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What convinced me? [W 138]

it's just me

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Someone asked in another thread what it was that convinced me that there was a God, and I think it is a question that deserves an answer.

I think I have suffered more than my share in my lifetime; as a child I learned that adults weren't always looking out for you and at times should not be trusted and as a teenager I learned that they will rip you off for whatever they can get without a second thought. And that's just for starters. This was at a time when people were singing songs about brotherhood and peace, love and understanding, etc.

I got invited to some kind of revival, and I went. The man who was speaking was one of those people who can make anything crystal clear, and one of the things he said was this:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is none who does good.

The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.

They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

And the thing that I had been struggling with, the question of how "good people" could be so evil, was right in front of me. They were not good.

This is not to say that people aren't capable of doing good things, they are. Jesus said that even evil me can give their children good gifts, or that heathens can treat their buddies well. Everybody else is on their own.

People can and will slit your throat for a dime with the proper motivation, and if there are enough dimes at stake, and that means anybody and everybody. As Son House once said:

You know your mother would talk about you
Your own sisters and your brothers too
They just don’t care how you’re tryin’ to live
They’ll talk about you still...

You know they’ll jump you up and down
They’ll carry you all 'round and 'round
Just as soon as your back is turned
They’ll be tryin’ to crush you down

And he ought to have known. This is why things like covetousness, adultery, gossip, perjury, disrespect to parents, stealing, etc. were forbidden by the law - they were known offenses.

For the scriptures to have said in several places that without God, without a savior, the world is doomed, was such profound wisdom it could have only been Divinely inspired.

And yet, there will always be somebody who will want to say that people are basically good, even after watching the newscast with reports of two or three murders, child abductions, and assaults and battery.

Realizing that people are basically rotten, including myself, and in need of a savior, is the only thing that has enabled me to make sense of it.
 
Someone asked in another thread what it was that convinced me that there was a God, and I think it is a question that deserves an answer.

I think I have suffered more than my share in my lifetime; as a child I learned that adults weren't always looking out for you and at times should not be trusted and as a teenager I learned that they will rip you off for whatever they can get without a second thought. And that's just for starters. This was at a time when people were singing songs about brotherhood and peace, love and understanding, etc.

I got invited to some kind of revival, and I went. The man who was speaking was one of those people who can make anything crystal clear, and one of the things he said was this:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is none who does good.

The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.

They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

And the thing that I had been struggling with, the question of how "good people" could be so evil, was right in front of me. They were not good.

This is not to say that people aren't capable of doing good things, they are. Jesus said that even evil me can give their children good gifts, or that heathens can treat their buddies well. Everybody else is on their own.

People can and will slit your throat for a dime with the proper motivation, and if there are enough dimes at stake, and that means anybody and everybody. As Son House once said:

You know your mother would talk about you
Your own sisters and your brothers too
They just don’t care how you’re tryin’ to live
They’ll talk about you still...

You know they’ll jump you up and down
They’ll carry you all 'round and 'round
Just as soon as your back is turned
They’ll be tryin’ to crush you down

And he ought to have known. This is why things like covetousness, adultery, gossip, perjury, disrespect to parents, stealing, etc. were forbidden by the law - they were known offenses.

For the scriptures to have said in several places that without God, without a savior, the world is doomed, was such profound wisdom it could have only been Divinely inspired.

And yet, there will always be somebody who will want to say that people are basically good, even after watching the newscast with reports of two or three murders, child abductions, and assaults and battery.

Realizing that people are basically rotten, including myself, and in need of a savior, is the only thing that has enabled me to make sense of it.

So, if something created by a workman is no good, don't you blame the workman? Why did your god knowingly create such a sub-par product as us? It makes NO sense. None. And don't try to blame Satan or talking snakes. If God did ALL the creating, then he alone shoulders the blame for doing such a rotten job.
 
Someone asked in another thread what it was that convinced me that there was a God, and I think it is a question that deserves an answer.

I think I have suffered more than my share in my lifetime; as a child I learned that adults weren't always looking out for you and at times should not be trusted and as a teenager I learned that they will rip you off for whatever they can get without a second thought. And that's just for starters. This was at a time when people were singing songs about brotherhood and peace, love and understanding, etc.

I got invited to some kind of revival, and I went. The man who was speaking was one of those people who can make anything crystal clear, and one of the things he said was this:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is none who does good.

The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.

They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

And the thing that I had been struggling with, the question of how "good people" could be so evil, was right in front of me. They were not good.

This is not to say that people aren't capable of doing good things, they are. Jesus said that even evil me can give their children good gifts, or that heathens can treat their buddies well. Everybody else is on their own.

People can and will slit your throat for a dime with the proper motivation, and if there are enough dimes at stake, and that means anybody and everybody. As Son House once said:

You know your mother would talk about you
Your own sisters and your brothers too
They just don’t care how you’re tryin’ to live
They’ll talk about you still...

