Do you believe in demons? [W: 312]

Re: Do you believe in demons?

it's just me said:

I understand them just fine, spare me the superior being routine, and I have heard Dr. Zacharias, who is easily 2-3 times the philosopher you are, speak on this very topic, you are not going to blow him off that easily.

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Then why are you building a straw man, and misapplying them?? Sorry, but a fancy title from someone pushing apogistics does not stop them from using very bad arguments. Your misuse of logical fallacies does not diminish that points I made against his 'moral law giver' argument.. and that argument is horrendously bad. It's good for patting on the back for the believers.. but from a logical and rational point of view, it makes very large mistakes.. by the way, one of those mistakes IS begging the question.

Do you know what that logical fallacy actually is???

Re: Do you believe in demons?

RAMOSS said:

Then why are you building a straw man, and misapplying them?? Sorry, but a fancy title from someone pushing apogistics does not stop them from using very bad arguments. Your misuse of logical fallacies does not diminish that points I made against his 'moral law giver' argument.. and that argument is horrendously bad. It's good for patting on the back for the believers.. but from a logical and rational point of view, it makes very large mistakes.. by the way, one of those mistakes IS begging the question.

Do you know what that logical fallacy actually is???

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So did you read the article at the link? Must the Moral Law Have a Lawgiver? | RZIM

Re: Do you believe in demons?

Elvira said:

Considering believers understand what God's Word says on such matters and unbelievers just don't get it, in spite of how many times it's been explained to them, I would say this thread is evidence of Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 4:4 being true...also of what Jesus said in John 12:37-41...then there is Mark 4:11,12 and Acts 28:27...

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or you just have a bias

Re: Do you believe in demons?

Cisero said:

Can't open the link, blocked by my internet provider.
May you please copy/paste the part that answers this question ? :

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The kernal of the argumetn is this

When you say there is evil, aren’t you admitting there is good? When you accept the existence of goodness, you must affirm a moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. But when you admit to a moral law, you must posit a moral lawgiver

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The begging the question lies in the fact that the conclusion of 'there is a moral law giver' is implied in the existence of Good and evil'. That is the conclusion also. The is 'begging the question', which is circular reasoning. It also ASSUMES that if there is 'good and evil', you must have 'moral law', which is being used as 'objective morality'. That also is circular reasoning. Good and evil could be looked at as subjective moral behavior whose conclusions are shaped by society. That is an alternative viewpoint , which basically shows that the statement 'you must affirm Moral law' is incorrect.

What both Craig and Ravi are Zacharias are doing is using the logical form of argument to do apologistic , and then they call it philosophy. However, there are leaps of logic, premises that can not be shown to be true, and conclusions that can not be tested. Their misapplying of logic is intellectually dishonest.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

nota bene said:

So did you read the article at the link? Must the Moral Law Have a Lawgiver? | RZIM

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Yes, I have. It has very bad arguments in it. Do you want to go on a head to head debate, and deconstruct that essay , paragraph by paragraph?? I would be more delighted to.

What in that piece of writing do YOU find convincing?? Or, haven't you read it? If we have a head to head debate to with anybody that uses that as a source, and deconstruct that essay paragraph by paragraph, I can then be sure at least that people who throw up raw links actually have read the page they want me to read.

Have you actually read it, understood the arguments for it, and can defend the arguments , on a one to three paragraph shot at a time?? Can you? Can It's Just me?? I know that logicman will be unwilling to try.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

Cisero said:

Can't open the link, blocked by my internet provider.
May you please copy/paste the part that answers this question ? :

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It is a HUGE read, and you have to read it all to understand it, otherwise I would have pasted it here. Sorry.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

RAMOSS said:

Yes, I have. It has very bad arguments in it. Do you want to go on a head to head debate, and deconstruct that essay , paragraph by paragraph?? I would be more delighted to.

What in that piece of writing do YOU find convincing?? Or, haven't you read it? If we have a head to head debate to with anybody that uses that as a source, and deconstruct that essay paragraph by paragraph, I can then be sure at least that people who throw up raw links actually have read the page they want me to read.

Have you actually read it, understood the arguments for it, and can defend the arguments , on a one to three paragraph shot at a time?? Can you? Can It's Just me?? I know that logicman will be unwilling to try.

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How did I know you would say this? Debating with you usually consists of you telling me that the text doesn't mean what it clearly says.

You asked the question, and you have your answer. If you think I am going to beat my head against the wall trying to explain anything to you, forget it.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

it's just me said:

How did I know you would say this? Debating with you usually consists of you telling me that the text doesn't mean what it clearly says.

You asked the question, and you have your answer. If you think I am going to beat my head against the wall trying to explain anything to you, forget it.

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Funny.. that is exactly what I am thinking you are doing.. all the time. You do not analyze things in context at all.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

RAMOSS said:

Funny.. that is exactly what I am thinking you are doing.. all the time. You do not analyze things in context at all.

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I don't care what you think. The topic of this thread is the existence of demons, it's not me.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

it's just me said:

How did I know you would say this? Debating with you usually consists of you telling me that the text doesn't mean what it clearly says.

You asked the question, and you have your answer. If you think I am going to beat my head against the wall trying to explain anything to you, forget it.

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I knew you would avoid the question. You are unable to back up your claims with source or logic, nor can you see that different passages can have different interpretations, depending on your axioms. You fail to realize that there are other viewpoints, and you insist that your viewpoint is absolutely correct without being able to look at or understand the alternatives.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

RAMOSS said:

I knew you would avoid the question. You are unable to back up your claims with source or logic, nor can you see that different passages can have different interpretations, depending on your axioms. You fail to realize that there are other viewpoints, and you insist that your viewpoint is absolutely correct without being able to look at or understand the alternatives.

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You have managed to irritate just about everybody on my side of the ball with this, get a clue already, you are just no fun to talk to.

As for me I have one job - to present my Church's teachings the way the Church teaches it, I don't have the luxury of entertaining other points of view, not that I want to anyway.

In other words, I am just as stubborn as you are but I have a reason to be.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

it's just me said:

You have managed to irritate just about everybody on my side of the ball with this, get a clue already, you are just no fun to talk to.

As for me I have one job - to present my Church's teachings the way the Church teaches it, I don't have the luxury of entertaining other points of view, not that I want to anyway.

In other words, I am just as stubborn as you are but I have a reason to be.

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You know, I really don't care if I 'irritate your side of the ball'. If you can support your claims, then you are doing a bad job of presenting the teachings. Presentation is everything. There are ways to present your side without using logical fallacies, poor arguments, ad hominen attacks, and arrogance. Those methods actually detract from your attempts. There is nothing wrong with digging a little deeper, and being able to actually use the texts in context to counter my arguments. It would allow you to get to know the material better, understand that 'there are alternative interpretations' (you should see the arguments about interpretations of the Torah in some Jewish families), and allow you to a more effective communicator of presenting your churches teachings.

It's not 'you got to change your mind'.. it is 'you got to learn the material better, to be able to present better'. I don't expect to change your mind.. nor do I expect you to change my mind. HOWEVER, what I would like is to be challenged about my interpretation, so I have to go through the mental exercise of examining things closer, checking various sources and other interpretations, and go through the process of learning.

There is a big difference between the Jewish tradition of arguing with the Rabbi, and just about everyone else about interpretations.. and the very common Christian tradition of 'you accept what the priest says without question'. The later does not encourage a deeper understanding of the texts.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

RAMOSS said:

Yes, I have. It has very bad arguments in it. Do you want to go on a head to head debate, and deconstruct that essay , paragraph by paragraph?? I would be more delighted to.

What in that piece of writing do YOU find convincing?? Or, haven't you read it? If we have a head to head debate to with anybody that uses that as a source, and deconstruct that essay paragraph by paragraph, I can then be sure at least that people who throw up raw links actually have read the page they want me to read.

Have you actually read it, understood the arguments for it, and can defend the arguments , on a one to three paragraph shot at a time?? Can you? Can It's Just me?? I know that logicman will be unwilling to try.

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I'm not interested in going head-to-head with anybody on this thread, actually. I asked a civil and simple question, and if you want to be pugnacious, find somebody else to have your paragraph deconstruction with.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

nota bene said:

I'm not interested in going head-to-head with anybody on this thread, actually. I asked a civil and simple question, and if you want to be pugnacious, find somebody else to have your paragraph deconstruction with.

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I am not surprised that people who promote that particular piece of apologist won't want to analyze it in any detail. But, yes, I did read it.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

RAMOSS said:

You know, I really don't care if I 'irritate your side of the ball'. If you can support your claims, then you are doing a bad job of presenting the teachings. Presentation is everything. There are ways to present your side without using logical fallacies, poor arguments, ad hominen attacks, and arrogance. Those methods actually detract from your attempts. There is nothing wrong with digging a little deeper, and being able to actually use the texts in context to counter my arguments. It would allow you to get to know the material better, understand that 'there are alternative interpretations' (you should see the arguments about interpretations of the Torah in some Jewish families), and allow you to a more effective communicator of presenting your churches teachings.

It's not 'you got to change your mind'.. it is 'you got to learn the material better, to be able to present better'. I don't expect to change your mind.. nor do I expect you to change my mind. HOWEVER, what I would like is to be challenged about my interpretation, so I have to go through the mental exercise of examining things closer, checking various sources and other interpretations, and go through the process of learning.

There is a big difference between the Jewish tradition of arguing with the Rabbi, and just about everyone else about interpretations.. and the very common Christian tradition of 'you accept what the priest says without question'. The later does not encourage a deeper understanding of the texts.

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Paul once said "Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies...", which is what arguments with atheists generally are. They don't understand and they don't want to understand.

And don't give me that jazz about "supporting my claims". You get what you're supposed to get, this isn't Sunday school. You've already insulted William Lane Craig and Ravi Zacharias, both of whom have probably reached millions, and you expect me to waste my time?

No, when you are interested in having a conversation instead of having a food fight let me know.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

In Benjamin Netanyahu's 2015 speech to Congress he states:

"...The remarkable alliance between Israel and the United States has always been above politics. It must always remain above politics. Because America and Israel, we share a common destiny, the destiny of promised lands that cherish freedom and offer hope..."

This is sort of interesting to me as my last few posts in this thread gives the LDS perspective on how Israel and America are tied together as promise land settings for the ancient and latter day restorations of the kingdom of God. The LDS believe when Christ reigns during the millennium that the two world capitals He will rule from will be the New Jerusalem built in the center of North America(Zion) by the latter day descendants of Joseph and Jerusalem built by the latter day descendants of Judah in Israel. The two nations do have a commonly shared destiny.

I know Benjamin Netanyahu mentioned the 1841 LDS Elder Orson Hyde's dedicatory prayer in his book, is friends with senator Orrin Hatch, and spoke recently at the gathering of LDS and Jewish leaders at the beautiful BYU Jerusalem Center. I think it is likely Netanyahu is aware of the LDS beliefs on this and it may have had an effect on his view of the two nations.

If you are not familiar with Orson Hyde's dedicatory prayer it is pretty interesting. Soon after the first temple was built and dedicated in Kirtland, on Easter Sunday 1836, Christ and several Heavenly messengers visited the temple including the long waited return of Elijah, and Moses who delivered the keys to the gathering of Israel to the prophet, his two counselors, and quorum of 12 apostles. In 1841 the Lord told Joseph to send Orson Hyde to Jerusalem to dedicate the land for the return of the Jews. After much hardship in journeying there he set up an altar on the mount of olives and gave a dedicatory prayer, the transcript of which is found at the following link Orson Hyde's prayer of dedication on the Mount of Olives. Today there is a 5 acre park on the Mount of Olives in his name. It was in celebration of this prayer 175 years later that Jewish and LDS leaders recently gathered at the park and the BYU Jersualem Center.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

it's just me said:

Paul once said "Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies...", which is what arguments with atheists generally are. They don't understand and they don't want to understand.

And don't give me that jazz about "supporting my claims". You get what you're supposed to get, this isn't Sunday school. You've already insulted William Lane Craig and Ravi Zacharias, both of whom have probably reached millions, and you expect me to waste my time?

No, when you are interested in having a conversation instead of having a food fight let me know.

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Debating and understand the text has nothing to do with 'foolish ignorant controversies. it is known as education and understanding. When you are actually willing to back up a claim, let me know. I don't see any evidence you actually have read any of the raw links you have provided,

Re: Do you believe in demons?

Tim the plumber said:

No you would be answering a question.

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It doesn't matter. If falls on deaf ears, like what I give to you.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

Cisero said:

I'm curious as well. Would you answer his question ? Sounds interesting.

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I'm surprised you don't understand objective from God vs. subjective from man. Why is that fuzzy to you?

Re: Do you believe in demons?

RAMOSS said:

Debating and understand the text has nothing to do with 'foolish ignorant controversies. it is known as education and understanding. When you are actually willing to back up a claim, let me know. I don't see any evidence you actually have read any of the raw links you have provided,

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Ramoss, you reject pretty much 100% of the evidences and arguments SCORES of Christians and others have provided you, with little more than jail house lawyering. Which is why it's a waste of time dealing with you and those who think like you.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

Logicman said:

Ramoss, you reject pretty much 100% of the evidences and arguments SCORES of Christians and others have provided you, with little more than jail house lawyering. Which is why it's a waste of time dealing with you and those who think like you.

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If what you presented was evidence, not opinion or dogma that would be one thing. But, what you present isn't evidence.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

RAMOSS said:

If what you presented was evidence, not opinion or dogma that would be one thing. But, what you present isn't evidence.

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Save that hogwash for someone who buys into your folly.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

Logicman said:

Save that hogwash for someone who buys into your folly.

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My, that was a convincing argument. That is equal to every argument you have ever made.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

RAMOSS said:

Debating and understand the text has nothing to do with 'foolish ignorant controversies. it is known as education and understanding. When you are actually willing to back up a claim, let me know. I don't see any evidence you actually have read any of the raw links you have provided,

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I haven't just read them, I have heard the content, and no, I am not interested in trying to prove anything to you.

Re: Do you believe in demons?

Logicman said:

It doesn't matter. If falls on deaf ears, like what I give to you.

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No. When you answer a question it is thought about and shown why it is drivel. That is why you have given up answering anything.