My Christian Beliefs[W:205]

Re: My Christian Beliefs

LesGovt said:

Far from it. I agree with every verse that you have quoted. On the third from the bottom, I am not perfect as I own some possessions. My guess is you own some too. We give generously to the poor since we do not believe in welfare. Even communists have possessions. Here are some photos of reported Russian homes. https://www.google.com/search?q=typical+russian+home&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=BqmkHN_Udv4KnM%253A%252Ce5ETQrkcJyv35M%252C_&usg=__rGK6ageihp-xJjuM6Q9hQqQ7MYA%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyic6nsLrYAhVC1IMKHVkYCtIQ9QEILzAD#imgrc=BqmkHN_Udv4KnM: They must be hypocrites to you, heh?

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"We give generously to the poor since we do not believe in welfare." This could be the most ironic sentence i've ever seen. Giving to the poor is welfare, that follows automatically from the meaning of the word.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

LesGovt said:

No, I had a good idea of what liberation theology was and I certainly know what communism is. As for Judaism and Islam, it matters not what I believe. What matters is what the Bible says. I have said this many times now, but I will repeat it here yet again, I will not discuss other religions. I will discuss what the Bible says. You can accept it or deny it. I am not into the philosophy of moral relativism. I stand for something as I do not want to fall for just anything. That is counter to today's society and I know that. The good news is that the slings and arrows of my adversaries can do no harm to me. When you have God on your side, who can be against you? May you find peace in your life.

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Well it may surprise you to know that Jewish people use much of the same scripture.

I'm not sure why you think moral relativism has any bearing here.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

Absentglare said:

"We give generously to the poor since we do not believe in welfare." This could be the most ironic sentence i've ever seen. Giving to the poor is welfare, that follows automatically from the meaning of the word.

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I see your point, but I was using welfare in the sense of government welfare. I prefer to use private charity.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

Apostle of Marx said:

Yeah, but I'm not a Christian.

If you agree with all those things, how can you defend capitalism?

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Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:24) - I am rich in many ways, but not in wealth, but I have earned enough to feed, clothe, and house my family. So, this one doesn't apply to me.

No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. (Matthew 6:24) - I only have one master and it is not money. So, this one doesn't apply to me.

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. (1 Timothy 6:10 ) - I totally agree that money is the root of all kinds of evil and that is why I don't let money run my life. - So, this one doesn't apply to me.

Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker (Proverbs 14:31) I have never oppressed anyone. So, this one doesn't apply to me.

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21 ) - I follow Jesus even though I have not sold everything. So, this one doesn't apply to me.

Rich people who see a brother or sister in need, yet close their hearts against them, cannot claim that they love God. (1 John 3:17) - I have talked here about hearing from the Holy Spirit about helping people in need and I have worked for years at our church's food pantry and again, I am not rich. So, this one doesn't apply to me.

None of you should be looking out for your own interests, but for the interests of others. (1 Corinthians 10:24) - I am probably not perfect in this one as I do look out for my family while looking out for the interests of others. So, this one doesn't apply to me.

I appreciate capitalism for what it does. It gives people opportunity to make a living to support their family. The problem with socialism and communism is that it takes away the incentive to work and to be the best that you can be. Besides, I am worth more than most in the workplace.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

Absentglare said:

Well it may surprise you to know that Jewish people use much of the same scripture.

I'm not sure why you think moral relativism has any bearing here.

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Why do you mention the Jewish people. I said nothing about them. As for moral relativism, well, some can see it and some cannot.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

I see that I have four more postings to respond to or ignore. I am going to go eat supper and watch a little TV with my wife. I have spent far too much time here today. I might return later tonight or maybe tomorrow. Have a pleasant evening everyone. May God bless.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

LesGovt said:

But I find it fun asking you questions. Turn about is fair play. From your reading of the scripture, does the scripture say no?

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It does, but getting you to say it was like pulling teeth. Why, I have no idea.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

It is not about whether these bible quotes apply to you, it's whether they apply to capitalism and they do, which is what you support. "You cannot serve both God and mammon." This is decidedly anti-capitalist. "None of you should be looking out for your own interests, but for the interests of others." What is capitalism if not the serving of your own interests?

LesGovt said:

I appreciate capitalism for what it does. It gives people opportunity to make a living to support their family.

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Capitalism forces you into a compulsive social relationship in which you must have your labour exploited in order to survive. If it provides you with any opportunity at all it is the opportunity for you not be paid the full value of your labour. It gives you the opportunity to make other people rich on the back of your work.

The problem with socialism and communism is that it takes away the incentive to work and to be the best that you can be.

