• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

How Is Prayer Supposed to work?

jimithyashford said:
Yes, I know that it doesn't actually happen and that there is no god who actually intervenes in affairs. But there are plenty of people who very strongly believe that it does happen, and I am asking them to elaborate on how they believe that to work. If you do not have such a belief then this question is not directed at you.
Click to expand...
Since it's all false you can just imagin whatever makes sense to you and it will be every bit as valid as anything else.
 
Praying to a God or divine spirit is the same as praying to a rock or a box of Lasagna.
 
BlackBook said:
Since it's all false you can just imagin whatever makes sense to you and it will be every bit as valid as anything else.
Click to expand...

Tuatara said:
Praying to a God or divine spirit is the same as praying to a rock or a box of Lasagna.
Click to expand...
But the question is how do people who believe prayer works (through supernatural means) think it works.

It is entirely irrelevant if it actually works or if it works in reality as a placebo or other effect.
 
jimithyashford said:
Ok, if this in unclear, let me rephrase and make it as clear as possible. I am not asking a psychological question. I am asking a theological question. I am not asking about the psychological effects of praying to a god, or a spirit, or an idol, or a jug of milk, or whatever. I am quite aware of the mental impacts of such activities and the many interesting studies on the subject.

I am asking a question directed that those who believe that prayer is, in fact, heard and responded to in some fashion by an omnipotent super being who can alter the course of events or conditions in response to said prayers. That is what I am talking about in this conversation. Based on your reply it sounds like you do not believe that such things actually happen, therefore the question is not really meant for you.

Not that I am trying to belittle the psychological point you are making, that is all very fascinating, that is just not what I am trying to discuss here.
Click to expand...

So the question is whether the "God" element is a necessary variable in the prayer equation to produce results, and if so, by what mechanism does it work, assuming free will and other tenants of Christianity are also in play.

Interesting topic.
 
pinqy said:
But the question is how do people who believe prayer works (through supernatural means) think it works.
Click to expand...
Asking about how people think is psychology, not theology, hence the many links to PsychologyToday.com.
 
Porkuloss said:
So the question is whether the "God" element is a necessary variable in the prayer equation to produce results, and if so, by what mechanism does it work, assuming free will and other tenants of Christianity are also in play.

Interesting topic.
Click to expand...

Let me clarify further. I am talking, specifically, about the petitioning of an interventionist deity via prayer. Prayer of some sort that would not involved a "god" element at all is not what I am referring to here. Not prayer in a broad sense, not prayer as in a self-administered form of psychological manipulation. But specifically prayer as delivered by an acolyte to a deity with hopes that their prayer will be acted upon in some manner.
 
BlackBook said:
Since it's all false you can just imagin whatever makes sense to you and it will be every bit as valid as anything else.
Click to expand...

Jesus dude, clearly this question is not for you. Stop lambasting me for being curious about how this process is structured internally within the belief system of theists. I can feel free to be curious about whatever I want, if you're not, then fine, shoo.
 
jimithyashford said:
Jesus dude, clearly this question is not for you. Stop lambasting me for being curious about how this process is structured internally within the belief system of theists. I can feel free to be curious about whatever I want, if you're not, then fine, shoo.
Click to expand...

No need for the aditude. There is no technical how-it's-made brakedown even within a given faith. Any veriation of "God moves in mysterious ways" is the catch-all phrase they ALL employ.

Even well meaning reserch institutions such as BioCyberNaught who study prayer and meditation affects on the brain have no real explination of how it all works.

We know THAT prayer works and we know that it works regardless of religion or deity. No one knows HOW it works.

The information you're looking for does not exist. More reserch is needed.
 
Last edited:
jimithyashford said:
Now I know I can't really get a strait answer to this question, cause there are 30k some off denominations of Christianity and probably at least a dozen major theological schools of thought on this question, but let me as you....who the heck is prayer supposed to work?

