Is religious eternity infinite? Or merely protracted, but finite?

The religious concept of "afterlife" is often presented as a long, long time.

But is the religious concept of eternity intended to be infinite? Time without end?

Infinite time is a very long time, particularly for a sentient being.

And one in "Heaven" would be exposed to a billion trillion eons; and as a percentage of infinite time, it would not yet have begun. A billion trillion is zero% of infinity.

The Topic Question:
I "eternity" as religion presents it, intended as infinite?
Or is it merely an indefinitely long time, until ... ? Judgement Day?

And then what?

Meanwhile astrophysicists that used to expect "the big crunch", now know that our universe is not merely expanding.

BUT !!

The rate of the expansion is accelerating.
Thus any "big crunch" (the opposite end of the Big Bang) would seem unlikely.

Instead astrophysicists expect cosmic heat death, the state of the cosmos after the energy flux in the cosmos drops to zero; when there are no longer stars which can maintain an energy gradient to sustain life.

How will that affect those in Heaven & Hell?

- Not affect them at all?

- Coincide with Judgement Day, or some other religious stage?

- other?

sear said:

The religious concept of "afterlife" is often presented as a long, long time.

But is the religious concept of eternity intended to be infinite? Time without end?

Infinite time is a very long time, particularly for a sentient being.

And one in "Heaven" would be exposed to a billion trillion eons; and as a percentage of infinite time, it would not yet have begun. A billion trillion is zero% of infinity.

The Topic Question:
I "eternity" as religion presents it, intended as infinite?
Or is it merely an indefinitely long time, until ... ? Judgement Day?

And then what?

Meanwhile astrophysicists that used to expect "the big crunch", now know that our universe is not merely expanding.

BUT !!

The rate of the expansion is accelerating.
Thus any "big crunch" (the opposite end of the Big Bang) would seem unlikely.

Instead astrophysicists expect cosmic heat death, the state of the cosmos after the energy flux in the cosmos drops to zero; when there are no longer stars which can maintain an energy gradient to sustain life.

How will that affect those in Heaven & Hell?

- Not affect them at all?

- Coincide with Judgement Day, or some other religious stage?

- other?

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In religion, especially funerals, it is said that you will meet the person again in the hereafter. Trying to use logic, I wonder what will allow me to recognize the person/family member in the afterlife. After all my, say grandmother, knew many people before I ever came along. It's conceivable that they would look forward to seeing her as well. Since all of these people knew the grandmother at different stages of her life, what form would she take so that she was recognizable to all who wanted to visit with her once more?
I get it, I have too much time on my hands......

"I get it, I have too much time on my hands......" R #2

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It's not you.
It's the ones that came up with the "eternal life" thing.

Care to discuss Pascal's Wager?

sear said:

It's not you.
It's the ones that came up with the "eternal life" thing.

Care to discuss Pascal's Wager?

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Thanks for the reference, I had never heard of Pascal, but that was the arguement presented to me in a discussion years ago. There was not a name attributed to the point of view.

Look around at the insufferable bigots and prudes masquerading as Christians today. If they get to an afterlife, then sharing it with them would seem like eternity even if it wasn't!

well gents, the religion bidness has been around a long time. Please pardon my ironic wording, but they seem to have it down to a science by now.

I acknowledge the attribute is dubious. But the sentiment seems well worth considering:

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." sometimes attributed to Seneca the Younger (c.3 BCE - CE 65)

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sear said:

The religious concept of "afterlife" is often presented as a long, long time.

But is the religious concept of eternity intended to be infinite? Time without end?

Infinite time is a very long time, particularly for a sentient being.

And one in "Heaven" would be exposed to a billion trillion eons; and as a percentage of infinite time, it would not yet have begun. A billion trillion is zero% of infinity.

The Topic Question:
I "eternity" as religion presents it, intended as infinite?
Or is it merely an indefinitely long time, until ... ? Judgement Day?

And then what?

Meanwhile astrophysicists that used to expect "the big crunch", now know that our universe is not merely expanding.

BUT !!

The rate of the expansion is accelerating.
Thus any "big crunch" (the opposite end of the Big Bang) would seem unlikely.