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Communism is the social relationship in which the production of our means of survival become a social activity rather than exploited labour. Work as you understand it is abolished in favour of social activity. You don't need incentive to participate in social activity, you are producing the society in which you live for yourself and for your community. Your labour is not exploited and you are not confined to the drudgery of work.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

<alt>doxygen said:

Interesting link. Seems a pretty good list of the requirements for fundamentalist, pre-trib rapture Christians.

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I thought so... this guy does regular blogs in addition to his commentary on Revelation and other articles on his website... I was raised a WELS Lutheran and have stuck to it for the most part, but this website opened my eyes about pre-tribulation rapture theology (Lutherans are taught amillennialism) and as I've further studied the Bible, I've found the pre-tribulation viewpoint to be more convincing. I've also never heard the term Nephilim before reading this guy's website (I as a WELS Lutheran was taught the Sons of Seth theory), but again, after further personal study, I've been convinced away from that old viewpoint also. I'd say even if one doesn't agree with the guy on some of his views, he seems like a true Christian and seems pretty well informed.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

LesGovt said:

I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I believe in John 3:16, which says, "[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." When it comes to religion, there are several religions that have a god. They can all be wrong in what they believe, but, if any are correct, only one can be correct. I know my Christian faith is the correct one. The fact that I know God exists upsets some people and that is okay with me. I have stated why I know God exists, but my reasons are unacceptable to some. That too is okay.

Can I prove that God exists? To many, I cannot. I have previously written here about how I know. The short version of the reasons are:

1. I look around and see the complexity of the universe and everything in it and it is clear to me that there is a designer. This reason is unacceptable to some. The details of the complexities are so great that randomness could never explain the details. Nor could nature explain it.
2. God has walked with me much of my life even when I was an Agnostic. Too many blessings have come to me that only God can provide. Some would say that personal experiences are not proof that God exists. They are correct. I know the do because they happened to me.
3. The Holy Spirit has talked to me on multiple times. He tells me when I should help others in very specific and personal ways.

Now, I have had two threads that have been closed because the discussion had become too personal. Well, this one may become too personal for some and may be cancelled by the Mods, but not because of me. I will not argue my beliefs. People can accept them or reject them.

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I think G-d has two sheep pens, John 10:16 says so.... the words you write were for the Gentiles. But please don't forget that G-d put upon the Jews a blinding. If you see His plan in full circle you understand why.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

vesper said:

I think G-d has two sheep pens, John 10:16 says so.... the words you write were for the Gentiles. But please don't forget that G-d put upon the Jews a blinding. If you see His plan in full circle you understand why.

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Please tell me more about the blinding. I think I may have missed that part.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

Apostle of Marx said:

It is not about whether these bible quotes apply to you, it's whether they apply to capitalism and they do, which is what you support. "You cannot serve both God and mammon." This is decidedly anti-capitalist. "None of you should be looking out for your own interests, but for the interests of others." What is capitalism if not the serving of your own interests?

Capitalism forces you into a compulsive social relationship in which you must have your labour exploited in order to survive. If it provides you with any opportunity at all it is the opportunity for you not be paid the full value of your labour. It gives you the opportunity to make other people rich on the back of your work.

Communism is the social relationship in which the production of our means of survival become a social activity rather than exploited labour. Work as you understand it is abolished in favour of social activity. You don't need incentive to participate in social activity, you are producing the society in which you live for yourself and for your community. Your labour is not exploited and you are not confined to the drudgery of work.

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I hope you will understand that I do not agree with anything you have said here and nor will I ever. My labor was never exploited. I offered my service to a variety of companies and they in return paid me more than I ever thought that I would be paid. There was never anything compulsive about it. In a communist state, would work be required or could everyone lie on the beach eating bon bons? Also, my work was never drudgery. I enjoyed what I did.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

zyzygy said:

It does, but getting you to say it was like pulling teeth. Why, I have no idea.

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It does? Very good, but would you leave my teeth alone.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

Now, I must leave again as I need to go to the grocery store to pick up my daily bread and I pray that I will not trespass on anyone while there.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

LesGovt said:

I hope you will understand that I do not agree with anything you have said here and nor will I ever. My labor was never exploited. I offered my service to a variety of companies and they in return paid me more than I ever thought that I would be paid. There was never anything compulsive about it.

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Well, it's not really question of you agreeing with me. What I'm saying is true whether you agree with me or not.

Unless you're independently wealthy, if you don't work, you'd die. So your choice is work or die. That's not really a choice is it? Therefore you're forced to work by not wanting to die.

If your labour wasn't exploited, then you would be paid for the full value of it. Id on't know what you do, but imagine you baked cakes.

