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What convinced me? [W 138]

Wow, just wow...

You're telling me I'm evil, corrupt and can do no good because I don't share your religion, but I'm the one saying shocking things? You're the kind of fake and hate filled christians that gives the respectable ones a bad name.
 
Every way I look at it leads me to the conclusion that free will is an illusion, and thus cannot be used to excuse the problem of evil with regard to the existence of God.

Accepting for a moment that humankind's free will is only an illusion, to whose will, then, is humankind bound?
 
You're telling me I'm evil, corrupt and can do no good because I don't share your religion, but I'm the one saying shocking things? You're the kind of fake and hate filled christians that gives the respectable ones a bad name.

I didn't tell you anything, you took some words I quoted out of their context and used them to prove what I had been saying all along, utterly convinced of your own righteousness. Tell me, what are "respectable Christians" in your mind? The ones that keep their mouths shut, or, when they do open their mouths they say only things you agree with? I'm betting it's the former. As part of my ministry I feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, but that doesn't matter because it's WORDS that scare you the most, which are not supposed to be able to harm you, but your afraid of them anyway, and that's what makes me so (shall I say it?) despicable. Hell, I might have even voted for Trump.

There is nothing libertarian about you.
 
I didn't tell you anything, you took some words I quoted out of their context and used them to prove what I had been saying all along, utterly convinced of your own righteousness. Tell me, what are "respectable Christians" in your mind? The ones that keep their mouths shut, or, when they do open their mouths they say only things you agree with? I'm betting it's the former. As part of my ministry I feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, but that doesn't matter because it's WORDS that scare you the most, which are not supposed to be able to harm you, but your afraid of them anyway, and that's what makes me so (shall I say it?) despicable. Hell, I might have even voted for Trump.

There is nothing libertarian about you.

So in summary the reason you're "convinced" your religion is right is because it told you that everyone who doesn't believe in your god is evil and corrupt and that really resonated with you. There is no context to take it out of, I quoted the entire verse. Some people use religion to fuel their hate and others use it to reduce it, you're obviously the former.
 
So in summary the reason you're "convinced" your religion is right is because it told you that everyone who doesn't believe in your god is evil and corrupt and that really resonated with you. There is no context to take it out of, I quoted the entire verse. Some people use religion to fuel their hate and others use it to reduce it, you're obviously the former.

No, that's not what I said, this ^ is a product of YOUR poisoned mind.
 
I’ve never been able to logically accept there is a God. To me, I just don’t understand why an all-powerful God would send his son to be cruelly crucified in order for God to find it in his heart to be able to forgive the beings he himself created and allowed to be imperfect. Just can’t quite reconcile that.

But that by no means says that I don’t believe in God and believe Christ is my savior. There are things beyond heaven and earth we just arent SUPPOSED to understand with our rational minds.

Nuns tried that 'there are things we are not supposed (by whom?) to understand' trope on me when I was about 9. I didn't much care for it even then. No Maggie, abandon reason and all is lost.

Anyway there is 'only one god' say the Christians, so what is all this Father/Son nonsense all about? - just more unreason.
 
Someone asked in another thread what it was that convinced me that there was a God, and I think it is a question that deserves an answer.

I think I have suffered more than my share in my lifetime; as a child I learned that adults weren't always looking out for you and at times should not be trusted and as a teenager I learned that they will rip you off for whatever they can get without a second thought. And that's just for starters. This was at a time when people were singing songs about brotherhood and peace, love and understanding, etc.

I got invited to some kind of revival, and I went. The man who was speaking was one of those people who can make anything crystal clear, and one of the things he said was this:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is none who does good.

The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.

They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

And the thing that I had been struggling with, the question of how "good people" could be so evil, was right in front of me. They were not good.

This is not to say that people aren't capable of doing good things, they are. Jesus said that even evil me can give their children good gifts, or that heathens can treat their buddies well. Everybody else is on their own.

People can and will slit your throat for a dime with the proper motivation, and if there are enough dimes at stake, and that means anybody and everybody. As Son House once said:

You know your mother would talk about you
Your own sisters and your brothers too
They just don’t care how you’re tryin’ to live
They’ll talk about you still...

You know they’ll jump you up and down
They’ll carry you all 'round and 'round
Just as soon as your back is turned
They’ll be tryin’ to crush you down

And he ought to have known. This is why things like covetousness, adultery, gossip, perjury, disrespect to parents, stealing, etc. were forbidden by the law - they were known offenses.

For the scriptures to have said in several places that without God, without a savior, the world is doomed, was such profound wisdom it could have only been Divinely inspired.

And yet, there will always be somebody who will want to say that people are basically good, even after watching the newscast with reports of two or three murders, child abductions, and assaults and battery.

Realizing that people are basically rotten, including myself, and in need of a savior, is the only thing that has enabled me to make sense of it.

Just to be clear, are you stating that you can't be a good person without a savior?
 
Just to be clear, are you stating that you can't be a good person without a savior?

Just to be clear, I am saying that many DO need a savior.
 
Just to be clear, I am saying that many DO need a savior.

Thanks for clarifying that you don't believe you can't be a good person without a savior. This part specifically is why I asked. (I do understand that they are not your words, but the speakers.)

there is none who does good,
not even one.
 
Thanks for clarifying that you don't believe you can't be a good person without a savior. This part specifically is why I asked. (I do understand that they are not your words, but the speakers.)

And I was not pointing fingers at anybody here, in spite of what some may say, I was speaking specifically of people I know or have known personally. If I told you some of the stories you wouldn't believe them.
 
And I was not pointing fingers at anybody here, in spite of what some may say, I was speaking specifically of people I know or have known personally. If I told you some of the stories you wouldn't believe them.

That's why I asked you to clarify. I'm hoping that those reading the thread will now see that this is really your thoughts on your own personal journey, you're not attempting to point fingers at all others.
 
That's why I asked you to clarify. I'm hoping that those reading the thread will now see that this is really your thoughts on your own personal journey, you're not attempting to point fingers at all others.

I hope you're right. The bottom line is, in God we trust, all others pay cash. I don't even lend people money any more, if I can't afford to give it to them I keep it. Saves me a lot of grief.
 
He didn't send his son, He came Himself, only God can save you, not a created being.

Think of it this way: God Himself paid your fine and paid the price so you wouldn't have to. These things are understandable.


Then why did Jesus say in John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

Jesus draws a distinct line between His will and God's will. And, he specifically says he was "sent." The awkward idea of the Trinity does not explain why Jesus would fast and pray (He had no need, being God, did he) and ask God to change His mind about the upcoming events.

The crucifixion/resurrection was a blood sacrifice, something the pagans were still doing at that time. Absolutely nothing indicates that God could not arranged for Jesus to have ascended without the demand of the blood sacrifice.

In addition (and there were messiahs that died and rose before Jesus), it was also a pagan concept to think that the average person could eat the dead god/man and receive some sort of spiritual benefit. That type of cannibalism was almost a requirement for them to accept the story of a god/man dying for them and then beating death. So, what does Jesus do? Establish symbolic cannibalism (the bread being His body, the wine being His blood) and asks the disciples to partake of the symbolic eating of Himself. The Roman Catholic Church, of course, was not able to let the cannibalism be symbolic, being heavily inundated in pagan ritualism themselves so they established the Doctrine of Transubstantiation. It is their doctrine -- still believed to this very day -- that the wafer and wine actually turn to the blood and flesh of Jesus in their tummies.

When you remove all the hocus-pocus from the bible, and, by the way, Thomas Jefferson did that with his own version of the New Testament, you're left with a man who told people to treat others nicely but performed no miracles and was not the offspring of a deity.

In this day and age, it's hard to imagine that anyone actually buys into the hocus-pocus anymore. Personally, I doubt the persona named Jesus ever existed, but if He did, he was nothing more than an average man with some different philosophical ideas.

At any rate, worshiping Him, God or the Holy Spirit, won't get anyone anywhere, and there's a good chance it will actually keep them from reaching their life's potential.
 
Then why did Jesus say in John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

Jesus draws a distinct line between His will and God's will. And, he specifically says he was "sent." The awkward idea of the Trinity does not explain why Jesus would fast and pray (He had no need, being God, did he) and ask God to change His mind about the upcoming events.

The crucifixion/resurrection was a blood sacrifice, something the pagans were still doing at that time. Absolutely nothing indicates that God could not arranged for Jesus to have ascended without the demand of the blood sacrifice.

