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Adam, Eve, and a Tree [W:86]

Jewish attitude to Christians is agree to disagree. Orthodox Jews never tried to convert Christians to Judaism.

Sadly in the past centuries many Christians tried to convert Jews to Christianity by force.

George Washington was a righteous person who gave Religious Freedom to all people in USA.
 
Hopefully this will enlighten some on what went on in the Garden of Eden, and why Satan was allowed there.

If the garden (of Eden) is a sanctified, holy area, one would think that God would have the sovereign power and desire to keep it that way. Unless, of course, there was a divine purpose involved for Satan to be there. And what would that purpose be? To tempt Adam into the fall so that man would come into the knowledge of good and evil, overcome it through the power Of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and be raised complete in the image and likeness of God. Man cannot be an overcomer until he has something to overcome, like sin and Satan. In my mind, Satan is the “smoking gun” who served the greater purpose of God in the Garden of Eden.

Whereas Genesis 1:26 states that God was to create man in His own image and likeness, Genesis 1:27 shows that man was only created in God’s “image.” It wasn’t until Genesis 3:22 when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he became “like” God.

To Summarize:

1. Man was to be created in the likeness and image of God (Genesis 1:26).

2. Part of this “likeness” was a knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22)

3. For Adam to be truly “like” God, he had to acquire a knowledge of evil.

4. The means to that end was eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

5. To do that a “tempter” was likely needed to entice Adam into sin.

6. God provided, or allowed, Satan as the tempter.

7. God knew in advance what the outcome would be, but allowed it anyway.

8. God knew atonement would be required, and provided Jesus Christ as the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth” (Revelation 13:8).

9. Man achieves the likeness of God, acquires a knowledge of and overcomes evil, partakes of Christ, and is reunited in paradise with God. Man is now an overcomer with a keen knowledge of evil.

The key to all this remains, “Is acquiring a knowledge of good and evil a prerequisite to coming into the likeness and image of God? If the answer is yes, I think Adam has to eat from that tree, and God has to make it happen. If the answer is no, then I think you have to look back to Genesis 3:22 and reconcile that with Genesis 1:26, explaining how Adam is “like” God, but at the same time lacks a knowledge of good and evil. Also, how does man acquire that knowledge without eating of the fruit of that tree?

https://righterreport.com/2013/10/10/satan-in-the-garden-of-eden/
 
Not at all. Ramoss botched it again.

how did he botch it please explain

are you either a Jew or a scholar of the Torah?

No. "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment." - Hebrews 9:27
for the record, I didn't ask what he believed or what you believe for that matter

I asked about the Jewish perspective on reincarnation....
 
how did he botch it please explain

are you either a Jew or a scholar of the Torah?


for the record, I didn't ask what he believed or what you believe for that matter

I asked about the Jewish perspective on reincarnation....

No, he is not. He is just someone who is trying to convert people of the Jewish faith to Christianity.
 
how did he botch it please explain

"If the Old Testament way of salvation was not keeping the Law, then how were people saved? Fortunately, the answer to that question is easily found in Scripture, so there can be no doubt as to what was the Old Testament way of salvation. In Romans 4 the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point—Genesis 15:6, this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given!"

"Paul then shows that David was also saved by faith (Romans 4:6-8, quoting Psalm 32:1-2). Paul continues to establish that the Old Testament way of salvation was through faith alone. In Romans 4:23-24 he writes, “The words ‘it was credited to him’ were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.” In other words, righteousness is “credited” or given to those who have faith in God—Abraham, David, and we all share the same way of salvation." https://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-salvation.html

are you either a Jew or a scholar of the Torah?

I have a B.A. and Th.M. in Biblical Theology. I don't believe Ramoss has any formal education in Biblical Theology

for the record, I didn't ask what he believed or what you believe for that matter

I asked about the Jewish perspective on reincarnation....

I gave you the verse in the Bible that shows there is no reincarnation (Hebrews 13:9). Also, I am unaware of any credible teaching of reincarnation in the Old Testament. If you think there is, please point it out and include scriptural references.

