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How Is Prayer Supposed to work?

jimithyashford said:
Now I know I can't really get a strait answer to this question, cause there are 30k some off denominations of Christianity and probably at least a dozen major theological schools of thought on this question, but let me as you....who the heck is prayer supposed to work?

Almost every church service in every denomination I have ever attended has, at some point in there service, a prayers, dedications, and remembrances portion of the proceedings. Likewise religious people frequently post on Facebook asking for prayers for this or that cause or person or event. Sports teams pray for victory, politicians pray for our nation, soldiers pray for safety in battle, so on so forth. Our culture is absolutely inundated with this idea of petitioning God for some desired result.

But is that actually supposed to work? Doesn't God already have a plan? When you pray for him to do something, does your prayer have any effect at all on what will come to pass? Can praying actually change or modify the outcome of anything in any way? If it can, then did you convince God, through your prayers, to do what he otherwise was not going to? If not, if God was going to do it all along anyway, then your prayers didn't do anything, right?


So can someone explain this to me? Can prayer actually alter the course of what otherwise would have happened without your prayer? If it can, then did your prayer alter God's plan? Or was God's plan that you would pray all along, therefore your pray wasn't really free will?

Makes no sense...
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Are you a parent?


If so, I'd assume you do things like feed your kids, buy them things they need.

You'd do that whether they asked or not, I expect.


Still, it's nice when they notice and say "thanks" and express appreciation, isn't it?


James 5:16 "The fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much..."
 
jimithyashford said:
Now I know I can't really get a strait answer to this question, cause there are 30k some off denominations of Christianity and probably at least a dozen major theological schools of thought on this question, but let me as you....who the heck is prayer supposed to work?

Almost every church service in every denomination I have ever attended has, at some point in there service, a prayers, dedications, and remembrances portion of the proceedings. Likewise religious people frequently post on Facebook asking for prayers for this or that cause or person or event. Sports teams pray for victory, politicians pray for our nation, soldiers pray for safety in battle, so on so forth. Our culture is absolutely inundated with this idea of petitioning God for some desired result.

But is that actually supposed to work? Doesn't God already have a plan? When you pray for him to do something, does your prayer have any effect at all on what will come to pass? Can praying actually change or modify the outcome of anything in any way? If it can, then did you convince God, through your prayers, to do what he otherwise was not going to? If not, if God was going to do it all along anyway, then your prayers didn't do anything, right?


So can someone explain this to me? Can prayer actually alter the course of what otherwise would have happened without your prayer? If it can, then did your prayer alter God's plan? Or was God's plan that you would pray all along, therefore your pray wasn't really free will?

Makes no sense...
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I can't answer your question, but I do have an anecdote. It is said there are no atheists in foxholes. I was never in combat, but I did serve on an Air Force aircrew statione near Tripoli in Libya in 1953. I and my crew once made an emergency parachute jump at night over the North African desert. No one was injured. I don't know what gods saved us, but I thank the two Muslims and their camel who found us in the desert, gave us food and water and led us on a three day walk to a remote Libyan police post like a small fort in the desert, where we were oicked up by a British army truck and returned to our base on the coast 70 miles away. It would have been a long walk without food and water. I said a little orayer, but God sent the Muslims to save us.
 
jimithyashford said:
What the hell man? In my previous reply to you I said I am already familiar with that material and I agree that it is interesting but that it is not what I am asking about on this thread.I didn't dismiss your link at all. I lauded it, I agreed that it is fascinating material, I am familiar with those studies. But that is not the question I am here asking. I am not seeking a psychological discussion. I am seeking a theological one. And you telling me that no such information or material exists, when it quite clearly does, is not helpful or insightful.

If you are willing to discuss the theological mechanics behind intercessory prayer, then please stay around, if you want to discuss the mental and emotional impact of prayer and prayer-like activity upon the participant, that is a fascinating topic, but not the topic I am discussing here.

Jeeze, why is that so hard to grasp? They are two different topics, both fine and interesting, but I have one particular one in mind here today.
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The attitude isn't neccery.

