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Original Sin

JANFU

JANFU

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Original Sin
Are we born with this? If so why?
If yes, what did Jesus die for? Did his sacrifice not address this Sin?
If a baby is not baptized and dies prior to, do they die with Original Sin?
This is not a troll thread. I am just very, very curious as to what others believe.
My belief is we are not born with Original Sin, as Jesus died on the cross for all humanities sins.

I am far from a biblical scholar, nor am I well read in the bible, though I am Christian and believe Jesus was the Son of God.
I am sure these questions have been posed before. But if you wish to reply, that would be fine.
Thank you
 
JANFU said:
Original Sin
Are we born with this? If so why?
If yes, what did Jesus die for? Did his sacrifice not address this Sin?
If a baby is not baptized and dies prior to, do they die with Original Sin?
This is not a troll thread. I am just very, very curious as to what others believe.
My belief is we are not born with Original Sin, as Jesus died on the cross for
all humanities sins.

I am far from a biblical scholar, nor am I well read in the bible, though I am
Christian and believe Jesus was the Son of God.
I am sure these questions have been posed before. But if you wish to reply,
that would be fine.
Thank you
Click to expand...



The following verses from the book of Romans seem clear enough.

(Does the man-made theological construct of "Original Sin" have to mean more
than what Paul explained below in Romans chapter 5? I don't think it does.)

_________________

SIN AND DEATH CAME THROUGH ADAM, FORGIVENESS AND ETERNAL LIFE CAME
THROUGH THE LORD JESUS:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man [Adam],and death through
sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned . . .

. . . For just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] the many were
made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man [The Lord Christ] the
many will be made righteous."
Romans 5:12,19

__________________
 
JAG said:
The following verses from the book of Romans seem clear enough.

(Does the man-made theological construct of "Original Sin" have to mean more
than what Paul explained below in Romans chapter 5? I don't think it does.)

_________________

SIN AND DEATH CAME THROUGH ADAM, FORGIVENESS AND ETERNAL LIFE CAME
THROUGH THE LORD JESUS:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man [Adam],and death through
sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned . . .

. . . For just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] the many were
made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man [The Lord Christ] the
many will be made righteous."
Romans 5:12,19

__________________
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
Add this one:

"For since death came through a man [Adam], the resurrection of the dead
comes also through a man [The Lord Christ]. For as in Adam all die, so in
Christ all will be made alive."
I Cor. 15:21-22
 
JANFU said:
Thank you.
Click to expand...

You're welcome.

"If a baby is not baptized and dies prior to, do they die with Original Sin?"__JANFU
Click to expand...

I don't think its in the Bible, but theologians have speculated about what they
call the "age of accountability" and speculate that all babies and children who
die before the "age of accountability" are forgiven for any "sins" committed.

The evidence for this is scant indeed, but it does harmonize with the character
of God who correctly describes Himself as a God of Love, Mercy, and Grace.

Some have quoted 2 Samuel 12:23 where David said of the new born baby who
had died, "I will go to him, but he will not return to me" --- as a proof text to
support the idea that humans having not reached the "age of accountability",
are not held responsible for any inherited sin or "sins" committed.
 
JAG said:
You're welcome.



I don't think its in the Bible, but theologians have speculated about what they
call the "age of accountability" and speculate that all babies and children who
die before the "age of accountability" are forgiven for any "sins" committed.

The evidence for this is scant indeed, but it does harmonize with the character
of God who correctly describes Himself as a God of Love, Mercy, and Grace.

Some have quoted 2 Samuel 12:23 where David said of the new born baby who
had died, "I will go to him, but he will not return to me" --- as a proof text to
support the idea that humans having not reached the "age of accountability",
are not held responsible for any inherited sin or "sins" committed.
Click to expand...

That is what I believe. A child cannot be born with Sin
 
We're all born human, and that's not intrinsically evil. None of us chose to be born and we bear no responsibility for the world prior to coming into it. I'd be highly skeptical of anyone claiming to speak for god that says something as vile as this.
 
JANFU said:
That is what I believe. A child cannot be born with Sin
Click to expand...

Agreed.

The Greek word translated "sin" is "hamartia" and means to
"miss the mark", that is, to fail to keep the moral standard.

Of course, babies and older toddlers don't even know what
the moral standard is, so they can't fail to keep a moral
standard that is not known to them.