A small cake business hires a worker to bake cakes for $7.50ph
Worker bakes 2 bespoke cakes every 60 minutes.
The value of the ingredients per cake is $5 (=$10 per hour)
Each cake is sold for $20 = $40 per hour.
40-10 = $30. The worker, who baked the cake using their physical labour gets $7.50 for creating $30 of value. Where does the remaining $23.50 go?

It doesn't go to you, even though you're the one who created the value. It goes to your boss who used the fact you need to work in order to take value from your labour. That's theft.

In a communist state, would work be required or could everyone lie on the beach eating bon bons?

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Well, how would bon-bons be made to eat if everyone was at the beach? If people want bon-bons at the beach then they need to organise their production.

A communist state is a contradiction in terms, but work would be social. You would go and do socially necessary labour for a few hours a week. Let's say working in a bakery. You produce bread. Your wife does her socially useful work in the butchers. Your son, he works in the power station for 10 hours a week. Your neighbour does a job, your other neighbour does a job and so on and so on around the world. In return for everyone's contribution, everyone is able to access the things they need to exist. It's that simple.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

Apostle of Marx said:

Well, it's not really question of you agreeing with me. What I'm saying is true whether you agree with me or not.

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Les: Really? If I said you were full of it, you would disagree, but you would be wrong.

Apostle of Marx said:

Unless you're independently wealthy, if you don't work, you'd die. So your choice is work or die. That's not really a choice is it? Therefore you're forced to work by not wanting to die.

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Apostle of Marx said:

Could you please name a communist country where everyone can just sit around and not work?

If your labour wasn't exploited, then you would be paid for the full value of it. Id on't know what you do, but imagine you baked cakes.

A small cake business hires a worker to bake cakes for $7.50ph
Worker bakes 2 bespoke cakes every 60 minutes.
The value of the ingredients per cake is $5 (=$10 per hour)
Each cake is sold for $20 = $40 per hour.
40-10 = $30. The worker, who baked the cake using their physical labour gets $7.50 for creating $30 of value. Where does the remaining $23.50 go?

It doesn't go to you, even though you're the one who created the value. It goes to your boss who used the fact you need to work in order to take value from your labour. That's theft.

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But why would I bake cakes? Do I have to bake cakes for a measly $7.50 per hour?

Apostle of Marx said:

If people want bon-bons at the beach then they need to organise their production.

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Oh, so people do have to work and work for next to nothing. Great incentive, heh?

Apostle of Marx said:

A communist state is a contradiction in terms, but work would be social. You would go and do socially necessary labour for a few hours a week. Let's say working in a bakery. You produce bread. Your wife does her socially useful work in the butchers. Your son, he works in the power station for 10 hours a week. Your neighbour does a job, your other neighbour does a job and so on and so on around the world. In return for everyone's contribution, everyone is able to access the things they need to exist. It's that simple.

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I used to work for a bakery. The bakery produced bread. My wife worked for a home nursing company. My son worked at the same home nursing company running their networks, my neighbors are retired. All of this wonderful work for peanuts because of somebody thought communism was better than capitalism. Utopia does not exist. Communism and socialism strip the people from incentive to do well. If I produce 30 cakes in 60 minutes, I get paid the same as the bum who produces on 2. Karl Marx was an idiot. Now, that is just my opinion, but if you expect to sell this to anyone, I suggest you get off this thread and go to one about economics... failed economics.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

Apostle of Marx said:

Then you hate Christ.

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All those quotes are addressing greed not wealth. If wealth was an issue for God, then He wouldn't have made it the most commonly presented evidence of being blessed. Those verse are all about what you should be doing with your wealth, not about being wealthy.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

faithful_servant said:

All those quotes are addressing greed not wealth. If wealth was an issue for God, then He wouldn't have made it the most commonly presented evidence of being blessed. Those verse are all about what you should be doing with your wealth, not about being wealthy.

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Exactly...we all have to have money to survive in this world so it is not money that is the root of all evil but it's the LOVE of money...big difference...

Re: My Christian Beliefs

LesGovt said:

But why would I bake cakes? Do I have to bake cakes for a measly $7.50 per hour?

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I used it as an example. It doesn't matter what the job is, the principle is the same.

Oh, so people do have to work and work for next to nothing. Great incentive, heh?

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Well people have to do labour because otherwise we wouldn't be able to exist. Human beings produce the things they need to survive. You understand that right? The difference between communism and capitalism is that in communism labour is a social activity that isn't mediated by wages. You do labour because it's useful and allows you to live fully, not because you need to accumulate money in order to survive.