Instead astrophysicists expect cosmic heat death, the state of the cosmos after the energy flux in the cosmos drops to zero; when there are no longer stars which can maintain an energy gradient to sustain life.

How will that affect those in Heaven & Hell?

- Not affect them at all?

- Coincide with Judgement Day, or some other religious stage?

- other?

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Eternity takes a while to get through.

jG #7

You've reminded me:

"... history takes a long time ..." U.S. President Bush speaking to Chris Wallace, broadcast on FNS 08/02/10

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Manc Skipper said:

Look around at the insufferable bigots and prudes masquerading as Christians today. If they get to an afterlife, then sharing it with them would seem like eternity even if it wasn't!

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In every culture, in every theological bent (or atheistic for that matter), there are insufferable bigots and prudes, and this has happened for thousands of years. It is not new for today. It is not new to Christianity (or any religion for that matter). If it was new today, then you would not have warning from Jesus from 2000 years ago about it about the Pharisees.

sear said:

The religious concept of "afterlife" is often presented as a long, long time.

But is the religious concept of eternity intended to be infinite? Time without end?

Infinite time is a very long time, particularly for a sentient being.

And one in "Heaven" would be exposed to a billion trillion eons; and as a percentage of infinite time, it would not yet have begun. A billion trillion is zero% of infinity.

The Topic Question:
I "eternity" as religion presents it, intended as infinite?
Or is it merely an indefinitely long time, until ... ? Judgement Day?

And then what?

Meanwhile astrophysicists that used to expect "the big crunch", now know that our universe is not merely expanding.

BUT !!

The rate of the expansion is accelerating.
Thus any "big crunch" (the opposite end of the Big Bang) would seem unlikely.

Instead astrophysicists expect cosmic heat death, the state of the cosmos after the energy flux in the cosmos drops to zero; when there are no longer stars which can maintain an energy gradient to sustain life.

How will that affect those in Heaven & Hell?

- Not affect them at all?

- Coincide with Judgement Day, or some other religious stage?

- other?

Click to expand...

Yep. Eternity is a long time.

Maybe you just get half way there every day and thus never actually arrive.

Eternity is, by definition, infinite.

Maybe the next life is also finite, as we know this one is.

Maybe there's a third life, and a fourth.

Maybe we're currently in Kindergarten, learning to get along with each other. The successful ones will graduate to first grade, while the rest will repeat Kindergarten until we get it right.

We currently have no more idea what it's like to have graduated from that lengthy schooling than a Kindergartner has what it's like to be an adult.

But, all of that is wild speculation, of course. Some day, if there actually is an afterlife, we'll know. If there isn't, we'll never know.

So, why worry about it now?

Manc Skipper said:

Look around at the insufferable bigots and prudes masquerading as Christians today. If they get to an afterlife, then sharing it with them would seem like eternity even if it wasn't!

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Even better, look around and notice all the Christians and others of faith and secularists too who aren't masquerading as anything and who are wonderful, loving, and decent people.

Time is an illusion, really there is no time, only a growing repetition.

If I am writing and I forget a thought I have to wait until the electrons in my brain turn regain a similar pattern, if I want to get up early and have a good day I have to wait until the earth turns to this point again, maybe I have to wait a week, or month or year or years to have; same nice day again.

Vedic prayers speak of being bitten by the black snake of time. If time is cyclical, or circular the body of the snake represents us spiraling through the universe, only to be caught by the tail and have to go back the whole ways to the beginning. This is what time is in the compounds.

The bigger you are the more time it takes to move, an observer spinning on an electron goes trillions of years and only milliseconds have gone by, time is relative, up is the future down is the past. You can only go so far into the past, but the future is infinite.

Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad-Gita, "Never was there a time when you or I or all these kings did not exist, and never in the future will any of cease to be."

Heaven and Hell are temporary, you can go there for millennia and be back tomorrow, in millennia, or only be there a second and this world pass away and its inhabitants advance beyond you, set up station above you and get bigger than you, this slows them down and they run in to you.

There is a permanent Heaven and a permanent Hell, the second death, your God Head still goes on, so it's really no escape, but whatever you are ceases to be. One could postulate that there was a third and fourth death etc. Death is the Third Throne-room across river river Styx flowing left to right by my observation. Don't let the current drag you downstream (you'll be dead!) Don't step away from the throne either unless you have duty like biting off enemy heads and spitting them into the river Styx. You can get turned into a stone up there.