Regarding reincarnation, it seems that the "divine" forgot to give people a decent memory of past lives to learn from their mistakes. In addition, if reincarnation is real, we don't see anyone getting "better". For all the eons that people have supposedly been "reincarnating," the case can be made that they're just getting worse and not "better." The world is in a bigger mess than ever before, and people are now able to murder millions instead of tens or hundreds.

In addition, there's no credible evidence for anyone (much less millions) being reincarnated.

The best example of supposed reincarnation that reincarnation advocates put forth in years past was the case of Bridey Murphy. However, that one was debunked as we see in the linked article.

Bridey Murphy - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

Have you ever done any serious study on the Bible? If not I recommend one do so. As one of my professor once told me, "You have got to know what's in the Bible so you can recognize when the truth or lies are being presented to you."
 
hm

conversion is an interesting phenomenon, quite fascinating actually from a psychological perspective

Ramoss ("He [Logicman] is just someone who is trying to convert people of the Jewish faith to Christianity.") is constantly telling these fairy tales. I'm here to present cogent Biblical arguments according to scripture. If people want to convert to Christianity then fine. If not, fine. But I'm also here to dispell the lies that Ramoss constantly gives out concerning Christianity in the Bible. And I do it by providing a scriptural basis for my arguments.
 
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Sal -

Sorry, but I accidentally gave you the wrong scripture in Post #306.

It should have read, "I gave you the verse in the Bible that shows there is no reincarnation (Hebrews 9:27 - "It is appointed for man to die once, then the Judgment.").
 
Ramoss ("He [Logicman] is just someone who is trying to convert people of the Jewish faith to Christianity.") is constantly telling these fairy tales. I'm here to present cogent Biblical arguments according to scripture. If people want to convert to Christianity then fine. If not, fine. But I'm also here to dispell the lies that Ramoss constantly gives out concerning Christianity in the Bible. And I do it by providing a scriptural basis for my arguments.

Yet.. the problem with your 'scriptural basis' is mistranslated, out of context quotes, ignoring the idioms and language usage of the time frame in which the words were written, and reading through "Jesus colored glasses'. You also use sources that rely on forgeries.
 
Sal -

Sorry, but I accidentally gave you the wrong scripture in Post #306.

It should have read, "I gave you the verse in the Bible that shows there is no reincarnation (Hebrews 9:27 - "It is appointed for man to die once, then the Judgment.").

When it comes to Jewish beliefs, what is written in the Book of Hebrews doesn't matter. The Book of Hebrews is not part of Jewish scripture. Sal was specifically asking about the Jewish beliefs.
 
Yet.. the problem with your 'scriptural basis' is mistranslated, out of context quotes, ignoring the idioms and language usage of the time frame in which the words were written, and reading through "Jesus colored glasses'. You also use sources that rely on forgeries.

Nonsense. You give that same, tired line to everybody when you have nothing else.
 
When it comes to Jewish beliefs, what is written in the Book of Hebrews doesn't matter. The Book of Hebrews is not part of Jewish scripture. Sal was specifically asking about the Jewish beliefs.

Like I told Sal, there is no credible, scriptural basis for reincarnation in the Old Testament. As for Hebrews 9:27, it fairly matches up with Daniel 12:2 from the Old Testament - "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Of course, there must be a JUDGE and Judgment in the afterlife to make that distinction about where a person winds up. Glad to help you out!
 
Nonsense. You give that same, tired line to everybody when you have nothing else.

Yet, if you want to discuss any specific passage in depth, I am more than willing to, and you are not.
 
Yet, if you want to discuss any specific passage in depth, I am more than willing to, and you are not.

I know every interpretation you ever give always ends with Christianity and the New Testament getting thrown under the bus. I can get that from the devil.
 
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I know every interpretation you ever give always ends with Christianity and the New Testament getting thrown under the bus. I can get that from the devil.

I am sure you believe that. But, there is no devil. The 'Satan' of the Jewish religion is not the Devil of Christianity.
 
I am sure you believe that. But, there is no devil. The 'Satan' of the Jewish religion is not the Devil of Christianity.

So who is he? Do tell...
 
So who is he? Do tell...

In the Jewish tradition, first of you , the concept of angel is 'Messenger of God'. Indeed, Malachi (or angel) , literally means 'messenger'. If an angel has a reoccurring role , that angel is often given a title. Literally, in Hebrew, 'Shaitain' means, 'accuser'. Ha-Satan is a title , which is 'The Accuser'. He is sort of the 'prosecuting attorney', and does God's bidding. The role that Ha-Satan has been given by God is to provide bad choices to men. This is not to 'corrupt the soul'... but rather you are given an opportunity to reject bad choices, and do good. By rejecting the bad choices, and doing Good, you can lead a more sanctified life, and be closer to God/the divine. You could say that Ha-satan is more like the imp of the perverse rather than that someone out to steal your soul. In Judaism, there is no hell or pit , or 'lake of fire'. Traditionally, souls that are bad go to Gehenna, to be purified to get to the 'world to come'. These souls are purified for a maximum of a year, and those that can not be purified are then granted oblivion.
 
In Judaism, there is no hell or pit , or 'lake of fire'. Traditionally, souls that are bad go to Gehenna, to be purified to get to the 'world to come'. These souls are purified for a maximum of a year, and those that can not be purified are then granted oblivion.

Where's the scripture that supports 'souls being purified for a maximum of a year'?

And where's the scripture that says 'those that can not be purified are then granted oblivion'?
 
Where's the scripture that supports 'souls being purified for a maximum of a year'?

And where's the scripture that says 'those that can not be purified are then granted oblivion'?

Well, you have to remember that Judaism is not 'scripture alone'. .. but has an oral tradition as well. The first written mention of it is in the Talmud, around 250 to 300 C.E. It's in tractate "Shabbat" page 33b. It was expanded upon in the Zohar , which is a 10th century writing of Jewish mysticism. It is a minority viewpoint, but it exists. It also is mention is the midrash Pesikta Rabbati 53:2. Of course, Midrashes are basically non-binding stories used to teach a lesson and encourage specific behavior.

What the afterlife is,and ideas about it are not part of Jewish dogma, and therefore there are many opinions about it.. none of which are considered absolutely needed for the religion.
 
Well, you have to remember that Judaism is not 'scripture alone'. .. but has an oral tradition as well. The first written mention of it is in the Talmud, around 250 to 300 C.E. It's in tractate "Shabbat" page 33b. It was expanded upon in the Zohar , which is a 10th century writing of Jewish mysticism. It is a minority viewpoint, but it exists. It also is mention is the midrash Pesikta Rabbati 53:2. Of course, Midrashes are basically non-binding stories used to teach a lesson and encourage specific behavior.

What the afterlife is,and ideas about it are not part of Jewish dogma, and therefore there are many opinions about it.. none of which are considered absolutely needed for the religion.

That's what I thought. Some rabbi dreamed it up. Best bet is to stick with the scriptures.
 
That's what I thought. Some rabbi dreamed it up. Best bet is to stick with the scriptures.

The Rabbi's dreamed up the scripture too.
 
Sure, Ramoss. They dream up the prophecies in the scriptures that came to pass too?

We can discuss any propehcy you think is about Jesus from the Jewish scripture you want.. and I can show that it wasn't about Jesus. In a one to one debate. ANytime you want.
 
We can discuss any propehcy you think is about Jesus from the Jewish scripture you want.. and I can show that it wasn't about Jesus. In a one to one debate. ANytime you want.

You've tried many times to discount the Messianic prophecies about Jesus and failed many times.

Even many former Jewish rabbis have accepted what you try to throw under the bus. Here's just one:

The Rabbis' Dilemma

https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v02-n05/the-rabbis-dilemma-a-look-at-isaiah-53/
 
For some reason, many Christians want to impose Christianity on every one. Jews never ever tried to convert Christians to Judaism.

In previous centuries, some Christian churches forced others to convert by violence.

But most American Protestants would not be considered Christian by Catholics and Orthodox Christians.
 
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