Almost every church service in every denomination I have ever attended has, at some point in there service, a prayers, dedications, and remembrances portion of the proceedings. Likewise religious people frequently post on Facebook asking for prayers for this or that cause or person or event. Sports teams pray for victory, politicians pray for our nation, soldiers pray for safety in battle, so on so forth. Our culture is absolutely inundated with this idea of petitioning God for some desired result.

But is that actually supposed to work? Doesn't God already have a plan? When you pray for him to do something, does your prayer have any effect at all on what will come to pass? Can praying actually change or modify the outcome of anything in any way? If it can, then did you convince God, through your prayers, to do what he otherwise was not going to? If not, if God was going to do it all along anyway, then your prayers didn't do anything, right?


So can someone explain this to me? Can prayer actually alter the course of what otherwise would have happened without your prayer? If it can, then did your prayer alter God's plan? Or was God's plan that you would pray all along, therefore your pray wasn't really free will?

Makes no sense...
Click to expand...

I am a person who prays for and expects miracles, but I don't pretend to know how it works. I just know that it does. I have been in situations that prompted me to ask prayer warriors to support me with their prayers. And if you have ever experienced the power in that, then you know what it means to FEEL those prayers. There is no way to explain it. It must be experienced.

I know that if I get complacent or lazy and fail to pray, things don't go nearly so well for me. But I take Paul's admonition to 'pray without ceasing' seriously. It is simply a kind of awareness--either proactive or running in the background--of a sense that God is with you and keeping up a sort of mental conversation of sorts. Sort of like Topol in "Fiddler on the Roof" having conversations with God as he went about his daily business.

What does it accomplish? Sometimes those miracles happen. Sometimes you have the strength to get through what you have to get through. Sometimes you rejoice, sometimes you grieve, sometimes you feel like cussing out the entire world but there is a sense that you aren't alone in your joy, your anxiety, your grief, your trouble, your anger etc.

How does it work? I don't have a clue. I just know that it does.
 
jimithyashford said:
Now I know I can't really get a strait answer to this question, cause there are 30k some off denominations of Christianity and probably at least a dozen major theological schools of thought on this question, but let me as you....who the heck is prayer supposed to work?

Almost every church service in every denomination I have ever attended has, at some point in there service, a prayers, dedications, and remembrances portion of the proceedings. Likewise religious people frequently post on Facebook asking for prayers for this or that cause or person or event. Sports teams pray for victory, politicians pray for our nation, soldiers pray for safety in battle, so on so forth. Our culture is absolutely inundated with this idea of petitioning God for some desired result.

But is that actually supposed to work? Doesn't God already have a plan? When you pray for him to do something, does your prayer have any effect at all on what will come to pass? Can praying actually change or modify the outcome of anything in any way? If it can, then did you convince God, through your prayers, to do what he otherwise was not going to? If not, if God was going to do it all along anyway, then your prayers didn't do anything, right?


So can someone explain this to me? Can prayer actually alter the course of what otherwise would have happened without your prayer? If it can, then did your prayer alter God's plan? Or was God's plan that you would pray all along, therefore your pray wasn't really free will?

Makes no sense...
Click to expand...

Why not think of prayer as YOGA. I'm no expert, but sometimes it is just nice to stop, be silent and reflect on what has passed, the now and what is to come. Yoga or meditation is very similar. It is used as a form of reflection and inner release of stress and emotions. Many people - in my humble opinion, pray at night before they go to bed to somehow relieve their minds of all that has passed or maybe ease their minds of the unknown.

I'm sure you've taken a deep breath before for some specific reason. I'm sure you've also listened to music to unwind or maybe sat with a glass of wine outside on a summer evening and glazed up at the stars. Why do you do any of those things? In summary, prayer for a religious person in my opinion is a way for them to reflect, relax and move forward.
 
BlackBook said:
Asking about how people think is psychology, not theology, hence the many links to PsychologyToday.com.
Click to expand...

