingredients, partially mixed batter and so on. We just seem to be, with no earlier forms of us in the pipeline. Are we stil evolving or is it more adapting?

Speaking about things such as stone age or bonze is talking about social evolution. On that subject the answer is no, we did not all advance at the same rate. For example the aborigenes of tasmania had still not invented fire by the time captain cook first landed.

Speaking of biologica; evolution which is what the OP was refering to then the answer is more or less yes. Nature did not just produce man but a few variants such as cro-magnon of which man was the eventual successor.

Ypur last statement is somewhat of a tautology. evoving is adapting.
 
lol...first, thanks, Soy, for not blowing it up, and staying within the boundaries of the chat. I promise, I won't try to convert you. ;)

So, I get what you're saying, but evolution is chaotic, a series of random mutations, with the most beneficial mutations leading to survival and shaping of the species, but disconnected from any kind of directed plan (speaking strictly from my understanding of the scientific definition of evolution, without doing a quick Google to make sure, but I think I'm mostly right, or at least right enough for this discussion). God, on the other hand, has stated he has a specific plan in mind, and that we are a part of it. He has also said he has a plan for each and every one of us individually.

If we say he has the means to do anything - as Elvira pointed out, "nothing is impossible for God", then the only thing we need to determine is IF God would use his power to direct us to execute his plan, or if we, as humans, have the power to thwart his plan by choosing to do what we want to do instead.

God has a specific plan for each and every one of us individually. ???? Where did you read that?

The closest i can think of is,
Ephesians 4:11:12
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up.

So back to the evolution analogy. It does not require every member of the species to evolve only that enough do to continue the species. Or in other words until god makes you a prophet you can sin as you please.

Unfortuanately elvira as far as i can see argues by cliche. There is no sense in her words just conviction.
 
No, I don't think God has limitations, He merely chooses not to act or react at times, respecting the fact that He did create us with free will...there's a difference...He can, but He doesn't...just like He could have destroyed Satan, along with Adam and Eve at the very beginning, but He didn't...His desire was to give mankind a chance, regardless of what or who rebelled against Him, among other things...

OK, so Satan is a spirit creature...how about man and all the things he has done down through the ages to thwart God's will being accomplished, intentionally as well as unintentionally...

We have to be receptive to God's calling us and that is an ongoing process..the result of not being receptive is the fact that some fall away, even after they become Christians...the Bible speaks of that also, it's likened it to a dog returning to its vomit...it happens...God does not forsake us, we forsake Him...

No offense taken, Nate...I enjoy talking to you as well...you're always respectful...presentation is everything, even when we disagree...

Right on, good. I know religion can be a touchy subject, and it can get personal very quickly. Just give me the benefit of the doubt that I'm not trying to be a jerk, no matter how feisty I get in debate mode, and we'll be all good... ;) :)

I personally don't think humans can thwart God's will, so I look at your analogy a little differently. Again, see elsewhere where I've said that things can look negative at the time, but in hindsight were critical to accomplishing something positive. I tend to think that any plan God has in mind is far too complicated for us to understand. Does Satan serve a purpose? If not, why keep him around? Do bad situations create a ripple effect leading to something positive? If not, why allow bad situations to happen? Do we actually work against God's plan, or our perceived contrary activities further it in some way we cannot understand?

Is it possible that the perception of choice is more for our comfort than a reflection of reality? Freewill goes against so much of what we see in the Bible...there is much more on obedience and ownership (we are God's people, God's creation - God's property)... We can't even save ourselves. How does freewill serve God's plan?
 
Ok, but if God knew beforehand which way I'd jump, before I was ever born, did I make that choice? More specifically, is it possible for me to jump in a *different* direction than the one God knew I would before I was born? If not, did I actually have a choice? If so, doesn't that imply either that God makes mistakes, or that our will is greater than God's?

And how do you think this plays into his plan? Will reference Isaiah 46:3-11, so as not to confuse with the whole "God has a plan for each of us" sentiment, I'm talking about God's plan in totality. If it's purely freewill, could we not defeat God's plan any time we wanted? Does that imply we are mightier than God?

Finally, if faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and we are only saved by grace, through faith, is inclusion in Heaven, and, in fact, Christianity itself, actually a decision on our part?



I'm not Calvinist.

I also don't claim to have all the answers. I believe that a being who is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and eternal is beyond mortal comprehension to a large degree.

Without going into forty-eleven bits of scripture or trying to explain five decades of thought processes on the matter, I believe God has a plan for each person but each person has free will to do otherwise. Yet God knows what we actually will do.... foreknowledge does not change agency however, as seeing a thing does not mean you made that thing happen.

When you look out a window and see a child jump, and in that moment predict his landing site as a mud puddle, your observation does not alter the agency of the child in choosing to puddle-stomp. Perhaps you let the child go outside, knowing there were puddles and knowing kids are prone to puddle-stomping, but told him not to. This doesn't change the child's exercise in free will. It just means you let them choose.

I for one am glad not to be a robot running a pre-set program, even if it means I get some mud on me at times, even if sometimes the mud was from someone else's splashing.
 
As I stated earlier, nothing is impossible with God...you might wanna be careful of putting Him in a small, little box of human terms and understanding with the implications of your statements and/or beliefs...
This is not about putting him into a box. It's not even really saying anything about the deity. It is simply a recognition of the basic logical consequences of saying "everything is possible."

To wit: Declaring that "God is benevolent" is putting God in a human box. You're insisting that God meets -- or is limited by -- the human conception of "benevolence." How is that justified? It isn't, because you are putting your God in a small, little box of human terms and understanding.

Similarly, "humans can't understand God" cuts both ways. If I can't understand him, neither can you; and we are back at an inability to ascribe any properties to the deity. If humans cannot develop a consistent understanding of God, then that applies to all humans, and has the same consequences for humans.

Fortunately, it is logically possible for an omnipotent deity to know the future, without suspending free will. That is, if the deity and formulation of omnipotence are both logically valid.

By the way, none of what I'm saying is new to theologians. Quite a few are familiar with the problems of ascribing omnipotence and omniscience to a deity.
 
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