However all humans are indeed born with a "sin nature."
This means that humans have to be taught to choose the
good, but do NOT have to be taught to choose to do evil
because humans choose to do evil naturally due to our
human sinful nature.

The reality of this is seen as early as kindergarten and
it can be observed all through the elementary grades
as children have to be constantly taught to choose to
stop doing wrong and start choosing to do what is right
(many never learn and end up in juvenile prisons and
later in federal prisons.)

Nobody ever has to worry about human children choosing
to be very very good, its always them choosing to be
very very bad --- that causes all the societal problems.
 
JAG said:
Agreed.

The Greek word translated "sin" is "hamartia" and means to
"miss the mark", that is, to fail to keep the moral standard.

Of course, babies and older toddlers don't even know what
the moral standard is, so they can't fail to keep a moral
standard that is not known to them.

However all humans are indeed born with a "sin nature."
This means that humans have to be taught to choose the
good, but do NOT have to be taught to choose to do evil
because humans choose to do evil naturally due to our
human sinful nature.

The reality of this is seen as early as kindergarten and
it can be observed all through the elementary grades
as children have to be constantly taught to choose to
stop doing wrong and start choosing to do what is right
(many never learn and end up in juvenile prisons and
later in federal prisons.)

Nobody ever has to worry about human children choosing
to be very very good, its always them choosing to be
very very bad --- that causes all the societal problems.
Click to expand...

Minor sins such as lying and such. As children they need guidance on what is right and wrong.
 
JANFU said:
Minor sins such as lying and such.
Click to expand...

Worldwide tens of millions of children end
up, as adults, convicted of serious major
felonies including murder, rape, and armed
robbery.

There is no school in the world that seeks
to teach children that they ought to commit
major felonies --- rather its clearly understood
that schools need to teach humans NOT to
commit murder, rape, armed robbery, and
other such evils.

I seek to emphasize that humans, from an
early age, already have a natural [human
nature] strong inclination to do evil:

Take away his toy, and a 5 year old will
hit a fellow classmate as hard as he can
in the face with what ever he can find.

He does not have to be taught to do
that . . . . rather he has to be taught
not to do that.

Agree?
 
A lot of people just don't know that the concept of "Original Sin" only means sinning in a NEW way that is original--some perversion of God's ways that is brand new--a foul and sinful act that has never been done before.

Considering the talent and ingenuity of mankind........this indeed requires some creativity.

But things get more complicated.

Since the Bible also tells us that "There is nothing new under the sun," this brings us into an area where the Bible is being contradictory--it speaks of a new kind of sin while simultaneously telling us that such a thing is impossible.

The Bible, as they say, does indeed speak in mysterious ways.

However, we must do our best.
 
JAG said:
Worldwide tens of millions of children end
up, as adults, convicted of serious major
felonies including murder, rape, and armed
robbery.

There is no school in the world that seeks
to teach children that they ought to commit
major felonies --- rather its clearly understood
that schools need to teach humans NOT to
commit murder, rape, armed robbery, and
other such evils.

I seek to emphasize that humans, from an
early age, already have a natural [human
nature] strong inclination to do evil:

Take away his toy, and a 5 year old will
hit a fellow classmate as hard as he can
in the face with what ever he can find.

He does not have to be taught to do
that . . . . rather he has to be taught
not to do that.

Agree?
Click to expand...

Evil is such a strong word to use.
 
JANFU said:
Original Sin
Are we born with this? If so why?
If yes, what did Jesus die for? Did his sacrifice not address this Sin?
If a baby is not baptized and dies prior to, do they die with Original Sin?
This is not a troll thread. I am just very, very curious as to what others believe.
My belief is we are not born with Original Sin, as Jesus died on the cross for all humanities sins.

I am far from a biblical scholar, nor am I well read in the bible, though I am Christian and believe Jesus was the Son of God.
I am sure these questions have been posed before. But if you wish to reply, that would be fine.
Thank you
Click to expand...

Yes. But if you really read it, "original sin" is really justfree will. Basically it's the story of the human condition. We want to be good, but free will gets you in trouble sometimes.
 
JANFU said:
That is what I believe. A child cannot be born with Sin
Click to expand...

But Mary, the mother of Jesus, needed to be specially and individually exempted from Original Sin by the "Immaculate Conception" edict of the church centuries later.
 
Vox said:
A lot of people just don't know that the concept of "Original Sin" only means sinning in a NEW way that is original--some perversion of God's ways that is brand new--a foul and sinful act that has never been done before.