You know they’ll jump you up and down
They’ll carry you all 'round and 'round
Just as soon as your back is turned
They’ll be tryin’ to crush you down

And he ought to have known. This is why things like covetousness, adultery, gossip, perjury, disrespect to parents, stealing, etc. were forbidden by the law - they were known offenses.

For the scriptures to have said in several places that without God, without a savior, the world is doomed, was such profound wisdom it could have only been Divinely inspired.

And yet, there will always be somebody who will want to say that people are basically good, even after watching the newscast with reports of two or three murders, child abductions, and assaults and battery.

Realizing that people are basically rotten, including myself, and in need of a savior, is the only thing that has enabled me to make sense of it.

I’ve never been able to logically accept there is a God. To me, I just don’t understand why an all-powerful God would send his son to be cruelly crucified in order for God to find it in his heart to be able to forgive the beings he himself created and allowed to be imperfect. Just can’t quite reconcile that.

But that by no means says that I don’t believe in God and believe Christ is my savior. There are things beyond heaven and earth we just arent SUPPOSED to understand with our rational minds.
 
So, if something created by a workman is no good, don't you blame the workman? Why did your god knowingly create such a sub-par product as us? It makes NO sense. None. And don't try to blame Satan or talking snakes. If God did ALL the creating, then he alone shoulders the blame for doing such a rotten job.

Carpenters don't build houses with free will. The whole point of the Bible is that left to his own devices, mankind will crap in it's own food bowl every time. This is what the leftwits have been complaining about since the 1960's - they thought we were going to blow up the planet, over-populate the planet, poison the air, poison the water, but let somebody say that is human nature and they flip out.
 
I’ve never been able to logically accept there is a God. To me, I just don’t understand why an all-powerful God would send his son to be cruelly crucified in order for God to find it in his heart to be able to forgive the beings he himself created and allowed to be imperfect. Just can’t quite reconcile that.

But that by no means says that I don’t believe in God and believe Christ is my savior. There are things beyond heaven and earth we just arent SUPPOSED to understand with our rational minds.

He didn't send his son, He came Himself, only God can save you, not a created being.

Think of it this way: God Himself paid your fine and paid the price so you wouldn't have to. These things are understandable.
 
He didn't send his son, He came Himself, only God can save you, not a created being.

Think of it this way: God Himself paid your fine and paid the price so you wouldn't have to. These things are understandable.

Well, they are understandable to you. And that, in your life, is ALLLLL that’s important. I rarely post in religious threads because what a poster believes is what he believes. I don’t have to “think of it” a certain way. It is enough that I believe. And no human logic will change that.

I don’t agree with your post. But that is totally unimportant.
 
Well, they are understandable to you. And that, in your life, is ALLLLL that’s important. I rarely post in religious threads because what a poster believes is what he believes. I don’t have to “think of it” a certain way. It is enough that I believe. And no human logic will change that.

I don’t agree with your post. But that is totally unimportant.

You don't have to. The question was, what convinced me. I answered it.
 
Carpenters don't build houses with free will. The whole point of the Bible is that left to his own devices, mankind will crap in it's own food bowl every time. This is what the leftwits have been complaining about since the 1960's - they thought we were going to blow up the planet, over-populate the planet, poison the air, poison the water, but let somebody say that is human nature and they flip out.

Nope. Creating us with free will to see how many of us will screw up is something a 5-year-old would do. You have to accept that God created mankind knowing full well that vast numbers of them will do the wrong thing and therefore end up in Hell. Your god is dicking with us. He's a sociopath.
 
So per your op quote, everyone who doesn't believe in a divine entity is corrupt?

Bull****....

Prove it...
 
Nope. Creating us with free will to see how many of us will screw up is something a 5-year-old would do. You have to accept that God created mankind knowing full well that vast numbers of them will do the wrong thing and therefore end up in Hell. Your god is dicking with us. He's a sociopath.

You don't like free will? Is that why people like you keep voting for authoritarian dictators who want to tell you what to do all of the time?
 
Nope. Creating us with free will to see how many of us will screw up is something a 5-year-old would do. You have to accept that God created mankind knowing full well that vast numbers of them will do the wrong thing and therefore end up in Hell. Your god is dicking with us. He's a sociopath.

Where’s a face palm icon? :lamo

God didn’t write the Bible. He didn’t set parameters. Man did. Thousands of years ago. One only has to think of the party game “Telephone” to imagine how it’s message has been distorted. ;)
 
So per your op quote, everyone who doesn't believe in a divine entity is corrupt?

Bull****....

Prove it...

That's not what I said, go back and read what I said.
 
He didn't send his son, He came Himself, only God can save you, not a created being.