A dozen times now posters have offered you the best answer they can and you dismiss them out of hand saying "that doesn't answer the main thrust of my question".

THERE IS NO ANSWER to the main thrust of your question. The information you're looking for does not exist. More reserch is needed.
 
BlackBook said:
The attitude isn't neccery.

A dozen times now posters have offered you the best answer they can and you dismiss them out of hand saying "that doesn't answer the main thrust of my question".

THERE IS NO ANSWER to the main thrust of your question. The information you're looking for does not exist. More reserch is needed.
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Ok man, well whatever you say. Your input has been noted. I assure you that I have logged away and digested your views on the matter. Thank you for your participation.
 
JohnPaul said:
I can't answer your question, but I do have an anecdote. It is said there are no atheists in foxholes. I was never in combat, but I did serve on an Air Force aircrew statione near Tripoli in Libya in 1953. I and my crew once made an emergency parachute jump at night over the North African desert. No one was injured. I don't know what gods saved us, but I thank the two Muslims and their camel who found us in the desert, gave us food and water and led us on a three day walk to a remote Libyan police post like a small fort in the desert, where we were oicked up by a British army truck and returned to our base on the coast 70 miles away. It would have been a long walk without food and water. I said a little orayer, but God sent the Muslims to save us.
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That is a very interesting anecdote. Not sure what to make of it, but thanks for sharing. that is very interesting (not sarcastic).
 
Goshin said:
Are you a parent?


If so, I'd assume you do things like feed your kids, buy them things they need.

You'd do that whether they asked or not, I expect.


Still, it's nice when they notice and say "thanks" and express appreciation, isn't it?


James 5:16 "The fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much..."
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Are you saying that prayer does not actually petition the Lord to change anything but is merely an expression of thanks?

If you believe that, that is fine, you're welcome to believe that and I have known many Christians that do. But many other christians believe in intercessory prayer and that diligent prayer can result in blessings, boons, healing, wealth, good fortune, etc. That prayer isn't merely thanking God, but asking something of him, and that as long as your faith is earnest, that there is a decent chance that what you ask for will be granted.

Again, it's fine if you don't believe that, but this question is more directed at the kind of people who do believe that.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I honestly don't know. God is God and if we mortals could fully understand his ways or His plan or His intent, he wouldn't be much of a God would He. But in my heart do I believe prayer can and does change the course of things? Yes I do. I have witnessed in my life things that would stretch coincidence far past reasonable possibility and usually this happens when God gives us what we need instead of what we think we need; when we get what would answer the prayer instead of what we thought would have answered the prayer. And sometimes God says no. And sometimes it seems as if He isn't there or hearing me at all which sometimes tests the depths of our faith.

But ultimately, when I pray, things just go better than when I don't so I have to believe there is a power God gives us in prayer to change things.
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Ok, sure, but that still doesn't seem to be answering the question. I know that you don't KNOW, like as a fact what happens when you pray, I am merely asking you what you think happens, what your opinion as a believer is. Does prayer cause God to do things he would not otherwise have done? Does it cause God to change course? Does it happen that God's plan was one thing (for Person A to die of cancer or person B to live in poverty) but due to prayer he alters his plan (Person A makes an amazing recovery, Person B comes into financial blessings). Agian, I know you don't know for sure what happens, I am asking for your opinion.
 
jimithyashford said:
Are you saying that prayer does not actually petition the Lord to change anything but is merely an expression of thanks?

If you believe that, that is fine, you're welcome to believe that and I have known many Christians that do. But many other christians believe in intercessory prayer and that diligent prayer can result in blessings, boons, healing, wealth, good fortune, etc. That prayer isn't merely thanking God, but asking something of him, and that as long as your faith is earnest, that there is a decent chance that what you ask for will be granted.

Again, it's fine if you don't believe that, but this question is more directed at the kind of people who do believe that.
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Ye have not because ye ask not, and ye ask not because ye believe not.


Yes, I believe in asking. Done right, it is an expression of faith.
 
jimithyashford said:
That is a very interesting anecdote. Not sure what to make of it, but thanks for sharing. that is very interesting (not sarcastic).
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It was a very scary experience. Only one of the crew had ever jumped before. MY prayer was brief, but very sincere. I don't know if the two Muslims who found us were an answer to it, but it was good enough for me. I am still an agnostic, but I don't dismiss the value of prayer.
 
jimithyashford said:
Ok man, well whatever you say. Your input has been noted. I assure you that I have logged away and digested your views on the matter. Thank you for your participation.
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The attitude isn't necessary.
 
jimithyashford said:
Ok, sure, but that still doesn't seem to be answering the question. I know that you don't KNOW, like as a fact what happens when you pray, I am merely asking you what you think happens, what your opinion as a believer is. Does prayer cause God to do things he would not otherwise have done? Does it cause God to change course? Does it happen that God's plan was one thing (for Person A to die of cancer or person B to live in poverty) but due to prayer he alters his plan (Person A makes an amazing recovery, Person B comes into financial blessings). Agian, I know you don't know for sure what happens, I am asking for your opinion.
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I wish I could answer your questions, but I don't know. I don't believe God wills any pain or sorrow on any of us but all bad things are a consequence of our or somebody else's sin--intended or unintended. (I define 'sin' as that which causes harm to ourselves and/or others.) Does God come to our rescue? I know that sometimes He does. I don't know that prayer results in a change of God's plan which I see as always best for us, but I believe it can help to put us in sync with God's plan for us.

I wish I could be more specific but if I was I would be claiming knowledge I don't have.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I wish I could answer your questions, but I don't know. I don't believe God wills any pain or sorrow on any of us but all bad things are a consequence of our or somebody else's sin--intended or unintended. (I define 'sin' as that which causes harm to ourselves and/or others.) Does God come to our rescue? I know that sometimes He does. I don't know that prayer results in a change of God's plan which I see as always best for us, but I believe it can help to put us in sync with God's plan for us.

I wish I could be more specific but if I was I would be claiming knowledge I don't have.
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His questions, as posed, are unanswerable. At least from the Christian point of view. Ludin gave him an apt description of what prayer is, and how it works, early on in the thread, and he dismissed it. I am not convinced the OP is actually looking for answers. ;)
 
countryboy said:
His questions, as posed, are unanswerable. At least from the Christian point of view. Ludin gave him an apt description of what prayer is, and how it works, early on in the thread, and he dismissed it. I am not convinced the OP is actually looking for answers. ;)
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I think those asking honest questions deserve honest answers. The ways of God are incomprehensible to those of us who have a personal relationship with God, so imagine how much more mystifying and difficult to believe for those who do not yet have that blessing. You or I or somebody else may never know when we are the one chosen to teach or plant that small seed of hope that grows in faith.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I think those asking honest questions deserve honest answers. The ways of God are incomprehensible to those of us who have a personal relationship with God, so imagine how much more mystifying and difficult to believe for those who do not yet have that blessing. You or I or somebody else may never know when we are the one chosen to teach or plant that small seed of hope that grows in faith.
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You are good peeps owl lady. By the by, what is it with the owl theme? Are you a fan? My wife loves owls, and I am a fan too. We get a lot of owl sounds from our woods and I just love it.
 
countryboy said:
You are good peeps owl lady. By the by, what is it with the owl theme? Are you a fan? My wife loves owls, and I am a fan too. We get a lot of owl sounds from our woods and I just love it.
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:) I have been known as the Owl person or Owl lady most of my adult life. When my husband and I married many decades ago somebody gave us a little ceramic 'piggy' bank that was two owls cuddled together. Sometime later that same year I acquired a second owl figurine. Okay two makes a collection right? And over the years people have been giving us owl stuff so that now it numbers into the hundreds. So I did study up on owls but I am still pretty much more of a dog, cat, horse person more than a birder but I love the birds too. And for years now my fantasy sports teams have been the Albq Owls so hence my screen name here. :)
 
jimithyashford said:
Now I know I can't really get a strait answer to this question, cause there are 30k some off denominations of Christianity and probably at least a dozen major theological schools of thought on this question, but let me as you....who the heck is prayer supposed to work?

Almost every church service in every denomination I have ever attended has, at some point in there service, a prayers, dedications, and remembrances portion of the proceedings. Likewise religious people frequently post on Facebook asking for prayers for this or that cause or person or event. Sports teams pray for victory, politicians pray for our nation, soldiers pray for safety in battle, so on so forth. Our culture is absolutely inundated with this idea of petitioning God for some desired result.

But is that actually supposed to work? Doesn't God already have a plan? When you pray for him to do something, does your prayer have any effect at all on what will come to pass? Can praying actually change or modify the outcome of anything in any way? If it can, then did you convince God, through your prayers, to do what he otherwise was not going to? If not, if God was going to do it all along anyway, then your prayers didn't do anything, right?


So can someone explain this to me? Can prayer actually alter the course of what otherwise would have happened without your prayer? If it can, then did your prayer alter God's plan? Or was God's plan that you would pray all along, therefore your pray wasn't really free will?

Makes no sense...
Click to expand...

There are numerous examples within the Christian (and Jewish) scriptures of God changing his mind due to the petitioning of his people. Moses convinced him not to kill the people of Israel and start over. The city of Nineveh convinced him not to destroy them. Mary convinced Jesus to perform miracles he had no intention of performing at the wedding feast (because his time had not yet come). Jesus himself gives this illustration about how prayer works:
Luke 11:5-10 (THE VOICE) Imagine that one of your friends comes over at midnight. He bangs on the door and shouts, “Friend, will you lend me three loaves of bread? A friend of mine just showed up unexpectedly from a journey, and I don’t have anything to feed him.” Would you shout out from your bed, “I’m already in bed, and so are the kids. I already locked the door. I can’t be bothered”? You know this as well as I do: even if you didn’t care that this fellow was your friend, if he keeps knocking long enough, you’ll get up and give him whatever he needs simply because of his brash persistence! So listen: Keep on asking, and you will receive. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened for you. All who keep asking will receive, all who keep seeking will find, and doors will open to those who keep knocking.

This, of course, brings up questions of God's immutability and sovereignty. Some would argue that the immutability of God is a product of Platonic philosophy that should be excised from Christianity to begin with. Such people propose an open and relational God who experiences the world with us. Such a God does not have the future of the universe pre-written, although he knows the destination and is aware of every possible path to get there. For such a God, it's clear how prayer could shape him.

Putting aside open theism and other options, let's look at a similar question. If God has written everything ahead of time, why don't I just stay home and sleep all day instead of going to work? The fact it is pre-ordained from God's perspective doesn't change the fact that we experience our lives through our decisions. It doesn't matter whether God wrote it aeons ago, the fact remains that if I stay home I will lose my job and go hungry. It's the same with prayer; the fact remains that we get different results depending on our actions, be they preordained or not.
 
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Goshin said:
Ye have not because ye ask not, and ye ask not because ye believe not.


Yes, I believe in asking. Done right, it is an expression of faith.
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I was not asking is prayer was an expression of faith. I was asking if prayer could actually alter the course of God's plan. If God was going to allow x thing to happen (Person A dies of cancer) but due to prayer he changes course and does what he otherwise would not have done (blesses person A with healing).

Basically what I am getting at is when a good or a bad thing happens, did Prayer have any effect on that? Or would that good thing have still happened even if nobody prayer, or would that bad thing still happen even if everyone prays? Does the prayer actually convince God to alter his actions? Presumably he would only alter his action for prayer that he thought were a good idea, but if he thinks its a good idea isn't that what he would have done anyway?
 
CrabCake said:
There are numerous examples within the Christian (and Jewish) scriptures of God changing his mind due to the petitioning of his people. Moses convinced him not to kill the people of Israel and start over. The city of Nineveh convinced him not to destroy them. Mary convinced Jesus to perform miracles he had no intention of performing at the wedding feast (because his time had not yet come). Jesus himself gives this illustration about how prayer works:
Luke 11:5-10 (THE VOICE) Imagine that one of your friends comes over at midnight. He bangs on the door and shouts, “Friend, will you lend me three loaves of bread? A friend of mine just showed up unexpectedly from a journey, and I don’t have anything to feed him.” Would you shout out from your bed, “I’m already in bed, and so are the kids. I already locked the door. I can’t be bothered”? You know this as well as I do: even if you didn’t care that this fellow was your friend, if he keeps knocking long enough, you’ll get up and give him whatever he needs simply because of his brash persistence! So listen: Keep on asking, and you will receive. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened for you. All who keep asking will receive, all who keep seeking will find, and doors will open to those who keep knocking.

This, of course, brings up questions of God's immutability and sovereignty. Some would argue that the immutability of God is a product of Platonic philosophy that should be excised from Christianity to begin with. Such people propose an open and relational God who experiences the world with us. Such a God does not have the future of the universe pre-written, although he knows the destination and is aware of every possible path to get there. For such a God, it's clear how prayer could shape him.

Putting aside open theism and other options, let's look at a similar question. If God has written everything ahead of time, why don't I just stay home and sleep all day instead of going to work? The fact it is pre-ordained from God's perspective doesn't change the fact that we experience our lives through our decisions. It doesn't matter whether God wrote it aeons ago, the fact remains that if I stay home I will lose my job and go hungry. It's the same with prayer; the fact remains that we get different results depending on our actions, be they preordained or not.
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Right, but I am asking if prayer has influence on that preordination? When we pray are we simply playing into what was going to happen all along anyway regardless? Or do prayer actually convince god to interceded on our behalf in the preordained causal chain, jumping events off track so to speak and changing what otherwise would have been in our favor. Unless the very act of praying for the thing was preordained, but then it would hardly be said that god was responding to the prayers of his faithful as much as he was sticking to his own script that he wrote.
 
jimithyashford said:
So did your prayer change God's mind or God's plan? Did your prayer convince him to alter course and do what he otherwise would not have done?
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There was a time in my very lengthy marriage that the marriage was in trouble. We had been transferred to a place that we both hated, we were having financial difficulties, and that all magnified working through some marital issues that many, if not most, married people have to work through from time to time. And we terribly missed our friends in the small town we had lived for a good while and desperately wanted to go back there.

And I prayed so very very hard for that to happen.

So when my husband was offered a branch manager position in that town, we were overjoyed. At least that part of our troubles was finally over. Answered prayer.

Until the regional manager would not release my husband to go. And that job went to somebody else. Why would God play such a cruel trick on us? Why were we being required to suffer so? (At least it felt like suffering to us at the time.) But I continued to pray. My husband was offered a job with another company that would keep us in the same place for the time being, and he at least liked his new job and I was happy with my job. And we were working on our finances and that was improving.

And not too long after that we were transferred to another place, a town we had never heard of, and we couldn't think of a thing that was going to be good about that. Further there were no rental properties and there was only one house available to buy in our price range. But off we went with heavy hearts unsure of what the future held. Yes, I was still praying.

Well, it turned out that the run down house we bought and fixed up we were able to sell for a very nice profit that allowed us to buy our dream home of that time. And all this was near a very good little church that provided us with the very best friends we had ever had and a support system that helped us work out all our marital problems and put us on the path to prosperity and happiness.

We have been back to visit in that other small town that has declined, the office offered us closed long before, and there is no chance we could have done as well there if we had even been able to stay.

Answered prayer--an altering of a bad situation? I believe that with all my heart. God answered our prayer and made what we needed happen, not what we thought we needed.
 
jimithyashford said:
Right, but I am asking if prayer has influence on that preordination? When we pray are we simply playing into what was going to happen all along anyway regardless? Or do prayer actually convince god to interceded on our behalf in the preordained causal chain, jumping events off track so to speak and changing what otherwise would have been in our favor. Unless the very act of praying for the thing was preordained, but then it would hardly be said that god was responding to the prayers of his faithful as much as he was sticking to his own script that he wrote.
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Well, if some version of open theism is correct, then prayer probably does have a direct influence on God.