Considering the talent and ingenuity of mankind........this indeed requires some creativity.

But things get more complicated.

Since the Bible also tells us that "There is nothing new under the sun," this brings us into an area where the Bible is being contradictory--it speaks of a new kind of sin while simultaneously telling us that such a thing is impossible.

The Bible, as they say, does indeed speak in mysterious ways.

However, we must do our best.
Click to expand...

Original Sin is traditionally the disobedience of Adam and Eve. I have never heard your definition before. Where did you get it? Do you know any denominations which accept it?
 
JohnPaul said:
Original Sin is traditionally the disobedience of Adam and Eve. I have never heard your definition before. Where did you get it? Do you know any denominations which accept it?
Click to expand...

It's a non-denominational belief. All denominations are structured and held to rigid traditionally established dogma.

I have heard it from many cherished and highly respected Christian scholars.

My source is Bishop Avery Phillips Basic Bible KJV Commentary 1948 Edition.
 
JANFU said:
Evil is such a strong word to use.
Click to expand...

And the omniscient God knew they would do it when he created them. The whole Garden of Eden story is deliberate entrapment of an innocent young couple by a malicious God with perfect foreknowledge of what they would do when he placed the tree in the Garden with them and then forbade them to eat the fruit. Why put the tree there?
 
JohnPaul said:
And the omniscient God knew they would do it when he created them. The whole Garden of Eden story is deliberate entrapment of an innocent young couple by a malicious God with perfect foreknowledge of what they would do when he placed the tree in the Garden with them and then forbade them to eat the fruit.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Which is why Bishop Phillips realized that the "Original Sin" doctrine from the Roman Church was wrong.
 
Vox said:
Exactly.

Which is why Bishop Phillips realized that the "Original Sin" doctrine from the Roman Church was wrong.
Click to expand...

OK, I agree it is wrong, but interpreting the word "original" to mean a new sin is silly.
 
JANFU said:
Original Sin
Are we born with this? If so why?
If yes, what did Jesus die for? Did his sacrifice not address this Sin?
If a baby is not baptized and dies prior to, do they die with Original Sin?
This is not a troll thread. I am just very, very curious as to what others believe.
My belief is we are not born with Original Sin, as Jesus died on the cross for all humanities sins.

I am far from a biblical scholar, nor am I well read in the bible, though I am Christian and believe Jesus was the Son of God.
I am sure these questions have been posed before. But if you wish to reply, that would be fine.
Thank you
Click to expand...

My understanding is that original sin entered the world through Adam's willful actions which resulted in what we call the fall of man. Prior to that, it's believe that humans were perfect in all ways and did not know the concept of sin and did no such thing. Additionally, Adam and Eve represented all humans and the result would have been the same if any other was in their place.

So their decisions represent all our decisions and we all exist in an imperfect state/state of corruption.
 
Fishking said:
My understanding is that original sin entered the world through Adam's willful actions which resulted in what we call the fall of man. Prior to that, it's believe that humans were perfect in all ways and did not know the concept of sin and did no such thing. Additionally, Adam and Eve represented all humans and the result would have been the same if any other was in their place.

So their decisions represent all our decisions and we all exist in an imperfect state/state of corruption.
Click to expand...

But Jesus' death was said to atone for all our sins, at least those sins before his death. If we are still guilty of original sin, what did Jesus die for?
 
JohnPaul said:
But Jesus' death was said to atone for all our sins, at least those sins before his death. If we are still guilty of original sin, what did Jesus die for?
Click to expand...

He atoned for all of that and future sins. That means that Jesus basically paid our entrance fee into Heaven, which requires perfection to enter.
 
Fishking said:
He atoned for all of that and future sins. That means that Jesus basically paid our entrance fee into Heaven, which requires perfection to enter.
Click to expand...

But many Christians say Jesus' death is not enough. We must be "saved" by their church ritual.
 
JohnPaul said:
But many Christians say Jesus' death is not enough. We must be "saved" by their church ritual.
Click to expand...

There is no ritual. You have to believe and then accept the payment. I could buy a car for you and be standing there with the key and you still have to believe I'm not messing with you and take it.
 
JohnPaul said:
OK, I agree it is wrong, but interpreting the word "original" to mean a new sin is silly.
Click to expand...

Sure. Bishop Phillips is silly and you're a sage.

Right.
 
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