HOW people think is psychology. Nobody asked about that. The OP is asking WHAT people think.
 
jimithyashford said:
Let me clarify further. I am talking, specifically, about the petitioning of an interventionist deity via prayer. Prayer of some sort that would not involved a "god" element at all is not what I am referring to here. Not prayer in a broad sense, not prayer as in a self-administered form of psychological manipulation. But specifically prayer as delivered by an acolyte to a deity with hopes that their prayer will be acted upon in some manner.
Click to expand...

You make good points and ask interesting questions. It is striking how few of the religious have attempted answers.

It was the absurdity of the concept of prayer that played a large part in my abandonment of any remnant of religious faith.

Something to ponder: Nazi soldiers had "Gott mit Uns" on their belt buckles and padres, both Catholic and Protestant to lead them in prayer.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I am a person who prays for and expects miracles, but I don't pretend to know how it works. I just know that it does. I have been in situations that prompted me to ask prayer warriors to support me with their prayers. And if you have ever experienced the power in that, then you know what it means to FEEL those prayers. There is no way to explain it. It must be experienced.

I know that if I get complacent or lazy and fail to pray, things don't go nearly so well for me. But I take Paul's admonition to 'pray without ceasing' seriously. It is simply a kind of awareness--either proactive or running in the background--of a sense that God is with you and keeping up a sort of mental conversation of sorts. Sort of like Topol in "Fiddler on the Roof" having conversations with God as he went about his daily business.

What does it accomplish? Sometimes those miracles happen. Sometimes you have the strength to get through what you have to get through. Sometimes you rejoice, sometimes you grieve, sometimes you feel like cussing out the entire world but there is a sense that you aren't alone in your joy, your anxiety, your grief, your trouble, your anger etc.

How does it work? I don't have a clue. I just know that it does.
Click to expand...

Ok, but do you think God listens to your prayers and actually alters the course of events based on your prayers. Like someone having good health, when if you hadn't prayed they would have had bad health. Like things going well at work, but if you hadn't prayed they would have gone poorly? Does you praying actually alter the course of how events would have played out without your prayer? And if so, does that mean that you changed God's mind with your prayer? Or that we was going to do those things anyway whether you prayed or not?
 
BlackBook said:
No need for the aditude. There is no technical how-it's-made brakedown even within a given faith. Any veriation of "God moves in mysterious ways" is the catch-all phrase they ALL employ.

Even well meaning reserch institutions such as BioCyberNaught who study prayer and meditation affects on the brain have no real explination of how it all works.

We know THAT prayer works and we know that it works regardless of religion or deity. No one knows HOW it works.

The information you're looking for does not exist. More reserch is needed.
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand my question. Which is very confusing to me, since I feel I have worded it as clearly as humanly possible. But C'est la Vie.
 
jimithyashford said:
No sir, I am sorry, but I did not ask what the purpose of prayer was. I asked how prayer works. Those are two differnet questions. "What is the purpose of a car" and "how does a car work" are two extremely different questions with very different answers.

If you will refer back to my post at the top of this discussion I asked: "how the heck is prayer supposed to work?" and "Can praying actually change or modify the outcome of anything in any way? If it can, then did you convince God, through your prayers, to do what he otherwise was not going to?"

And your reply did not answer those questions. You reply merely affirmed that prayer DOES (in your experience) cause change, but did not answer HOW it causes change or if prayer alters the course of what otherwise would have been. Now you may not like that question, and if you don't like it you are under no obligation to answer it, but your previous reply did not answer the question.



I am asking you to speak on your own belief as to how prayer works. I am not asking you to speak for God or to reveal to me the innermost secrets of divinity, you couldn't do that anyway. I am asking you to merely explain to me how YOU think it works. And surely you have all of the authority you need to discuss your own beliefs on the matter.
Click to expand...

i told you how it works. it was pretty simple.
 
jimithyashford said:
I don't think you understand my question. Which is very confusing to me, since I feel I have worded it as clearly as humanly possible. But C'est la Vie.
Click to expand...
I think I understand exactly what you're asking. You were clear. My answer is also clear.