I used to work for a bakery. The bakery produced bread. My wife worked for a home nursing company. My son worked at the same home nursing company running their networks, my neighbors are retired. All of this wonderful work for peanuts because of somebody thought communism was better than capitalism. Utopia does not exist. Communism and socialism strip the people from incentive to do well. If I produce 30 cakes in 60 minutes, I get paid the same as the bum who produces on 2. Karl Marx was an idiot. Now, that is just my opinion, but if you expect to sell this to anyone, I suggest you get off this thread and go to one about economics... failed economics.

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Why do you need an incentive to be useful? Are you lazy? You don't sound lazy. You sound like a very hard working person.

I'm not talking about a utopia either, I'm merely talking about a social relationship in which labour is a social activity. In a communist society money doesn't exist. You don't get paid for your labour. The return you get for being useful is the product of everyone else's usefulness.

If you take a household for example, everyone has a role, right? Everyone's separate roles accumulate into a collective whole that benefits everyone. It's the same on a transcontinental level. The individual sum of your role combined into a whole means that everything a human needs/wants is produced.

The concept of "doing well" is a bizarre one. What does "doing well" even mean? Do you mean whether you have bought cars, clothes and houses? To have more money than your neighbour? Is this what "doing well" means? Surely the point of human existence is to live fully and happily. Is this what Jesus taught? Not to have pride, that to serve money you cannot serve God? Your human existence should be defined by your experience of life, not your success at accumulate inanimate objects.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

faithful_servant said:

All those quotes are addressing greed not wealth. If wealth was an issue for God, then He wouldn't have made it the most commonly presented evidence of being blessed. Those verse are all about what you should be doing with your wealth, not about being wealthy.

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"You cannot serve both God and money."

If wealth is your objective, then you cannot love God.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

Apostle of Marx said:

I used it as an example. It doesn't matter what the job is, the principle is the same.

Well people have to do labour because otherwise we wouldn't be able to exist. Human beings produce the things they need to survive. You understand that right? The difference between communism and capitalism is that in communism labour is a social activity that isn't mediated by wages. You do labour because it's useful and allows you to live fully, not because you need to accumulate money in order to survive.

Why do you need an incentive to be useful? Are you lazy? You don't sound lazy. You sound like a very hard working person.

I'm not talking about a utopia either, I'm merely talking about a social relationship in which labour is a social activity. In a communist society money doesn't exist. You don't get paid for your labour. The return you get for being useful is the product of everyone else's usefulness.

If you take a household for example, everyone has a role, right? Everyone's separate roles accumulate into a collective whole that benefits everyone. It's the same on a transcontinental level. The individual sum of your role combined into a whole means that everything a human needs/wants is produced.

The concept of "doing well" is a bizarre one. What does "doing well" even mean? Do you mean whether you have bought cars, clothes and houses? To have more money than your neighbour? Is this what "doing well" means? Surely the point of human existence is to live fully and happily. Is this what Jesus taught? Not to have pride, that to serve money you cannot serve God? Your human existence should be defined by your experience of life, not your success at accumulate inanimate objects.

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I knew you were providing an example. Can I work in the same bakery as the one making $7.50/hour can I make more than that amount? Is your answer yes, as long as more cakes are baked? If I am the only one that produces extra cakes, do I share that income with the other bakers or do I get to keep it. If everyone is satisfied at $7.50 an hour and my profession is baking and this is the only bakery in town, do I need to move to find other workers of my mind-set or should I just coast along with everyone else and just tune-in, turn-out, and drop-out?

Re: My Christian Beliefs

I think my thread got hijacked. This thread is about my Christian beliefs and not economics. Go away Communist! Start your own thread.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

LesGovt said:

I knew you were providing an example. Can I work in the same bakery as the one making $7.50/hour can I make more than that amount? Is your answer yes, as long as more cakes are baked? If I am the only one that produces extra cakes, do I share that income with the other bakers or do I get to keep it. If everyone is satisfied at $7.50 an hour and my profession is baking and this is the only bakery in town, do I need to move to find other workers of my mind-set or should I just coast along with everyone else and just tune-in, turn-out, and drop-out?

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I don't think you read what I said.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

Apostle of Marx said:

"You cannot serve both God and money."

If wealth is your objective, then you cannot love God.

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Having money and serving it are not the same thing. When you serve money, you are it's slave. The Biblical model for wealth is for it serve your needs, the needs of those around you and the needs of God's kingdom.

Re: My Christian Beliefs

faithful_servant said:

Having money and serving it are not the same thing. When you serve money, you are it's slave. The Biblical model for wealth is for it serve your needs, the needs of those around you and the needs of God's kingdom.

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Do you think millionaires and billionaires achieved their wealth without being a servant of money? Profit is predicated on the labour of others. To achieve wealth one must create profit. To take the decision to create profit is to serve money.