In addition (and there were messiahs that died and rose before Jesus), it was also a pagan concept to think that the average person could eat the dead god/man and receive some sort of spiritual benefit. That type of cannibalism was almost a requirement for them to accept the story of a god/man dying for them and then beating death. So, what does Jesus do? Establish symbolic cannibalism (the bread being His body, the wine being His blood) and asks the disciples to partake of the symbolic eating of Himself. The Roman Catholic Church, of course, was not able to let the cannibalism be symbolic, being heavily inundated in pagan ritualism themselves so they established the Doctrine of Transubstantiation. It is their doctrine -- still believed to this very day -- that the wafer and wine actually turn to the blood and flesh of Jesus in their tummies.

When you remove all the hocus-pocus from the bible, and, by the way, Thomas Jefferson did that with his own version of the New Testament, you're left with a man who told people to treat others nicely but performed no miracles and was not the offspring of a deity.

In this day and age, it's hard to imagine that anyone actually buys into the hocus-pocus anymore. Personally, I doubt the persona named Jesus ever existed, but if He did, he was nothing more than an average man with some different philosophical ideas.

At any rate, worshiping Him, God or the Holy Spirit, won't get anyone anywhere, and there's a good chance it will actually keep them from reaching their life's potential.

Yeah, I have heard all of this before. I don't have time to reply to this right now, I have to go and celebrate the Eucharist.
 
i believe in God. i don't look down on those who don't, because i'm not above them. i occasionally give some believers and non-believers the side eye, though, because a few tend to use it as a weapon. believing in God is not a secret club which you can use to exclude others. also, being an atheist is ok, but it doesn't automatically make you enlightened or a step above everyone else.

i believe in God because i do. this helps me when things are hard, and also when they aren't. i always have someone to talk to. as much as i bitch about things, i'm grateful to exist, and it helps to have someone to say thank you for that besides my parents, who i also thank.

i don't want to convince anyone that there is or isn't a God. that is private thing, and i generally keep it private. believe what you want, and don't use that belief to hurt others. be a cool and helpful mofo. i'm working on that one.
 
i believe in God. i don't look down on those who don't, because i'm not above them. i occasionally give some believers and non-believers the side eye, though, because a few tend to use it as a weapon. believing in God is not a secret club which you can use to exclude others. also, being an atheist is ok, but it doesn't automatically make you enlightened or a step above everyone else.

i believe in God because i do. this helps me when things are hard, and also when they aren't. i always have someone to talk to. as much as i bitch about things, i'm grateful to exist, and it helps to have someone to say thank you for that besides my parents, who i also thank.

i don't want to convince anyone that there is or isn't a God. that is private thing, and i generally keep it private. believe what you want, and don't use that belief to hurt others. be a cool and helpful mofo. i'm working on that one.

Being “a cool and helpful mofo” has always been my goal, although I express it a bit differently.

You made me laugh out loud. Great way to start a beautiful morning in Chicago.
 
Being “a cool and helpful mofo” has always been my goal, although I express it a bit differently.

You made me laugh out loud. Great way to start a beautiful morning in Chicago.

thanks. i hesitated before posting that because i don't usually talk about that kind of stuff in public. i hope to become a better cool and helpful mofo before the circuitry fails.
 
I don't think I did. What did you have in mind?

Let's start with the idea that basically everyone is rotten when you get right down to it. From that you extrapolate that all of us are in need of a savior, therefore Christianity is the answer.

There are several problems I have with that. First, I don't believe everyone is simply rotten, that we would all rape, steal and kill without God to keep us in line. Second, (others have pointed this out) assuming the God you assert is real, he created us all rotten. Why? That wasn't necessary. The "he wanted to give us the free will to chose him or the bad guy (who God also created) he got into a fight with over who could seduce the most people" seems a little childish for an omnipotent being.

That came out kind of confrontational. I didn't mean it that way...
 
Accepting for a moment that humankind's free will is only an illusion, to whose will, then, is humankind bound?

I see no reason to posit anyone's will to whom we are bound. There is no will involved when rain falls from the sky, when a moth flies toward the light, or when a star goes super nova. Perhaps like everything else we are just the end result of a long chain of reactions bound by the laws of physics. Perhaps you are just what the universe is doing at a specific point in time and location in the same way a wave is what the ocean is doing at that specific time and location. No will needed.
 
thanks. i hesitated before posting that because i don't usually talk about that kind of stuff in public. i hope to become a better cool and helpful mofo before the circuitry fails.

That's a very Jewish attitude..
 
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