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Faith vs Works

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Nickyjo

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I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.

Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.

Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.
 
Well, think about it...what was the motive or lack thereof from Adam and Eve's sinning? Was it not a lack of faith in God and His all powerful wisdom to know that was best for them? Is that not why Eve ate of the fruit and Adam followed? With God, faith is everything...if we lack faith in Him, we have nothing...and rightfully so...
 
Don’t understand. If I live a good life, do good to others, don’t cheat my neighbors, etc., why should God care if I don’t believe in him or never heard of him?
 
Nickyjo said:
I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.

Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.

Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.
Click to expand...

I belong to the Baptist Church. We have a different view of all of this. First, for us, Baptism, is not about salvation nor is it necessary, but it is a very good thing. It is about telling the world that we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior and we are not ashamed to say that. Salvation comes from recognizing that one is a sinner, one seeks forgiveness, and accepting God into our hearts. Further, we believe that work alone will not bring salvation. Doing what I said previously and building a relationship with God is what counts most. Doing God's work shows that you love Him and that you desire to be obedient.

Also, Jesus came to earth for the purpose of dying and by doing so, he removes our sins IF, we believe.

"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." - John 3:16-21

Exodus 34:14 says this: "Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

God is with everyone whether they believe or not. That is a choice made by the individual, but He wants us to join Him and have a relationship with Him.
 
LesGovt said:
I belong to the Baptist Church. We have a different view of all of this. First, for us, Baptism, is not about salvation nor is it necessary, but it is a very good thing. It is about telling the world that we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior and we are not ashamed to say that. Salvation comes from recognizing that one is a sinner, one seeks forgiveness, and accepting God into our hearts. Further, we believe that work alone will not bring salvation. Doing what I said previously and building a relationship with God is what counts most. Doing God's work shows that you love Him and that you desire to be obedient.

Also, Jesus came to earth for the purpose of dying and by doing so, he removes our sins IF, we believe.

"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." - John 3:16-21

Exodus 34:14 says this: "Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

God is with everyone whether they believe or not. That is a choice made by the individual, but He wants us to join Him and have a relationship with Him.
Click to expand...

What you have outlined is a beautiful vision of His love and mercy. What I don’t get is the notion that a moral upright non-believer, one who has never heard of or who rejects Jesus in good conscience , is somehow not saved. I remember Jimmy Swaggert saying that all Mother Teresa’s good works did not bring her one step closer to heaven. Jimmy had his own issues as we know, but that is the sentiment I presume Luther’s break with Rome led to in some quarters.

Or am I missing the point?
 
Nickyjo said:
What you have outlined is a beautiful vision of His love and mercy. What I don’t get is the notion that a moral upright non-believer, one who has never heard of or who rejects Jesus in good conscience , is somehow not saved. I remember Jimmy Swaggert saying that all Mother Teresa’s good works did not bring her one step closer to heaven. Jimmy had his own issues as we know, but that is the sentiment I presume Luther’s break with Rome led to in some quarters.

Or am I missing the point?
Click to expand...

"By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting." Ephesians 2:8,9

Not only through John 3:16 does the Bible point out it is faith in Jesus Christ that saves us but especially John 3:36...

"The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."

So it doesn't matter if we are a good person or how many good works we perform, if we deny or reject Jesus Christ, salvation is unobtainable...
 
Elvira said:
"By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting." Ephesians 2:8,9

Not only through John 3:16 does the Bible point out it is faith in Jesus Christ that saves us but especially John 3:36...

"The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."

So it doesn't matter if we are a good person or how many good works we perform, if we deny or reject Jesus Christ, salvation is unobtainable...
Click to expand...

What about “Faith without works is dead,” from St James, I believe, or the condemnation at the Last Judgement of those who failed to clothe and feed the poor? The vision you outline is of some sort of egomaniac God, Who doesn’t care if we do nothing to, say, help the less fortunate, so long as we believe in Him. Is God that insecure? Jesus had it right. Paul was a recruiter, on the other hand, so naturally he emphasized faith. And didn’t even Paul say charity was supreme? If Mother Teresa were not a believer, would all she did count for nothing at judgement time. Doubt it.

I still maintain that Luther overreacted. Hard to do given the corruption he saw in the 1500s, but he pulled it off.
 
Nickyjo said:
What you have outlined is a beautiful vision of His love and mercy. What I don’t get is the notion that a moral upright non-believer, one who has never heard of or who rejects Jesus in good conscience , is somehow not saved. I remember Jimmy Swaggert saying that all Mother Teresa’s good works did not bring her one step closer to heaven. Jimmy had his own issues as we know, but that is the sentiment I presume Luther’s break with Rome led to in some quarters.

Or am I missing the point?
Click to expand...

Do you believe the Bible? Do you believe that anyone is perfect? Why did Jesus come to be among us? I agree that the one who has never heard of Jesus might need to be heard about entrance into Heaven; while maybe Christians should not be allowed in as they let people remain lacking of knowledge.
 
Nickyjo said:
I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.

Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.

Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.
Click to expand...

Do your best to walk in His shoes, when those in of need help and He puts them your in their path, walk with Him. If you claim to be a Christian then walk like one. Not hard. Has nothing to do with deeds, only Belief in Him and His Message, one leads to the other.
 
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Nickyjo said:
What about “Faith without works is dead,” from St James, I believe, or the condemnation at the Last Judgement of those who failed to clothe and feed the poor? The vision you outline is of some sort of egomaniac God, Who doesn’t care if we do nothing to, say, help the less fortunate, so long as we believe in Him. Is God that insecure? Jesus had it right. Paul was a recruiter, on the other hand, so naturally he emphasized faith. And didn’t even Paul say charity was supreme? If Mother Teresa were not a believer, would all she did count for nothing at judgement time. Doubt it.

I still maintain that Luther overreacted. Hard to do given the corruption he saw in the 1500s, but he pulled it off.
Click to expand...

If a person has faith, that faith leads to action or works...that's an automatic...that is what James, in essence, was stating...you cannot have faith without works...it''s impossible...but a person can indeed have works without faith...BUT it is NOT our works that save us...no matter what we do, we will never be good enough because we are not perfect...

God has never denied being a jealous God, requiring exclusive devotion...
 
Nickyjo said:
What about “Faith without works is dead,” from St James, I believe, or the condemnation at the Last Judgement of those who failed to clothe and feed the poor? The vision you outline is of some sort of egomaniac God, Who doesn’t care if we do nothing to, say, help the less fortunate, so long as we believe in Him. Is God that insecure? Jesus had it right. Paul was a recruiter, on the other hand, so naturally he emphasized faith. And didn’t even Paul say charity was supreme? If Mother Teresa were not a believer, would all she did count for nothing at judgement time. Doubt it.

I still maintain that Luther overreacted. Hard to do given the corruption he saw in the 1500s, but he pulled it off.
Click to expand...

I once asked many of the questions you ask. In fact, I allowed Atheists to talk me out of being a Christian. It is now apparent to me that my faith was not pure and was greatly lacking. I have now been reborn.

God loves us and He desperately wants us to love Him. Charity, working for the betterment of others, attempting to walk the narrow road are all very good things. No doubt about it. What you do not do for the least of you, you do not do for Me. With a firm faith in our Savior, doing all these things are great proof of our love for Him. Without faith, a person does good deeds, but still lacks what is necessary for salvation.

Belonging to a newbie denomination, Baptist, we came along after the Reformation. I let others argue over Luther. :lol: Luther was a mere mortal. God is God and the Bible are His Words. It is best to go by the Bible.
 
Nickyjo said:
I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.

Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.

Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.
Click to expand...

James chapter 2 is a good one to read on this subject.
 
Nickyjo said:
I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.

Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.

Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.
Click to expand...

Water baptism is not necessary, but the spiritual baptism is - that being born again. Obviously people on their death beds in their last moments cannot always be baptized. Here's a good article on that:

What is Baptism? https://righterreport.com/2014/01/04/what-is-baptism/

On faith and works, the following article explains the relationship of faith and works accurately.

Justification by Faith - https://righterreport.com/2011/12/1...-how-believers-are-declared-righteous-by-god/

Excerpts: "Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works of A Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

"Another way to illustrate this is to consider the thief on the cross next to Jesus – the one who stated, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Then Jesus responded by saying, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:42-43). It was at this particular moment that the repentant thief received his salvation, and was justified righteous in the eyes of God. This particular moment would also coincide with Genesis 15:6, when Abraham believed God and it was credited (imputed to his account) as righteousness, and would also coincide with what Paul stated in Ephesians 2:8-9. Note that there is no evidence that the thief had performed any good works in his life. To the contrary, his works were more of a criminal nature than a Godly nature. That was the very reason he was being crucified. Even as he initially hung from his cross, he heaped insults on the Lord (Mark 15:32). But then the sky darkened, his pain and suffering magnified, and the words Jesus spoke on the cross hit their appointed target, and the thief had a change of heart and believed on the Lord. At that point, the thief received his salvation and justification."
 
vesper said:
James chapter 2 is a good one to read on this subject.
Click to expand...

That chapter bothered me for years until I finally figured it all out. The author below does a good job explaining that:

"James is clearly referring to Genesis chapter 22 (Paul referenced Genesis 15 – seven chapters earlier) as the point where Abraham was justified righteous. What we see here is an illustration that James uses to answer those people who are claiming to have saving faith but no works. Specifically, he states; “Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, ‘Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,’ but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? (what good is that man’s faith?)” In effect, James is saying, “You claim to have faith? You claim that God has saved you, put His Holy Spirit in you, and sealed you for redemption? You claim all these things and yet you let the poor go without food or clothes? What kind of a faith is that? I, James, will tell you quite frankly that if you possess the kind of saving faith that results in regeneration and changes a person’s life, the Holy Spirit will do a work in you and cause you to follow the Lord’s decrees (Ezekiel 36:27) and feed and clothe the poor.”

https://righterreport.com/2011/12/1...-how-believers-are-declared-righteous-by-god/

Abraham had already been declared righteous by faith in God seven chapters before James' argument (see Genesis 15:6).
 
If salvation is by works, then someone should tell us specifically what kind of works are necessary, and how many, and how do we know when we've done enough works so we know we're saved.

Obviously, salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and not be works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Works should follow when people are born again with the Holy Spirit, who initiates progressive sanctification.
 
Nickyjo said:
I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe.
Click to expand...

Indeed, faith without works can be said to be dead - since if one has faith, it should be
reflected in his works. I was just reading James on the subject.

James 2
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


 
Nickyjo said:
Don’t understand. If I live a good life, do good to others, don’t cheat my neighbors, etc., why should God care if I don’t believe in him or never heard of him?
Click to expand...

Why do you care what God care about?
Why not just carry on doing your good works without believing in Him?

You'll have to ask yourself: why do you want to be a Christian? What's your goal?
 
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Nickyjo said:
The vision you outline is of some sort of egomaniac God, Who doesn’t care if we do nothing to, say, help the less fortunate, so long as we believe in Him. Is God that insecure? Jesus had it right.
Click to expand...


From what I get in your statement, you're saying that in contrast to God, Jesus had it right.
What do you mean "Jesus had it right?" Please explain.
 
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Elvira said:
If a person has faith, that faith leads to action or works...that's an automatic...that is what James, in essence, was stating...you cannot have faith without works...it''s impossible...but a person can indeed have works without faith...BUT it is NOT our works that save us...no matter what we do, we will never be good enough because we are not perfect...

++ Beautifully stated.

God has never denied being a jealous God, requiring exclusive devotion...
Click to expand...

++ Doesn't sound like a Guy I would want to believe in. I prefer the Sermon on the Mount version.
 
Logicman said:
Water baptism is not necessary, but the spiritual baptism is - that being born again. Obviously people on their death beds in their last moments cannot always be baptized. Here's a good article on that:

What is Baptism? https://righterreport.com/2014/01/04/what-is-baptism/

On faith and works, the following article explains the relationship of faith and works accurately.

Justification by Faith - https://righterreport.com/2011/12/1...-how-believers-are-declared-righteous-by-god/

Excerpts: "Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works of A Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

"Another way to illustrate this is to consider the thief on the cross next to Jesus – the one who stated, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Then Jesus responded by saying, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:42-43). It was at this particular moment that the repentant thief received his salvation, and was justified righteous in the eyes of God. This particular moment would also coincide with Genesis 15:6, when Abraham believed God and it was credited (imputed to his account) as righteousness, and would also coincide with what Paul stated in Ephesians 2:8-9. Note that there is no evidence that the thief had performed any good works in his life. To the contrary, his works were more of a criminal nature than a Godly nature. That was the very reason he was being crucified. Even as he initially hung from his cross, he heaped insults on the Lord (Mark 15:32). But then the sky darkened, his pain and suffering magnified, and the words Jesus spoke on the cross hit their appointed target, and the thief had a change of heart and believed on the Lord. At that point, the thief received his salvation and justification."
Click to expand...

Still wondering about what happens to a righteous person who lives a moral life performing good works, but has never heard of or rejects Jesus. In the Catholic tradition, we squared that circle through what we calle(ed) "baptism of desire." Otherwise, God comes off as a vain jerk in denying such a person salvation.
 
tosca1 said:
Why do you care what God care about?
Why not just carry on doing your good works without believing in Him?

You'll have to ask yourself: why do you want to be a Christian? What's your goal?
Click to expand...

My point was that people suggest that God cares whether we believe. I tend to think he check our work product first. Belief is the cherry on top.
 
tosca1 said:
From what I get in your statement, you're saying that in contrast to God, Jesus had it right.
What do you mean "Jesus had it right?" Please explain.
Click to expand...

I was speaking of the notion of the "jealous God" of the OT, vs Jesus, who seemed to have his priorities right when he described the Last Judgement, with its emphasis on charitable works. My slightly blasphemous notion of a balanced Catholic God is that the Father is the conservative (who else would punish Moses for one slip up?), the Son is the liberal (who else would tell us we have to visit the imprisoned?), and the Holy Spirit is much like the VP, hanging around to break tie votes, but otherwise sort of like Fredo in the Godfather, ignored except to run errands like the Annunciation and Pentecost.

No offense intended.
 
Nickyjo said:
Still wondering about what happens to a righteous person who lives a moral life performing good works, but has never heard of or rejects Jesus. In the Catholic tradition, we squared that circle through what we calle(ed) "baptism of desire." Otherwise, God comes off as a vain jerk in denying such a person salvation.
Click to expand...

There are no people who are inherently righteous. As the scripture says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

As for how the people you mentioned will be judged, please read Romans chapters 1 and 2.
 
Comparing the Holy Spirit to the character of Fredo is a new one.
 
Nickyjo said:
I was speaking of the notion of the "jealous God" of the OT, vs Jesus, who seemed to have his priorities right when he described the Last Judgement, with its emphasis on charitable works.
No offense intended.
Click to expand...

The Old Testament gives us the history of Christianity. It shows how Israel kept "back-sliding" and worshipping other gods despite what God had done for them. The OT explains why mankind was in need of a Saviour.
It would've been easier for the Father to just scrap mankind, and start all over again. Instead, He sent His Son Jesus (to be the ultimate sacrifice for our sins).

Jesus' instructions came from the Father. Jesus wasn't teaching anything that deviates from what the Father wanted Him to do.
Jesus is the model for obedience - therefore, He wouldn't be teaching us something that goes against the Father.

Don't forget that Jesus had emphasized the first Commandment is the most important of all Commandments.


Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


My slightly blasphemous notion of a balanced Catholic God is that the Father is the conservative (who else would punish Moses for one slip up?), the Son is the liberal (who else would tell us we have to visit the imprisoned?), and the Holy Spirit is much like the VP, hanging around to break tie votes, but otherwise sort of like Fredo in the Godfather, ignored except to run errands like the Annunciation and Pentecost.
Click to expand...

The Father is a loving God, even in the Old Testament. There were reasons why God had punished people in the Old Testament.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/467-old-testament-events-and-the-goodness-of-god
 
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