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What convinced me? [W 138]

devildavid said:
You can't measure perfection in any being by simply saying they are perfect. It means nothing without their actions. Without some manifestation of perfection, the word is meaningless. If the first man was perfect, it means having free will is a trait of a perfect being. And having free will is also the path to imperfection.
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You are saying perfection requires action to prove and yet when certain actions lead to imperfection, you're saying it's not possible...it's either one or the other...a person remains perfect, regardless of their actions or they don't...the evidence leads to the latter...
 
Elvira said:
Oh, but I did address it...you are assuming once perfect, always perfect, and that is just not the case where free will is concerned...you are substituting a personal concept that goes contrary to fact..God’s intelligent creatures are granted free moral agency, the privilege and responsibility of making a personal decision as to the course they will take...Deut 30:19, 20; Joshua 24:15

It is evident that this was the case with the first human pair, so that their devotion to God could be subject to test...Gen. 2:15-17; 3:2, 3...as their Maker, Jehovah knew what he wanted of them, and from the Scriptures it is clear that he wanted, not an automatic, virtually mechanical obedience, but worship and service that sprang from hearts and minds motivated by genuine love...Deut 30:15, 16; 1 Chron. 28:9; 29:17; John 4:23, 24...if Adam and his wife had lacked the ability to choose in this matter, they would not have met God’s requirements, they would not have been complete, perfect, according to his standards...

Perfection as it relates to humans is a relative perfection, limited to the human sphere...though created perfect, Adam could not go beyond the limits assigned him by his Creator...he could not eat dirt, gravel, or wood without suffering ill effec... if he tried to breathe water instead of air, he would drown...similarly, if he allowed his mind and heart to feed on wrong thoughts, this would lead to entertaining wrong desires and finally bring sin and death...James 1:14, 15; Genesis 1:29; Matthew 4:4

As for babies who die, yes they will be given the chance to prove themselves one way or the other...in the resurrection...

I've addressed how man is made in God's image numerous times before...in our ability to exercise justice, love, and mercy, though in a limited sense, not to the extent God does...

FYI, if you disregard what Scripture has to say on these matters, you will never understand, no matter how many times it is explained to you...
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So perfection is what god says it is? And how do we know what his standards of perfection are? In essence, man was not created perfect, because man was not made equal to god. The meaning of perfect is not very precise as you present it.
 
Elvira said:
You are saying perfection requires action to prove and yet when certain actions lead to imperfection, you're saying it's not possible...it's either one or the other...a person remains perfect, regardless of their actions or they don't...the evidence leads to the latter...
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So what exactly is perfection? How can you remain perfect regardless of actions? How do you know what perfection is? It doesn't mean anything the way you present it. You just take someone else's word for it and have no ability to know perfection if you see it.
 
devildavid said:
So perfection is what god says it is? And how do we know what his standards of perfection are? In essence, man was not created perfect, because man was not made equal to god. The meaning of perfect is not very precise as you present it.
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It is precise with what the Bible says it is...try reading it and you'll see...if you're not open to that we have nothing further to discuss...
 
Elvira said:
It is precise with what the Bible says it is...try reading it and you'll see...if you're not open to that we have nothing further to discuss...
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Where does it say that adam and eve were perfect in the bible?? Just as long as you are making a claim about what the Bible says. Give chapter and verse.
 
RAMOSS said:
Where does it say that adam and eve were perfect in the bible?? Just as long as you are making a claim about what the Bible says. Give chapter and verse.
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Again, you would have to read some of the Christian Greek Scriptures so you wouldn't be interested...
 
Elvira said:
Again, you would have to read some of the Christian Greek Scriptures so you wouldn't be interested...
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If Adam and Eve are supposed to be perfect, then why did god take billions of years to get the design right? And why was a bipedal mammal chosen over the other types of creatures that god created.
 
Elvira said:
It is precise with what the Bible says it is...try reading it and you'll see...if you're not open to that we have nothing further to discuss...
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The bible is interpreted differently by many. It is not as precise as you claim.
 
Elvira said:
Adam and Eve were perfect but ignorant of the consequences of their actions...we are not...we have much experience to go on...
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They certainly knew immediately they were out of fellowship with G-d as they hid from Him.
 
I certainly believe in "free will". Each day you are given, you have a choice.

I also believe those who come to the knowledge, understanding, wisdom of G-d doesn't just happen because someone talked to them about it or that they were raised in a certain faith. I believe it takes the Holy Spirit to plow the ground of that heart and make it ready to receive a message of a personal relationship with
G-d.

So my proposal to my fellow believers here at DP is when someone mocks your faith, understand that no matter how you respond your words have no power.
Instead I propose that all believers when they read such a post to pray for that person out of love for him or her. If you don't have the love part then the prayer is useless. Love is key.

Let go and let G-d.
 
Elvira said:
Again, you would have to read some of the Christian Greek Scriptures so you wouldn't be interested...
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I woudl be glad to discuss 'greek Christian Scriptures'. Somehow, I don't think you know Greek. Back up your claims. Prove it.
 
vesper said:
They certainly knew immediately they were out of fellowship with G-d as they hid from Him.
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Yet, they were not kicked out of the Garden of Eden until they lied about it. They didn't understand until they ate from the fruit, and therefore were not responsible.. but once they knew, and lied about it, then they got kicked out.
 
Man created god, then man created way to worship his god, then man created a mouth piece for this god who spoke for this god. The more punitive and destructive the people, the more punitive and destructive the god. Then they justify their actions by claiming that their god demanded it.
 
devildavid said:
So what exactly is perfection? How can you remain perfect regardless of actions? How do you know what perfection is? It doesn't mean anything the way you present it. You just take someone else's word for it and have no ability to know perfection if you see it.
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