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Thread: Deism

  1. #331
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    Re: Deism

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    You're not judging the basic teachings of the religion itself. You're judging historical issues for the most part.

    I think the founders could have found something positive about the basic teachings of Islam. You really have said anything that changes my opinion.
    Well of course I'm judging historical issues in a historical context! How a group works in practice is every bit as important to how they are percieved as their stated beliefs. However beautiful the verses of the Quran might be, however much wisdom may be in the various philosophies within the religion, the sultanates and caliphates of the time were inextricably linked to Islam, as were the Barbary pirates that America had to contend with shortly after her formation. The legal code that accompanied Islam universally in the 1700's, and which is intrinsically tied to the faith even today in many places, cannot be ignored by anyone weighing the merits of the faith, no more than the English monarchy can be ignored by Anglican converts, nor the Pope by Catholic converts.

    While I'm on this topic again, I would like to reaffirm that I have no problem with Muslims, and no more of a problem with Islam than I do with most any other religion in the world. I'm no bigot, even if you might think I am.
    Quote Originally Posted by truthatallcost View Post
    Pepe Booth strikes again.

  2. #332
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    Re: Deism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
    Deism is in a strange place right now for it was VERY popular among intellectuals in the Age of Enlightenment, especially among the Founding Fathers of the US. Today though, it is extremely obscure, and I just know about it be reading some of Voltaire's work and the Internet.

    Deism has its own website here: Welcome To The Deism Site!

    What is your opinion on Deism? I think its a pretty good philosophical belief and I'd follow it...
    I don't know if deism was especially popular amongst the Founding Fathers. At least 50 of the 55 of those at the constitutional convention were orthodox, if not overly zealous, Protestants.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #333
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    Re: Deism

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I don't know if deism was especially popular amongst the Founding Fathers. At least 50 of the 55 of those at the constitutional convention were orthodox, if not overly zealous, Protestants.
    WOuld you care to show your sources on that claim?
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  4. #334
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    Re: Deism

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    WOuld you care to show your sources on that claim?
    Russell Kirk's The Roots of American Order.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #335
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    Re: Deism

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    WOuld you care to show your sources on that claim?
    Here's what you should know:

    Dr. M. E. Bradford of the University of Dallas conducted a study of the Founding Founders to look at this very important question (whether the Founding Fathers were deists or Christians, etc.). He discovered the Founders were members of denominations as follows: twenty-eight Episcopalians, eight Presbyterians, seven Congregationalists, two Lutherans, two Dutch Reformed, two Methodists, two Roman Catholics, and only three deists.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

  6. #336
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    Re: Deism

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Here's what you should know:

    Dr. M. E. Bradford of the University of Dallas conducted a study of the Founding Founders to look at this very important question (whether the Founding Fathers were deists or Christians, etc.). He discovered the Founders were members of denominations as follows: twenty-eight Episcopalians, eight Presbyterians, seven Congregationalists, two Lutherans, two Dutch Reformed, two Methodists, two Roman Catholics, and only three deists.
    There is a problem with that anayalsys. First of all, just because someone belonged to a church didn't mean they weren't deists. Churches were a political and social center in addition to being a religious center

    From https://www.britannica.com/topic/The...ianity-1272214

    One can differentiate a Founding Father influenced by Deism from an orthodox Christian believer by following certain criteria. Anyone seeking the answer should consider at least the following four points. First, an inquirer should examine the Founder’s church involvement. However, because a colonial church served not only religious but also social and political functions, church attendance or service in a governing body (such as an Anglican vestry, which was a state office in colonies such as Maryland, Virginia, and South Carolina) fails to guarantee a Founder’s orthodoxy. But Founders who were believing Christians would nevertheless be more likely to go to church than those influenced by Deism.
    I can list 5 founding fathers whose writings in fact were hostile to mainstream Christianity, whose writings were deistic in nature

    1) George Washington
    2) John Adams
    3) Thomas Paine
    4) Thomas Jefferson
    5) James Madison

    So, right there, that shows Bradford was cherry picking data... Since, for example, George Washington was nominally an anglican, but was much more in line with deistic thought.

    Many more were at least very influenced by Deistic thought. A bit better criteria would be to see which of the founding fathers were also Freemasons.
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  7. #337
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    Re: Deism

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post

    I can list 5 founding fathers whose writings in fact were hostile to mainstream Christianity, whose writings were deistic in nature

    1) George Washington
    2) John Adams
    3) Thomas Paine
    4) Thomas Jefferson
    5) James Madison

    So, right there, that shows Bradford was cherry picking data... Since, for example, George Washington was nominally an anglican, but was much more in line with deistic thought.
    Paine, yeah, but the rest is horse manure, Ramoss.

    Was Washington a Christian? Yes! https://wallbuilders.com/george-washington-christian/

    Thomas Jefferson

    Thomas Jefferson was hardly speaking from a strict deist standpoint when he said:

    “Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781)

    Now, why should Jefferson tremble for his country if God does not involve himself in the affairs of men and nations?

    And then there’s this:

    “I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessities and comforts of life.” (Monday, March 4, 1805, in his 2nd Inaugural Address)

    Another oblique reference to the Bible. Remember, a strict deist was one who believed God was like a watchmaker, who wound up the universe and thereafter did not involve himself in the affairs of men and nations. Jefferson obviously believed otherwise.

    More examples busting your claims in the link: https://righterreport.com/2014/06/15...athers-deists/

    Nice try, though.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

  8. #338
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    Re: Deism

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Paine, yeah, but the rest is horse manure, Ramoss.

    Was Washington a Christian? Yes! https://wallbuilders.com/george-washington-christian/

    Thomas Jefferson

    Thomas Jefferson was hardly speaking from a strict deist standpoint when he said:

    “Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781)

    Now, why should Jefferson tremble for his country if God does not involve himself in the affairs of men and nations?

    And then there’s this:

    “I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessities and comforts of life.” (Monday, March 4, 1805, in his 2nd Inaugural Address)

    Another oblique reference to the Bible. Remember, a strict deist was one who believed God was like a watchmaker, who wound up the universe and thereafter did not involve himself in the affairs of men and nations. Jefferson obviously believed otherwise.

    More examples busting your claims in the link: https://righterreport.com/2014/06/15...athers-deists/

    Nice try, though.
    Funny how that blog trys to redefine things.. and is SO inaccurate. The 'wallbuilders.com' also lies though it teeth. .. because it tries to distort the historical record and reports about George Washington. Anybody who quotes David Barton for historical information is either ignorant or lying.
    No one needs a war more than a Politician who is low in the Polls.

  9. #339
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    Re: Deism

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    Funny how that blog trys to redefine things.. and is SO inaccurate. The 'wallbuilders.com' also lies though it teeth. .. because it tries to distort the historical record and reports about George Washington. Anybody who quotes David Barton for historical information is either ignorant or lying.
    I don't know anything substantial about "Wallbuilders.com" but I have read the writings of George Washington and I must say sir you should check out for yourself what he has been quoted in print and in speech before making further comment because he bests you.

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    Re: Deism

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    I don't know anything substantial about "Wallbuilders.com" but I have read the writings of George Washington and I must say sir you should check out for yourself what he has been quoted in print and in speech before making further comment because he bests you.
    Well, when it comes to the quotes from George Washington, David Barton uses manufactured quotes.. ... and makes claims that can about what various founding fathers allegedly said that either can not be verified, or has shown to be false. "wallbuilders' is David Barton's web site, and a lot of the fake founding father quotes have come from him.
    No one needs a war more than a Politician who is low in the Polls.

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