Permanent Heaven is the Ascension, going back to Godhead, the Rapture, the Resurrection the Judgements, even the Tribulation; are occurring all the time and can occur at any time for anyone.

IMO, we'll all find out soon enough.

Eternity is not a temporal state at all.
Eternity is a-temporal.
Eternity is outside time.
Eternity is outside space; it is a-spatial.
Eternity is therefore neither infinite nor finite.
Eternity is a state, whether of being or of non-being or of both is the question death answers.

And by the by Exquisitor and the Hindus are right: time is an illusion.

"Eternity is, by definition, infinite." Dn #12

"Eternity is not a temporal state at all." A #16

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Now you may better understand the problem.

We need a tie-breaker, preferably one with some credential.

eternity (î-tûr´nî-tê) noun
plural eternities
Time without beginning or end; infinite time.

[Middle English eternite, from Old French, from Latin aeternitâs, from aeternus, eternal. See eternal.]

Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

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I'd say The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language has a credential.

The authors of the many books of the Holy Bible could have defined their terms. I have never seen any such translation.

BUT !!

These texts have been scrutinized, studied, translated, and studied some more literally for millennia; countless times, by some of the most brilliant scholars known to mankind.

To my knowledge there's never been a major dispute about the meaning of the Biblical term "eternal".

"These [Biblical] books existed in the oral tradition for hundreds of thousands of years. They finally wrote them down in Aramaic, later translated into Greek, & then Latin, and finally English, hundreds and hundreds of revisions: and this is supposed to be absolute direct word of God." actor John Fugelsang

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The biblical definition of eternal is without end.
However eternal happens outside of time.

"The biblical definition of eternal is without end.
However eternal happens outside of time." l #18

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a) Is a beginning an end? Every pencil I've ever seen has TWO ends. I've never seen a one-ended pencil, or a one-sided coin for that matter.
Genesis proposes a beginning; thus the Biblical inspiration for my question.

b) Eternity is an expression of an infinite parameter.
A parameter of what?
- Length? Greater than 47 inches?
Nope.
- Weight? 50 lbs.?
No weigh.
- $wealth? $1.49?
Negatory.

Eternity is BY DEFINITION a parameter of time. Infinite TIME!!

I appreciate you struggling so clearly conscientiously with these notions.

But the notion of " eternal happens outside of time " is, please pardon the impiety, religious mumbo-jumbo.

The notion of time outside time is an intrinsic absurdity.

sear said:

I'd say The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language has a credential.

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3.
a. The timeless state following death.
b. The afterlife; immortality.

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The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition copyright ©2017 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=eternity

"3.
a. The timeless state following death.
b. The afterlife; immortality.

The American Heritage®" posted by A #20

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Splendid.
I do not refute AHD on those definitions.

But:

Tell me what you think of time, and I will tell you what I think of you. St. Thomas Aquinas

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It's rather more a fundamental issue of determining which definition applies.

It is an issue familiar to astrophysicists, that the situation of the observer determines the observation.

Travel past Earth at 99.9% the speed of light (SOL) and Earth will appear to pass by very quickly (186K mps).

But some astrophysicists claim, to the terrestrial observer, the space traveler @vSOL may appear to be virtually stationary.

"3.
a. The timeless state following death.

The American Heritage®"

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Subjectively perhaps so, to the deceased.

But what about to the external, objective observer?

The proof that AHD def. #3a is religious rather than scientific is history.
There are people that have died. Thomas Jefferson is dead. To him, it may seem "timeless", the parameter specified in def. #3a.

BUT !!

Is the cosmos now actually devoid of time, simply because TJ has become ambient?

I don't think so, no matter what TJ's subjective experience (if any).

AND !!

If the religious meaning of eternity is merely a subjective impression of infinite time, however illusory, and that just as time began (with Genesis or the Big Bang), time will just as surely end then it is not infinite.

“Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?” ― Epicurus (341-270BC)

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sear said:

BUT !!

The rate of the expansion is accelerating.
Thus any "big crunch" (the opposite end of the Big Bang) would seem unlikely.

