My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into hell

phattonez · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
I accept Jesus, I have partaken of the Eucharist, and would do so again in the right setting. The last Church I attended, about half way through, the Priest spent ten min hawking the wares of a traveling shyster salesman selling knick knacks and videos in the back of the Church and another 10 min basically begging for money.

I would be just as aggravated. That said, I would still receive the Eucharist from him. The holiness of the priest does not impact the validity of the sacrament. Jesus is there, Jesus wants me to receive Him, so I receive Him. That said, I avoid these relaxed, essentially heretical priests.

When my ex left me, I went to the church to get them to acknowledge the divorce, they refused and insisted we needed to get back together and try again.

Uhm, dude, it was OVER, to this DAY they still reject it.

What do you want them to do? There is no divorce in the Church. That's a teaching straight from Christ.

Renae · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
I would be just as aggravated. That said, I would still receive the Eucharist from him. The holiness of the priest does not impact the validity of the sacrament. Jesus is there, Jesus wants me to receive Him, so I receive Him. That said, I avoid these relaxed, essentially heretical priests.

What do you want them to do? There is no divorce in the Church. That's a teaching straight from Christ.

I believe the church is too stuck on rules and regulations and took hung up on money. I pray, nightly and hope Jesus will forgive me if my choices have brought offense.

phattonez · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
I believe the church is too stuck on rules and regulations and took hung up on money. I pray, nightly and hope Jesus will forgive me if my choices have brought offense.

I'm not sure exactly what being too stuck on rules means. Jesus tells us to "be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect." So clearly He has set a high moral bar for us. Permissiveness isn't a word that can in any way be used to describe the teaching of Jesus.

Perhaps you have a more specific qualm?

Renae · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
I'm not sure exactly what being too stuck on rules means. Jesus tells us to "be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect." So clearly He has set a high moral bar for us. Permissiveness isn't a word that can in any way be used to describe the teaching of Jesus.

Perhaps you have a more specific qualm?

I have never been a biblical literalist, and question some of the church's teachings. This goes back to my childhood and not understanding why a loving God would let a young mother suffer so cruelly and needlessly, her death rocked my family's world. From my father being a broken man to my sister refusing to talk about mom to this day. That shattered my blind adherence. Hell I have to keep my thought as bland as possible lest I bust out in tears, some 33 years later.

phattonez · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
I have never been a biblical literalist, and question some of the church's teachings. This goes back to my childhood and not understanding why a loving God would let a young mother suffer so cruelly and needlessly, her death rocked my family's world. From my father being a broken man to mys ister refusing to talk about mom. That shattered my blind adherence.

The problem of evil is something that every religion has to deal with. From what I've found only Christianity offers an answer, though even that answer doesn't make the pain associated with pain any better.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-problem-of-suffering-reconsidered

C.S. Lewis said:
"Is it credible that such extremities of torture should be necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary, then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then these tortures are necessary. For no even moderately good Being could possibly inflict or permit them if they weren’t"

Renae · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
The problem of evil is something that every religion has to deal with. From what I've found only Christianity offers an answer, though even that answer doesn't make the pain associated with pain any better.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-problem-of-suffering-reconsidered

Those empty words against the backdrop of the injustice I know first hand.

phattonez · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
Those empty words against the backdrop of the injustice I know first hand.

What conclusion would you draw? If there was nothing to be gained from suffering, then either there is no God, or God is permitting needless suffering.

Or, rather, our suffering is efficacious, much like the suffering of Jesus on the cross (an appropriate image, especially today on Good Friday), and the suffering of Mary watching her son die on the cross. I'm not aware of any other religion that offers a solution to suffering, that brings good out of it.

Renae · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
What conclusion would you draw? If there was nothing to be gained from suffering, then either there is no God, or God is permitting needless suffering.

Or, rather, our suffering is efficacious, much like the suffering of Jesus on the cross (an appropriate image, especially today on Good Friday), and the suffering of Mary watching her son die on the cross. I'm not aware of any other religion that offers a solution to suffering, that brings good out of it.

I don't seek a good, I seek an understanding that makes sense, no religious teachings have done that for me to this day.

phattonez · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
I don't seek a good, I seek an understanding that makes sense, no religious teachings have done that for me to this day.

Then are you an atheist? You go to receive the Eucharist, so I don't think that's true.

Renae · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
Then are you an atheist? You go to receive the Eucharist, so I don't think that's true.

No, I'm a non-practicing catholic (which means catholicism guides me without controlling me) or more "accurately" you could call me a God Fearing Christian looking for a religion. I don't have the faith it requires to be an atheist.

phattonez · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
No, I'm a non-practicing catholic (which means catholicism guides me without controlling me) or more "accurately" you could call me a God Fearing Christian looking for a religion. I don't have the faith it requires to be an atheist.

So the argument that you presented was one an atheist would argue. It doesn't make you a non-Catholic Christian, as if the many Protestant or other heretical sects have a better answer.

Renae · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
So the argument that you presented was one an atheist would argue. It doesn't make you a non-Catholic Christian, as if the many Protestant or other heretical sects have a better answer.

I'm sorry, but say what?

phattonez · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
I'm sorry, but say what?

Why would your question of suffering make your a non Catholic Christian as opposed to a Catholic?

Renae · Apr 14, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
Why would your question of suffering make your a non Catholic Christian as opposed to a Catholic?

Eh... it's deeper than that.

phattonez · Apr 17, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
Eh... it's deeper than that.