Think of it this way: God Himself paid your fine and paid the price so you wouldn't have to. These things are understandable.

Paid the fine to.... who, exactly?
 
Politics? Really???

Yes, really. I am constantly amazed at the number of people who are appalled at the idea of being accountable to a supreme being but will bow down to government in a heartbeat. Years ago this was called "Caesar worship". People who practiced it thought Caesar was god.
 
You don't have to. The question was, what convinced me. I answered it.

Thanks for that. To get there, you jumped to a couple of conclusions that don't work for me, but as Maggie alluded to - it wasn't about me.

I'm always interested in the "how" and "why" of religious belief. Generally, I want to arrive at beliefs by way of logical conclusion, and the 3 big monotheistic religions just don't work for me. It's not that I don't believe their could be a God, it's that the back stories don't add up in a sensible way to me.
 
Thanks for that. To get there, you jumped to a couple of conclusions that don't work for me, but as Maggie alluded to - it wasn't about me.

I'm always interested in the "how" and "why" of religious belief. Generally, I want to arrive at beliefs by way of logical conclusion, and the 3 big monotheistic religions just don't work for me. It's not that I don't believe their could be a God, it's that the back stories don't add up in a sensible way to me.

I don't think I did. What did you have in mind?
 
I don't think I did. What did you have in mind?

I don't have time to parse your OP right now, but I promise I will get to it later. It's entirely possible that I misconstrued something in your OP, so I welcome the opportunity to check. Later.:peace
 
I don't have time to parse your OP right now, but I promise I will get to it later. It's entirely possible that I misconstrued something in your OP, so I welcome the opportunity to check. Later.:peace

Good deal, I will get back to the Michigan State game.
 
You don't like free will? Is that why people like you keep voting for authoritarian dictators who want to tell you what to do all of the time?

What free will are you talking about? In a materialistic universe it is next to impossible to prove that free will is anything other than an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Many religions, like Christianity, try to get around that by saying the soul is what allows you to have free will in a deterministic universe.

Let's leave aside the problem of how a non-materialistic soul affects the behavior of a materialistic brain, and let's just assume it does. The problem with that is you didn't pick your soul. Apparently God made all the souls and all souls are unique. God decided if you got the soul of it's just me or the soul of Charles Manson. You exercised zero control over the nature of the soul you received. Which, for me, makes the whole free will excuse of religions like Christianity very hard to swallow.
 
What free will are you talking about? In a materialistic universe it is next to impossible to prove that free will is anything other than an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Many religions, like Christianity, try to get around that by saying the soul is what allows you to have free will in a deterministic universe.

Let's leave aside the problem of how a non-materialistic soul affects the behavior of a materialistic brain, and let's just assume it does. The problem with that is you didn't pick your soul. Apparently God made all the souls and all souls are unique. God decided if you got the soul of it's just me or the soul of Charles Manson. You exercised zero control over the nature of the soul you received. Which, for me, makes the whole free will excuse of religions like Christianity very hard to swallow.

You have to define what you mean when you say "soul" so I can have a reference point.
 
What free will are you talking about? In a materialistic universe it is next to impossible to prove that free will is anything other than an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Many religions, like Christianity, try to get around that by saying the soul is what allows you to have free will in a deterministic universe.

Let's leave aside the problem of how a non-materialistic soul affects the behavior of a materialistic brain, and let's just assume it does. The problem with that is you didn't pick your soul. Apparently God made all the souls and all souls are unique. God decided if you got the soul of it's just me or the soul of Charles Manson. You exercised zero control over the nature of the soul you received. Which, for me, makes the whole free will excuse of religions like Christianity very hard to swallow.

First, you'll have to define "soul"...the Bible speaks of living souls, as well as dead souls, so with that in mind, what conclusion does that lead you?
 
You have to define what you mean when you say "soul" so I can have a reference point.

I had my comment ready to reply and was called away from the pc...came back and posted...you had already said something very similar...sorry...
 
You don't like free will?

One day someone on DP is going to respond to me in something other than a non sequitur, and I'm going to keel over. I never said I don't like free will. I'm saying that your god created in mankind the ability to do unspeakable evil, AND the free will to actually do it. That makes him a sociopath and a voyeur. He's one sick puppy.

Is that why people like you keep voting for authoritarian dictators who want to tell you what to do all of the time?

You have NO frickin idea who I vote for.
 
One day someone on DP is going to respond to me in something other than a non sequitur, and I'm going to keel over. I never said I don't like free will. I'm saying that your god created in mankind the ability to do unspeakable evil, AND the free will to actually do it. That makes him a sociopath and a voyeur. He's one sick puppy.



You have NO frickin idea who I vote for.

And you have no idea of whether God is a sociopath or not. Two can play at that game.
 
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