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In terms of physics, time and space are not stable physics units, instead velocity/speed is! Humans have no concept about how time/space goes unstable. Our conception only applies when time (and space) is in its stable form. When time goes unstable, it's completely out of humans' comprehension. In a nutshell, humans don't understand what time is. We only understand time in its stable form.

That said, by applying our limited knowledge about time, eternity is infinite. Big Bang is just about this universe we can speculate. Heaven of Christianity isn't necessarily located inside our current universe. It is in a space sun is no longer used as the source of light, as in the book of Revelation it says that God Himself is the source light. Regarding to space, whether our current speculation of this universe still applies remains unknown to us.

H #22
I appreciate your contribution here. I'm not entirely clear what you have in mind; but I'm guessing it's Relativity, which Einstein fully explained with his two theories.

Tell me what you think of time, and I will tell you what I think of you. St. Thomas Aquinas

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Newton & Einstein presented two very different definitions.
Einstein didn't really trump Newton. Newtonian physics is still taught at college level.

BUT !!

We have not one set of physical laws, or even two; but at least 3.
Not to detract from either Newton or Einstein, but quantum (particle) physics adheres to rules that don't apply to the other two.

But surely it is Relativity which most profoundly tinkers with our terrestrial (Newtonian) expectations of space / time. *

"Almost all relativistic paradoxes stem from our attempts to import newtonian thinking into relativistic framework." Victor Danilchenko

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* One exception to this is the quantum leap, where a quanta can seem to skip from location A to separate location B instantaneously, without having spent any apparent time between.
In Newtonian physics time paradoxes have mainly to do with dating. On a good date, time flies. On a bad date time slows to a crawl.

"Time flies like the wind.
Fruit flies like bananas." Groucho Marx

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sear said:

It is an issue familiar to astrophysicists, that the situation of the observer determines the observation.

Travel past Earth at 99.9% the speed of light (SOL) and Earth will appear to pass by very quickly (186K mps).

But some astrophysicists claim, to the terrestrial observer, the space traveler @vSOL may appear to be virtually stationary.

Subjectively perhaps so, to the deceased.

But what about to the external, objective observer?

The proof that AHD def. #3a is religious rather than scientific is history.
There are people that have died. Thomas Jefferson is dead. To him, it may seem "timeless", the parameter specified in def. #3a.

BUT !!

Is the cosmos now actually devoid of time, simply because TJ has become ambient?

I don't think so, no matter what TJ's subjective experience (if any).

AND !!

If the religious meaning of eternity is merely a subjective impression of infinite time, however illusory, and that just as time began (with Genesis or the Big Bang), time will just as surely end then it is not infinite.

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Science has nothing to tell us about eternity, which is rather a religious or poetic notion.

And the concepts of subjectivity and objectivity have no coherent role to play in unpacking the concept of eternity. Eternity as a concept applies to a spiritual state, of which we know nothing really except that it is not the natural world of science and psychology.

A #24

a) I appreciate the distinction.

b) Though yours is a point well worth making, I wouldn't phrase it quite that way.

"Science has nothing to tell us about eternity, which is rather a religious or poetic notion." A #24

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In religious matters, it is surely the religious definition that applies.

BUT !!

There's no law against at least comparing the scientific definition.

"Believe nothing,
No matter where you read it,
Or who has said it,
Not even if I have said it,
Unless it agrees with your own reason
And your own common sense." Buddha

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"And the concepts of subjectivity and objectivity have no coherent role to play in unpacking the concept of eternity."

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But are not immune to the test of it.

You seem to be implying that perhaps I take the position that in such specific matter a scientific definition can trump a religious definition, EVEN IN THE ART OF RELIGION.
1) I never asserted that.

2) I don't recall ever having implied that. SURELY not intentionally.

BUT !!

Even in religion, "words mean things*".
Is there any absolute requirement that we hit the Cosmic Automatic Destruct button if a religious definition does not contradict a scientific definition?

"Eternity as a concept applies to a spiritual state"

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FABULOUS!!

Whatever you say!!

Is that a reason to not even CONSIDER the religious definition of the word? In exclusively religious context?

If we prohibit defining such terms, a language composed of undefined terms is in the absolute most literal sense is meaningless; REGARDLESS of whether the words are religious, or scientific.

* Rush Limbaugh