So I'm assuming that you would call yourself a Bible believing Christian. What is it that you find in the Bible that you think Catholicism gets wrong? Be specific.

Renae · Apr 17, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
So I'm assuming that you would call yourself a Bible believing Christian. What is it that you find in the Bible that you think Catholicism gets wrong? Be specific.

Well the Mary worship for starters.

phattonez · Apr 18, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
Well the Mary worship for starters.

Okay. Simple. We don't worship Mary.

Renae · Apr 18, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
Okay. Simple. We don't worship Mary.

Answer: Sadly, our Catholic friends and family members have been indoctrinated to believe that the use of statues, relics, and other articles is acceptable and even necessary for worship. They have been taught by the Roman Catholic Church that the images and icons used in the church are not actually “worshiped” but are simply “visual aids” to worship.

The Catholic Church long ago began making allowances for the idolatrous use of images by the way they reference the Ten Commandments. In the Catholic catechism and in most official Catholic documents, the first and second commandments are combined and then summarized with “I am the Lord your God. You shall not have other gods beside Me.” Suspiciously absent is what comprises the second commandment in the Protestant numbering of the Ten Commandments: “You shall not make any graven images.”

While it is understandable for “you shall not make any graven images” to be considered an aspect of “you shall not have other gods beside me,” based on the history of idolatry involving graven images throughout biblical and extra-biblical history, it seems unwise to not include “you shall not make any graven images” in every listing of the Ten Commandments. The omission seems especially suspicious in light of the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has long been accused of the idolatrous use of graven images.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-idolatry.html

I misspoke, they don't WORSHIP her as a God, but the idol worship is a very real thing, hell "Say 10 hail mary's..." always bugged the hell out of me.

phattonez · Apr 18, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-idolatry.html

I misspoke, they don't WORSHIP her as a God, but the idol worship is a very real thing, hell "Say 10 hail mary's..." always bugged the hell out of me.

Relics have been around since Hebrew times. Remember the serpent on the pole in the desert? Remember it healing people? Look to the Acts of the Apostles. St. Peter's shadow healed (Acts 5) and St. Paul's handkerchiefs healed (Acts 19:12).

So we don't worship "idols". That would be like the Israelites in the desert worshiping the golden calf as a god. Rather, we use the statues as a reminder of our God and of saints. Besides, don't you carry around photos of relatives on your phone? Is looking at them "idol worship"?

nota bene · Apr 18, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
Relics have been around since Hebrew times. Remember the serpent on the pole in the desert? Remember it healing people? Look to the Acts of the Apostles. St. Peter's shadow healed (Acts 5) and St. Paul's handkerchiefs healed (Acts 19:12).

So we don't worship "idols". That would be like the Israelites in the desert worshiping the golden calf as a god. Rather, we use the statues as a reminder of our God and of saints. Besides, don't you carry around photos of relatives on your phone? Is looking at them "idol worship"?

Correct me please if I'm mistaken, but isn't the point to ask, because of the "communion of saints," to ask Mary/other saints to pray with you? I mean, it's not praying to Mary but, rather, asking her to pray with you?

Renae · Apr 18, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
Relics have been around since Hebrew times. Remember the serpent on the pole in the desert? Remember it healing people? Look to the Acts of the Apostles. St. Peter's shadow healed (Acts 5) and St. Paul's handkerchiefs healed (Acts 19:12).

So we don't worship "idols". That would be like the Israelites in the desert worshiping the golden calf as a god. Rather, we use the statues as a reminder of our God and of saints. Besides, don't you carry around photos of relatives on your phone? Is looking at them "idol worship"?

Yet we're commanded to pray Mary, as penance... nto making a lot of sense.

phattonez · Apr 18, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

nota bene said:
Correct me please if I'm mistaken, but isn't the point to ask, because of the "communion of saints," to ask Mary/other saints to pray with you? I mean, it's not praying to Mary but, rather, asking her to pray with you?

It's basically the same thing as asking a friend to pray for you, though with saints there's more respect involved because they're in Heaven, so you speak to them with the respect that you would have for an older sibling.

phattonez · Apr 18, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
Yet we're commanded to pray Mary, as penance... nto making a lot of sense.

Praying to Mary means that we pray for her to intercede on our behalf. Any authority given to Mary is ultimately from God. She is not God.

Renae · Apr 18, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

phattonez said:
Praying to Mary means that we pray for her to intercede on our behalf. Any authority given to Mary is ultimately from God. She is not God.

You asked for a specific, that's one area, the other is divorce. Another would be priests not being allowed to marry, I've always thought that was a misguided rule. Oh, and when people say "Peace be unto you" and you respond "Also unto you"... That little get to know your pew mates? Look, it ruined Star Wars for me, every time someone say "May the force be with you" I want to other person to say "And also unto you".

phattonez · Apr 18, 2017

Re: My Born Again Aunt thinks NDE's are really Satanic Angles tricking people into he

Renae said:
You asked for a specific, that's one area, the other is divorce.

What that the Catholic Church does do you think goes against what Jesus taught?

Another would be priests not being allowed to marry, I've always thought that was a misguided rule.

Actually that's a discipline. Eastern Churches in full communion with Rome actually do allow married priests.

Oh, and when people say "Peace be unto you" and you respond "Also unto you"... That little get to know your pew mates? Look, it ruined Star Wars for me, every time someone say "May the force be with you" I want to other person to say "And also unto you".

I personally don't like the "kiss of peace" rite either. I usually just kiss my wife and I'm done with it. In the traditional Latin Mass, that only happens at the altar. Yes, it's dumb, but it's no reason to leave the faith.