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Thread: Can there be an all mighty god?

  1. #171
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    Re: Can there be an all mighty god?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Gonna try one last time

    We are talking about X
    X must be XA or XB
    If XA then not XB and vice versa
    If X is not known to be XA or XB then it is not known and X can be either XA or XB.
    Your argument is that since it is not proven to be XA it must be XB.

    Do you see the problem now?
    In line 2, you correctly use the modal "must" and render (in your own notation) the Law of Excluded Middle as necessary.
    In line 3, you correctly render the logical arguments that follow from line 2.
    In line 4, you contradict line 2 (the Law of Excluded Middle) and then recast line 2 (the Law of Excluded Middle) incorrectly as merely possible.
    In line 5, you misrepresent my argument. My argument is that since it is not XA, it follows from line 2 that it is XB (again using your notation).
    There is the problem.
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  2. #172
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    Re: Can there be an all mighty god?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    In line 2, you correctly use the modal "must" and render (in your own notation) the Law of Excluded Middle as necessary.
    In line 3, you correctly render the logical arguments that follow from line 2.
    In line 4, you contradict line 2 (the Law of Excluded Middle) and then recast line 2 (the Law of Excluded Middle) incorrectly as merely possible.
    There is no contradiction in fact there is actually no other way it can be interpreted.
    In line 5, you misrepresent my argument. My argument is that since it is not XA, it follows from line 2 that it is XB (again using your notation).
    There is the problem.
    First of all, Johnson is correct. If something is unknown, and does not involve a (known) logical contradiction, then it is possible.
    How is the above different than saying it is not proven to be XA thus it must be XB?
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  3. #173
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    Re: Can there be an all mighty god?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    ...
    We are talking about X
    X must be XA or XB
    If XA then not XB and vice versa
    If X is not known to be XA or XB then it is not known and X can be either XA or XB.
    Your argument is that since it is not proven to be XA it must be XB.

    ...
    Quag, this is the most charitable reading of your argument, as far as I can see:

    Let's say X is a number, and A is odd and B is even.

    Thus:
    We are talking about a number
    A number must be an odd number or an even number
    If an odd number then not an even number and vice versa
    If the number is not known to be an odd number or an even number then it is not known and the number can be an odd number or an even number

    Your conclusion just takes us back to X is a number (unknown).

    My argument says we know something about the unknown number, let's say that it is not divisible by 2. (This "knowledge" corresponds in our actual argument to the fact that there is no contradiction or absurdity involved in the concept of God.) That bit of knowledge allows the argument to be made.

    Your appeal to ignorance (and it was yours, not mine) forecloses the argument before it begins.
    Your position is: we are totally ignorant of God; therefore, we can say nothing about God.
    That is why I have been trying to get you to see that I am talking about the concept of God, which we are not in total ignorance of since our minds produced it.
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    Re: Can there be an all mighty god?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Quag, this is the most charitable reading of your argument, as far as I can see:

    Let's say X is a number, and A is odd and B is even.

    Thus:
    We are talking about a number
    A number must be an odd number or an even number
    If an odd number then not an even number and vice versa
    If the number is not known to be an odd number or an even number then it is not known and the number can be an odd number or an even number

    Your conclusion just takes us back to X is a number (unknown).
    Ok that works

    My argument says we know something about the unknown number, let's say that it is not divisible by 2. (This "knowledge" corresponds in our actual argument to the fact that there is no contradiction or absurdity involved in the concept of God.) That bit of knowledge allows the argument to be made.
    But you dont know that it is divisible by two you have no logical reason to make such a claim.
    Just like God you dont actually KNOW anything you can only believe but belief is not knowledge.
    Hence we are back with XA or XB and no logical way to claim it is either


    Your appeal to ignorance (and it was yours, not mine) forecloses the argument before it begins.
    No my argument is based on what we actually know which is nothing
    Your position is: we are totally ignorant of God; therefore, we can say nothing about God.
    That is why I have been trying to get you to see that I am talking about the concept of God, which we are not in total ignorance of since our minds produced it.
    Actually that is not my position
    My position is we know nothing about God, therefore we can assert nothing as fact we can only assert our beliefs.
    Since belief is not fact we are left with not knowing if it is XA or XB and there is no logical way you an assert XB.
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    Re: Can there be an all mighty god?

    Well, we persisted for five or six more posts, but your Pyrrhonism makes any further discussion impossible. If you won't acknowledge that we know our own concepts, then there's nothing more to say. I wonder what you have in mind when you use the word "God" and whether you know what you have in mind?
    Peace, Quag.
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    Re: Can there be an all mighty god?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Well, we persisted for five or six more posts, but your Pyrrhonism makes any further discussion impossible. If you won't acknowledge that we know our own concepts, then there's nothing more to say. I wonder what you have in mind when you use the word "God" and whether you know what you have in mind?
    Peace, Quag.
    Who cares if God cannot make something too heavy for him to pick up? Here are a few things God can do:

    1. Create the universe
    2. Create a variety of types of animals
    3. Create plant life of all types
    4. Create man and woman
    5. Create a virgin birth
    6. Fulfill prophecy hundreds of years later and do as many as 28 in a week's time.
    7. He can triple himself
    8, He can forgive sin
    9. He can provide salvation
    10. He can make all things possible
    11. He can walk on water
    12. He can do thousands of other things that I have not mentioned here.

    Now that is an awesome God!

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    Re: Can there be an all mighty god?

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Who cares if God cannot make something too heavy for him to pick up?
    That's just a facile paradox some folks think clever. Just seems silly to me.
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    Re: Can there be an all mighty god?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Well, we persisted for five or six more posts, but your Pyrrhonism makes any further discussion impossible. If you won't acknowledge that we know our own concepts, then there's nothing more to say. I wonder what you have in mind when you use the word "God" and whether you know what you have in mind?
    Peace, Quag.
    A concept of something is not the same as something,
    You have no idea if your concept has any truth behind it.
    Humans have the capacity to create all kinds of possible and impossible ideas, the ability to think of a concept does not make the concpet possible in reality.
    If we look at the number analogy.
    The number can be between -infinity and infinity, rational, irrational, whole or a fraction etc. You know nothing about the number or even if it exists. Thus you cannot say anything about it with any certainty.
    You are trying to claim you know something of God when that is in fact not true.
    You cannot base a logical argument on a belief unless you admit that it is based on a belief and thus is not necessarily true.
    leaving us with no other logical choice but to admit it is XA or XB and any claims that it has to be XB are illogical.
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    Winston Churchill

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    Re: Can there be an all mighty god?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Anthropomorphism has addled your thinking about Ultimate Reality, Lefty. Look to it.
    I did not know that word - I always use the phrase Bambification (Douglas Copeland).

  10. #180
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    Re: Can there be an all mighty god?

    Well, I don't know. However, there is no scientific evidence for a god so I don't live my life as if God existed.

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