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Thread: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

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    Re: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    By examining the results of an action.
    And how do the results get weighed?

    That is true. But they quantify morality. An attempt to define what is moral. And they can vary greatly depending on time and culture.
    But none of them are the source of our feelings about morality.
    Agree and disagree. I agree they try and quantify morality and but that is no different than any other group. I can look at this board and see people from all different demographic groups expressing the concept that their sense of morality is superior to the other.
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    Re: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Enough. And probably a few more to come. Still no evidence just people like you who falsely claim it is there if you look for it. But you never actually will provide it.
    Such as?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishking View Post
    And how do the results get weighed?
    Considering i am making the argument that it is all subjective then the point would be, you tell me.

    Agree and disagree. I agree they try and quantify morality and but that is no different than any other group. I can look at this board and see people from all different demographic groups expressing the concept that their sense of morality is superior to the other.
    I do not think any one group has the moral high ground. I agree that some do think there morality is superior or at least based on objective facts. But morality is simply a subjective opinion. What gives us a sense of morality is our empathy an altruism. How we express our morality is cultural.

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    Re: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Such as?
    That is up to you. As far as i am concerned it is your god therefor your right to explain it. i remain an ignostic until you do.

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    Re: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Considering i am making the argument that it is all subjective then the point would be, you tell me.
    Well that's my point. Now, those who have their religious books can point to that and say, "See? They have no real moral foundation." and in a philosophical sense, they aren't inaccurate. That's not to say that a hardcore atheist can't have what we would generally consider high moral standing and a religious person cannot be a moral reprobate. But, in a sense, they have somewhat of a point as a written book is much less subjective.

    I do not think any one group has the moral high ground. I agree that some do think there morality is superior or at least based on objective facts. But morality is simply a subjective opinion. What gives us a sense of morality is our empathy an altruism. How we express our morality is cultural.
    I disagree here. I think everyone has their own sense of moral superiority. That's really just who we are as humans. I'm sure you've run into plenty of people who's moral ideology repulses you and you believe yours to be better. I would probably even agree with you, more often than not. However, the point still stands, especially when you start doing comparisons between culture. I'm sure you think the egregious human rights violations that exist on a systemic level in countries like Saudi Arabia are pretty horrible and that say...women being treated as property is bad and that your position on equality is better. Again...I'd agree with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    There is no such thing as right to life...for any stage of human life.

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    Re: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

    " Removable Mind View Post
    There is no such thing as right to life...for any stage of human life." #35

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that
    they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that
    among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.— TJ / DOI
    Your quarrel RM is with Thomas Jefferson, not me. I simply quoted him.
    "The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is." Mary Pettibone Poole

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    Re: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    That is up to you. As far as i am concerned it is your god therefor your right to explain it. i remain an ignostic until you do.
    I just asked you what books you've read.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishking View Post
    Well that's my point. Now, those who have their religious books can point to that and say, "See? They have no real moral foundation." and in a philosophical sense, they aren't inaccurate. That's not to say that a hardcore atheist can't have what we would generally consider high moral standing and a religious person cannot be a moral reprobate. But, in a sense, they have somewhat of a point as a written book is much less subjective.
    Not in a philosophical sense as religion is a theology, not a philosophy. Big difference as the former only tells you what to think and the latter should only enable you to think. There are many guides and books around for atheists to pick up on moral standards that are far better discussions than a book that does nothing more than contradict it self to the point where it can create a moral standard of helping little old ladies across the street too walking into an abortion clinic and shooting doctors. I would disagree that the bible gives any theist any sort of point.


    I disagree here. I think everyone has their own sense of moral superiority. That's really just who we are as humans. I'm sure you've run into plenty of people who's moral ideology repulses you and you believe yours to be better. I would probably even agree with you, more often than not. However, the point still stands, especially when you start doing comparisons between culture. I'm sure you think the egregious human rights violations that exist on a systemic level in countries like Saudi Arabia are pretty horrible and that say...women being treated as property is bad and that your position on equality is better. Again...I'd agree with you.
    True, human nature to think better of yourself than others. Some carry that thought to far though and you have the typical alpha male trying to exert dominance. I get back to that bench mark of, does it cause harm. As subjective as even that is it is still the best of standards that can be applied. But harm is relative. A woman who freely agrees to be a second class person to her husbands dominance may be sen as harm to feminist rights of independence. But it is her choice so no harm to her. On the other hand if the husband is beating her then her saying it is her choice becomes suspect and some outside opinion of harm then becomes relevant.
    This is why it really is a matter of having the ability to ampathise with rather than exert ones own beliefs and be altruistic enough to interfere or stay away. Empathy and altruism is what guides our own personal beliefs in morality not books.

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    Re: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I just asked you what books you've read.
    For what purpose? It is enough that i have read books. Do not make the usual mistake of theists by claiming that the answer is out there written in a book unless you can actually copy and paste the written words that declare it so.

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    Re: Religion: is the cultural compulsion a theological obligation?

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Not in a philosophical sense as religion is a theology, not a philosophy. Big difference as the former only tells you what to think and the latter should only enable you to think. There are many guides and books around for atheists to pick up on moral standards that are far better discussions than a book that does nothing more than contradict it self to the point where it can create a moral standard of helping little old ladies across the street too walking into an abortion clinic and shooting doctors. I would disagree that the bible gives any theist any sort of point.
    I don't think it to be overly contradictory. That aside, yes there are books that atheists can pick up but there is no "the book". I mean, we can see this if we look at our society on a macro level. Social conservatives are not conservative because they don't change their views at all but they do change them much slower than the secular demographics do. That's the concept behind conservatism, it changes less easily/more rigid.

    True, human nature to think better of yourself than others. Some carry that thought to far though and you have the typical alpha male trying to exert dominance. I get back to that bench mark of, does it cause harm. As subjective as even that is it is still the best of standards that can be applied. But harm is relative. A woman who freely agrees to be a second class person to her husbands dominance may be sen as harm to feminist rights of independence. But it is her choice so no harm to her. On the other hand if the husband is beating her then her saying it is her choice becomes suspect and some outside opinion of harm then becomes relevant.
    This is why it really is a matter of having the ability to ampathise with rather than exert ones own beliefs and be altruistic enough to interfere or stay away. Empathy and altruism is what guides our own personal beliefs in morality not books.
    Again, why does empathy have to rate as a more valid premise? Is a shark or lion so concerned about such things? Natural selection seems to be based on somewhat of a premise of lack of empathy. Those who are the fittest survive and pass on their genes over those that aren't. You could almost make a case for our modern technology, combined with empathy, is a negative force to the process, if you wanted to look at it coldly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    There is no such thing as right to life...for any stage of human life.

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