The information you are looking for does not exist.
 
ludin said:
i told you how it works. it was pretty simple.
Click to expand...

No, you did not, no part of your explanation detailed how it works. You just stated it does work and you've seen it work. You gave an assertion, not an explanation, and if you are not familiar with the difference between those two things, discussion with you is unlikely to be productive.


What is it with people on this forum and epidemic levels of unwillingness to answer probing questions? It's like everyone on this site spends their time answering the questions they would rather have been asked rather than the one they were, which is remarkable in it's uselessness.
 
BlackBook said:
I think I understand exactly what you're asking. You were clear. My answer is also clear.

The information you are looking for does not exist.
Click to expand...

You are claiming that no one has an opinion/theory as to how prayers are answered? Weird.
 
BlackBook said:
I think I understand exactly what you're asking. You were clear. My answer is also clear.

The information you are looking for does not exist.
Click to expand...

You are factually incorrect. I have heard pastors and reverend and theologians expound at great length about the mechanics and nature of prayer and how it intercedes upon the regular order of events. I could take 10 seconds on google and find a dozen write ups/discussions/blog post on the subject. However those are all passive reading experiences and I came here seeking someone to actively engage on the subject.

If you do not find the subject compelling or worthwhile then you don't have to be a part of this discussion. Do you normally make a habit of jumping on people asking others about the details of their superstitions and chastise them for the pointlessness of it? You need a better hobby. Now unless you have something fruitful to input then away with you.
 
jimithyashford said:
Ok, but do you think God listens to your prayers and actually alters the course of events based on your prayers. Like someone having good health, when if you hadn't prayed they would have had bad health. Like things going well at work, but if you hadn't prayed they would have gone poorly? Does you praying actually alter the course of how events would have played out without your prayer? And if so, does that mean that you changed God's mind with your prayer? Or that we was going to do those things anyway whether you prayed or not?
Click to expand...

Disclaimer: I do not tell anybody what they must believe and I won't fight about religion with anybody. I do not believe that everybody's spiritual journey can be or will be like anybody else's. So having said that, and since you asked ( :) ):

I do believe we have been given the power, by God, to alter our own destiny. I believe God knows the outcome if we continue on the path we are on, and via prayer, which for all practical purposes is the means by which we communicate with God, we can hear and obey to make better choices or stop something we are doing that is harmful to ourselves or others which is my definition of sin. If there was no way to be better, to choose more wisely, to make a difference, then we are simply characters on some sort of cosmic stage helpless to alter or avoid a fate already determined for us. And the God I know is not cruel.

I have to believe prayer does make a difference or I can see no purpose for it. Certainly the ancient people of the Old Testament believed that things could be different because the Old Testament is full of examples of it. And there are many New Testament examples and throughout history where an encounter with the Divine changed a person's life in amazing ways.

Will sometimes we experience a miracle? I believe I have. Do most prayers result in obvious miracles? Mine sure don't. But all I know is I am convinced that I am far better off with prayer than when I neglect it.
 
jimithyashford said:
You are factually incorrect. I have heard pastors and reverend and theologians expound at great length about the mechanics and nature of prayer and how it intercedes upon the regular order of events. I could take 10 seconds on google and find a dozen write ups/discussions/blog post on the subject. However those are all passive reading experiences and I came here seeking someone to actively engage on the subject.

If you do not find the subject compelling or worthwhile then you don't have to be a part of this discussion. Do you normally make a habit of jumping on people asking others about the details of their superstitions and chastise them for the pointlessness of it? You need a better hobby. Now unless you have something fruitful to input then away with you.
Click to expand...
The attitude isn't neccery.

Instead of causally dismissing the links from PsychologyToday, look at the different kinds of prayers attempted. Some types of prayer met with success while other types of prayer always fail. That directly relates to your question.

When you ask for information and dismiss what we offer it makes it seem like you don't actually want to discuss the topic you brought up.