If it isn't, then perhaps the better way to think of it is like this. Did Romeo commit suicide because of his overwhelming grief at the loss of his beloved? or did Romeo commit suicide because Shakespeare decided that he would? Depending on the level from which you are analyzing the story, either explanation is correct. We aren't even done at that level. Did Shakespeare write that because he freely chose to, or was he driven by the biochemical makeup of his brain which left him with no choice but to write that? Is the biochemical makeup of Shakespeare's brain the real reason Romeo killed himself then? What caused him to have that biochemical makeup? We can keep going back to higher and higher level causes either infinitely, or until we reach what Aristotle called "the prime mover" and Christians call God. Is the real reason Romeo killed himself "because God said so"? Maybe so...

Did your prayers move God? Maybe. Did you pray because God moved you? maybe...

There aren't satisfying answers to most metaphysical questions. That's just the way it is. But there are good answers when we bring it back down to a practical level. From a practical perspective, the bible tells us that our prayers affect God. Whether that is in some direct sense and through our own agency or indirectly and through the preordainment of God is no real relevance from a practical perspective.
 
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AlbqOwl said:
There was a time in my very lengthy marriage that the marriage was in trouble. We had been transferred to a place that we both hated, we were having financial difficulties, and that all magnified working through some marital issues that many, if not most, married people have to work through from time to time. And we terribly missed our friends in the small town we had lived for a good while and desperately wanted to go back there.

And I prayed so very very hard for that to happen.

So when my husband was offered a branch manager position in that town, we were overjoyed. At least that part of our troubles was finally over. Answered prayer.

Until the regional manager would not release my husband to go. And that job went to somebody else. Why would God play such a cruel trick on us? Why were we being required to suffer so? (At least it felt like suffering to us at the time.) But I continued to pray. My husband was offered a job with another company that would keep us in the same place for the time being, and he at least liked his new job and I was happy with my job. And we were working on our finances and that was improving.

And not too long after that we were transferred to another place, a town we had never heard of, and we couldn't think of a thing that was going to be good about that. Further there were no rental properties and there was only one house available to buy in our price range. But off we went with heavy hearts unsure of what the future held. Yes, I was still praying.

Well, it turned out that the run down house we bought and fixed up we were able to sell for a very nice profit that allowed us to buy our dream home of that time. And all this was near a very good little church that provided us with the very best friends we had ever had and a support system that helped us work out all our marital problems and put us on the path to prosperity and happiness.

We have been back to visit in that other small town that has declined, the office offered us closed long before, and there is no chance we could have done as well there if we had even been able to stay.

Answered prayer--an altering of a bad situation? I believe that with all my heart. God answered our prayer and made what we needed happen, not what we thought we needed.
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Ok, but wouldn't all of that have happened even if you hadn't prayed? I mean stuff like that happens to non-believers too. And if you do think that happened because you prayed, then you would be believing that god reached into the heart of the manager and made him refuse to let your husband go. How much anger or frusteration did you have towards a man who God made act that way in response to your prayer? Did God whisper in the ear of the hiring manager at that other job and get him to hire your husband? What about the guy who would have gotten that job instead if it hadn't gone to your husband? What about all of these implications?
 
jimithyashford said:
Ok, but wouldn't all of that have happened even if you hadn't prayed? I mean stuff like that happens to non-believers too. And if you do think that happened because you prayed, then you would be believing that god reached into the heart of the manager and made him refuse to let your husband go. How much anger or frusteration did you have towards a man who God made act that way in response to your prayer? Did God whisper in the ear of the hiring manager at that other job and get him to hire your husband? What about the guy who would have gotten that job instead if it hadn't gone to your husband? What about all of these implications?
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Again I don't know. In my heart I believe my prayers were answered in the best possible way I could have asked for.

God is so much God that we cannot know his ways, see his plan, or comprehend why things are the way they are. But in my heart, my soul, however you want to put it, I felt God working in all that. And I think had that not been the case, and given how things were, we never would have accepted that last transfer that so positively changed our lives.
 
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