In other words casualy dismissing links makes this look like a bait thread and you just another anti-theist looking to piss people off.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Disclaimer: I do not tell anybody what they must believe and I won't fight about religion with anybody. I do not believe that everybody's spiritual journey can be or will be like anybody else's. So having said that, and since you asked ( :) ):

I do believe we have been given the power, by God, to alter our own destiny. I believe God knows the outcome if we continue on the path we are on, and via prayer, which for all practical purposes is the means by which we communicate with God, we can hear and obey to make better choices or stop something we are doing that is harmful to ourselves or others which is my definition of sin. If there was no way to be better, to choose more wisely, to make a difference, then we are simply characters on some sort of cosmic stage helpless to alter or avoid a fate already determined for us. And the God I know is not cruel.

I have to believe prayer does make a difference or I can see no purpose for it. Certainly the ancient people of the Old Testament believed that things could be different because the Old Testament is full of examples of it. And there are many New Testament examples and throughout history where an encounter with the Divine changed a person's life in amazing ways.

Will sometimes we experience a miracle? I believe I have. Do most prayers result in obvious miracles? Mine sure don't. But all I know is I am convinced that I am far better off with prayer than when I neglect it.
Click to expand...

Ok, thank your for being forthright about your beliefs. But I can't help but feel you haven't answered the main thrust of my question. Does your prayer actually change that God was otherwise going to do.

So if Person A is very ill, and they and their friends and family pray, and God intervenes to bless that person with recovery, did the prayer actually convince God to do that? Or to put it another way, without that prayer would God have not blessed that person? Does prayer actually change or alter what god had been planning to do prior to the prayer?
 
BlackBook said:
The attitude isn't neccery.

Instead of causally dismissing the links from PsychologyToday, look at the different kinds of prayers attempted. Some types of prayer met with success while other types of prayer always fail. That directly relates to your question.

When you ask for information and dismiss what we offer it makes it seem like you don't actually want to discuss the topic you brought up.

In other words casually dismissing links makes this look like a bait thread and you just another anti-theist looking to piss people off.
Click to expand...

What the hell man? In my previous reply to you I said I am already familiar with that material and I agree that it is interesting but that it is not what I am asking about on this thread.I didn't dismiss your link at all. I lauded it, I agreed that it is fascinating material, I am familiar with those studies. But that is not the question I am here asking. I am not seeking a psychological discussion. I am seeking a theological one. And you telling me that no such information or material exists, when it quite clearly does, is not helpful or insightful.

If you are willing to discuss the theological mechanics behind intercessory prayer, then please stay around, if you want to discuss the mental and emotional impact of prayer and prayer-like activity upon the participant, that is a fascinating topic, but not the topic I am discussing here.

Jeeze, why is that so hard to grasp? They are two different topics, both fine and interesting, but I have one particular one in mind here today.
 
pinqy said:
You are claiming that no one has an opinion/theory as to how prayers are answered? Weird.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I really am having a very hard time understand what exactly it is they are objecting to or have a problem with.
 
jimithyashford said:
Ok, thank your for being forthright about your beliefs. But I can't help but feel you haven't answered the main thrust of my question. Does your prayer actually change that God was otherwise going to do.

So if Person A is very ill, and they and their friends and family pray, and God intervenes to bless that person with recovery, did the prayer actually convince God to do that? Or to put it another way, without that prayer would God have not blessed that person? Does prayer actually change or alter what god had been planning to do prior to the prayer?
Click to expand...

I honestly don't know. God is God and if we mortals could fully understand his ways or His plan or His intent, he wouldn't be much of a God would He. But in my heart do I believe prayer can and does change the course of things? Yes I do. I have witnessed in my life things that would stretch coincidence far past reasonable possibility and usually this happens when God gives us what we need instead of what we think we need; when we get what would answer the prayer instead of what we thought would have answered the prayer. And sometimes God says no. And sometimes it seems as if He isn't there or hearing me at all which sometimes tests the depths of our faith.

But ultimately, when I pray, things just go better than when I don't so I have to believe there is a power God gives us in prayer to change things.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom