• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

How Is Prayer Supposed to work?

humbolt said:
I think you have some confusion about "God's plan". Understand, God turns all things to work for good. It's (prayer) not a petition made for which the outcome is necessarily what we might prefer it to be. We have horizons beyond which we cannot see, and we can't therefore determine what the ultimate outcome of an event extended in it's repercussions will be. In fact, a prayer may be answered as we desire, but for reasons that have little to do with our particular desire. Prayer, at it's very least is a two part affair. One part is praying, and the other, perhaps more significant part is listening. There's much more to it, and the striking thing to me from people who question prayer is that they believe it to be a simple endeavor. It's not. One does not simply get on one's knees, ask to win the lottery or save Aunt Bertha from cancer, and wait for the outcome.

The idea that this is a static event is sadly mistaken. It's not linear. We have free will - a serious complication to any linear thought regarding prayer and God's plan.
Click to expand...

Ok so can prayer cause someone to live who otherwise would have died of their illness or not? Can prayer cause someone to survive a deployment in Syria who otherwise would have died or not? Can praying for friends with a failing marriage result in their marriage working out where otherwise it would not have? Can prayer actually do these things, and if it can, how on earth does your being willing to listen have any effect whatsoever.

How does your listening or not listening to God's message have any impact at all on whether or not Aunt Sally's cancer cells go into remission? How does your listening or not listening to God's message affect whether or not the Tornado tearing through Oklahoma hits your parent's house or not?
 
jimithyashford said:
Ok so can prayer cause someone to live who otherwise would have died of their illness or not? Can prayer cause someone to survive a deployment in Syria who otherwise would have died or not? Can praying for friends with a failing marriage result in their marriage working out where otherwise it would not have?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Can prayer actually do these things, and if it can, how on earth does your being willing to listen have any effect whatsoever.
How does your listening or not listening to God's message have any impact at all on whether or not Aunt Sally's cancer cells go into remission? How does your listening or not listening to God's message affect whether or not the Tornado tearing through Oklahoma hits your parent's house or not?
Click to expand...

Part of prayer is the entreaty to God to make his will known and understood. God will speak to you, but you'll never know unless you listen. Effective prayer is much more like meditation than you seem to believe, and you must remain receptive to answers because they will not necessarily come at a time and in the manner you may expect. These are significant events, but entirely and exclusively personal.
Click to expand...
 
humbolt said:
Yes.



Part of prayer is the entreaty to God to make his will known and understood. God will speak to you, but you'll never know unless you listen. Effective prayer is much more like meditation than you seem to believe, and you must remain receptive to answers because they will not necessarily come at a time and in the manner you may expect. These are significant events, but entirely and exclusively personal.
Click to expand...

Jesus dude, can you just answer the question. All of your replies only apply to prayers about how to conduct your own affairs and what choices you make in your own life. Not a single thing you've said applies to external events. Now I will ask one more time, is as clear a manner as humanly possible:

How does you meditating and reflecting on God's message or not have any effect on outside things beyond yourself and your own action. If Aunt Sally has cancer, and you pray to God and sit and meditate and listen very thoughtfully to his message.....how does that act have any impact at all on whether or not Aunt Sally's cancerous cells stop their aggressive division and go into remission? If a tornado warning is announced for a city where loved ones of your live and you pray for their safety, how does your reflection on the will of God have any impact on the trajectory of the storm and whether or not a funnel cloud touches down on your loved one's home or not? How does any conceivable level of enlightenment of understanding or peace of deference to God's will that you derive from prayer have any impact at all on external event separate from you and your actions?
Click to expand...
 
jimithyashford said:
humbolt said:
Jesus dude, can you just answer the question. All of your replies only apply to prayers about how to conduct your own affairs and what choices you make in your own life. Not a single thing you've said applies to external events. Now I will ask one more time, is as clear a manner as humanly possible:
Click to expand...

I believe the "Yes" in my previous post was sufficient, unless you'd prefer "No." Suit yourself, but if you aren't gonna read it, I'm not gonna bother writing it. Don't think for a second I had any idea that you are being honest in your intentions here. You would be wrong.

How does you meditating and reflecting on God's message or not have any effect on outside things beyond yourself and your own action. If Aunt Sally has cancer, and you pray to God and sit and meditate and listen very thoughtfully to his message.....how does that act have any impact at all on whether or not Aunt Sally's cancerous cells stop their aggressive division and go into remission? If a tornado warning is announced for a city where loved ones of your live and you pray for their safety, how does your reflection on the will of God have any impact on the trajectory of the storm and whether or not a funnel cloud touches down on your loved one's home or not? How does any conceivable level of enlightenment of understanding or peace of deference to God's will that you derive from prayer have any impact at all on external event separate from you and your actions?
Click to expand...

Why are you asking me such questions when I provided a link at the outset here which answers most of them for you without my involvement at all? Simply put, if your primary interest here is getting the magic formula to ask for events to go your way and just stuff, you're wasting your time. The response a person receives in prayer is proportional to the faith that person has. I could go on describing why understanding is a good idea, but since you don't care, I won't bother.
Click to expand...
 
humbolt said:
Don't think for a second I had any idea that you are being honest in your intentions here.
Click to expand...


What do you mean I am not honest? I stated my purpose up front from the start, there is not a hint of duplicity in anything I've said here. I want a believer to explain to me how they think prayer works in the sense of a process with real effects on the real world. I stated that up front, and have re-stated it many times in this thread, and have not been surreptitiously seeking anything other than exactly that.

Exactly what intention do you think I have that I have not stated?

humbolt said:
I believe the "Yes" in my previous post was sufficient
Click to expand...

Well then you have an incredibly anemic sense of what a good explanation looks like. My clearly stated objective this whole time has been to have someone explain to me HOW prayer effects the real work, how the whole process of petitioning through prayer vs god plan vs natural order relationship is structured as a sensibly theological model. That is why when you say "Yes, prayer can effect the real world" I am not content with your simple assertion that it can, and go on to ask a number of probing and clarifying questions using examples and scenarios. That is not at all obstinate, untoward, or petulant behavior. That is an incredibly common and reasonable way to probe further into a matter through pointed questioning. You may not feel inclined to answer them, but you certainly have no grounds to act put off or to pretend I am the odd one for asking further in such a way.


humbolt said:
Why are you asking me such questions when I provided a link at the outset here which answers most of them for you without my involvement at all?
Click to expand...

Because, as I believe I said in my very first post, I did not come to a debate forum to be referred to an outside source of reading material the the people I am discussing with may or may not wholly agree with. I can to a debate forum to dialogue directly with a person, have them tell me in their own words what they believe and be able to respond to further inquiry and basic Socratic questioning. Again, you may not feel inclined to participate, but you can hardly act affronted as if I am the odd one for seeking such a conversation in such a place as this.

humbolt said:
Simply put, if your primary interest here is getting the magic formula to ask for events to go your way and just stuff, you're wasting your time.
Click to expand...

Good thing that's not my interest then. For the, I feel, hundredth time on this forum, my only interest is to have someone explain to me in a reasonable and comprehensible way that shows they've given any amount of meaningful thought to the matter, how the process of intercessory prayer works.

humbolt said:
The response a person receives in prayer is proportional to the faith that person has.
Click to expand...

And again, the same thing I have asked a dozen time now. How does your level of faith have an impact on the ability of Sally's cancer cells to replicate or not? How does your level of faith have an effect on the path of a storm a thousand miles away? How does your level of faith impact whether God will do what he was already going to do anyway, or change course?

These are not crazy questions. These are questions that I feel, if I believed in such things, I would have given serious thought to and made a strong attempt to come up with an understanding of.
 
jimithyashford said:
So then what does it do. If God's plan is for, say, a person to die of cancer. And you pray, if prayer cannot alter God's plan then that person will still die. If God's plan is that the person lives through the cancer, then God will do that whether you pray or not.....right?

So then how does the prayer make a difference in the outcome of events.
Click to expand...


We don't know the plans of God.


Question: "Why pray? What is the point of prayer when God knows the future and is already in control of everything? If we cannot change God's mind, why should we pray?"

Answer: For the Christian, praying is supposed to be like breathing, easier to do than to not do. We pray for a variety of reasons. For one thing, prayer is a form of serving God (Luke 2:36-38) and obeying Him. We pray because God commands us to pray (Philippians 4:6-7). Prayer is exemplified for us by Christ and the early church (Mark 1:35; Acts 1:14; 2:42; 3:1; 4:23-31; 6:4; 13:1-3). If Jesus thought it was worthwhile to pray, we should also. If He needed to pray to remain in the Father’s will, how much more do we need to pray?

Another reason to pray is that God intends prayer to be the means of obtaining His solutions in a number of situations. We pray in preparation for major decisions (Luke 6:12-13); to overcome demonic barriers (Matthew 17:14-21); to gather workers for the spiritual harvest (Luke 10:2); to gain strength to overcome temptation (Matthew 26:41); and to obtain the means of strengthening others spiritually (Ephesians 6:18-19).

We come to God with our specific requests, and we have God's promise that our prayers are not in vain, even if we do not receive specifically what we asked for (Matthew 6:6; Romans 8:26-27). He has promised that when we ask for things that are in accordance with His will, He will give us what we ask for (1 John 5:14-15). Sometimes He delays His answers according to His wisdom and for our benefit. In these situations, we are to be diligent and persistent in prayer (Matthew 7:7; Luke 18:1-8). Prayer should not be seen as our means of getting God to do our will on earth, but rather as a means of getting God's will done on earth. God’s wisdom far exceeds our own.
Click to expand...
https://www.gotquestions.org/why-pray.html
 
Last edited:
jimithyashford said:
I mean think of some case you've seen where prayer intervened and made something happen. You say you've seen cases in your personal experience. So if God's plan was do to that all along, then what role did your prayers play in making it happen? Or to put it differently, if you had not prayed, would it not have happened?
Click to expand...

If I hadn't prayed, maybe it would not have happened....or maybe it would have happened. It depends on the what you're praying for. It could also be that God answers prayers for a reason that directly affects the person who prayed.

Like when my elderly cat was dying. She's been with me through some rough times in my life, so there's this kind of "bond" I had with her. She hadn't eaten for days (a major sign says the vet when she's dying), and was just lying there. I prayed to God if it's within His will, can I have some more time with her? The very next morning, I put food in front of her like I used to....she suddenly stood up and ate. I had been given a year and a half with her. When she was finally dying, I asked God to not let her suffer. She was half-unconscious and dead in a couple of hours. I felt the loss, but I was not devastated. I had accepted that from that morning she got an extended time with me. I think in that scenario, the answer was more for me than for the cat. I think God had added another foundation for my faith to trust Him.....to depend on Him.

God answers prayers, and He lets you know that it was answered.....sometimes, with a sense of humor. Like I just read a verse in the Old Testament about someone being reassured by God that He'll raise him (financially). I uttered, "Can you please raise me a little up, too?" At the end of that day, as I was leaving work for home, my boss said, "Oh by the way, we decided to give you a raise." It was a big raise! The term "raise." I automatically thought of what I'd asked God that morning - I knew He was letting me know in no uncertain terms that He answered.


Would they still happened had I not prayed? I don't know. More likely not - for they were meant as a message for me, I think.
 
Last edited:
jimithyashford said:
Ok, but do you think God listens to your prayers and actually alters the course of events based on your prayers. Like someone having good health, when if you hadn't prayed they would have had bad health. Like things going well at work, but if you hadn't prayed they would have gone poorly? Does you praying actually alter the course of how events would have played out without your prayer? And if so, does that mean that you changed God's mind with your prayer? Or that we was going to do those things anyway whether you prayed or not?
Click to expand...

IMO, no.
 
jimithyashford said:
What do you mean I am not honest? I stated my purpose up front from the start, there is not a hint of duplicity in anything I've said here. I want a believer to explain to me how they think prayer works in the sense of a process with real effects on the real world.
Click to expand...

Evangelicals apparently prayed and fasted for the wining of Trump.

With all the odds against Trump - with even his own party going against him - he won! look how surprised everyone was who'd thought he hadn't had a chance at all.
Who'd say it wasn't due to prayers?
 
Last edited:
jimithyashford said:
What do you mean I am not honest? I stated my purpose up front from the start, there is not a hint of duplicity in anything I've said here. I want a believer to explain to me how they think prayer works in the sense of a process with real effects on the real world. I stated that up front, and have re-stated it many times in this thread, and have not been surreptitiously seeking anything other than exactly that.

Exactly what intention do you think I have that I have not stated?



Well then you have an incredibly anemic sense of what a good explanation looks like. My clearly stated objective this whole time has been to have someone explain to me HOW prayer effects the real work, how the whole process of petitioning through prayer vs god plan vs natural order relationship is structured as a sensibly theological model. That is why when you say "Yes, prayer can effect the real world" I am not content with your simple assertion that it can, and go on to ask a number of probing and clarifying questions using examples and scenarios. That is not at all obstinate, untoward, or petulant behavior. That is an incredibly common and reasonable way to probe further into a matter through pointed questioning. You may not feel inclined to answer them, but you certainly have no grounds to act put off or to pretend I am the odd one for asking further in such a way.




Because, as I believe I said in my very first post, I did not come to a debate forum to be referred to an outside source of reading material the the people I am discussing with may or may not wholly agree with. I can to a debate forum to dialogue directly with a person, have them tell me in their own words what they believe and be able to respond to further inquiry and basic Socratic questioning. Again, you may not feel inclined to participate, but you can hardly act affronted as if I am the odd one for seeking such a conversation in such a place as this.



Good thing that's not my interest then. For the, I feel, hundredth time on this forum, my only interest is to have someone explain to me in a reasonable and comprehensible way that shows they've given any amount of meaningful thought to the matter, how the process of intercessory prayer works.



And again, the same thing I have asked a dozen time now. How does your level of faith have an impact on the ability of Sally's cancer cells to replicate or not? How does your level of faith have an effect on the path of a storm a thousand miles away? How does your level of faith impact whether God will do what he was already going to do anyway, or change course?

These are not crazy questions. These are questions that I feel, if I believed in such things, I would have given serious thought to and made a strong attempt to come up with an understanding of.
Click to expand...

I freely admit I haven't explained well. From my perspective it appears you want the keys to the car, haven't learned how to drive or anything about operating the vehicle, but need the directions to Home Depot. You can't seem to get a direct answer to your questions, and you've concluded that the respondents are at fault and not your questions. I'll just withdraw here. I have better things to do.
 
jimithyashford said:
I mean think of some case you've seen where prayer intervened and made something happen. You say you've seen cases in your personal experience. So if God's plan was do to that all along, then what role did your prayers play in making it happen? Or to put it differently, if you had not prayed, would it not have happened?
Click to expand...

How do we know that God's plan was to do that all along?
It could also be that God went along with it because of the prayer.
 
Last edited:
humbolt said:
I freely admit I haven't explained well. From my perspective it appears you want the keys to the car, haven't learned how to drive or anything about operating the vehicle, but need the directions to Home Depot. You can't seem to get a direct answer to your questions, and you've concluded that the respondents are at fault and not your questions. I'll just withdraw here. I have better things to do.
Click to expand...

No, all I am asking is HOW the car works.....man, I feel I have been very very clear on this over and over, and if you are still missing my meaning then you must be willfully dense. I am not asking for the keys to the car, I am not asking for directions to Home Depot......I am asking how the car works. How. Does. It. Work? And I don't expect you to have all of the detailed information about wiring and fuel/air mixtures and transmissions, but you should have a basic mental model of what an internal combustion engine is and should be able to express the rudimentary mechanics to me, especially if you're a person who has spent any meaningful time in their life reading the Book about cars and listening to people give lectures on cars and studying cars and sitting in contemplation on cars.

And you're looking at me like I'm the weird or dishonest or stubborn one for asking how the damn car works. This is not a trick question. There is nothing wrong with my question, it is a perfectly reasonable and normal question any reasonable and normal person might ask regarding a process that doesn't make sense.
 
jimithyashford said:
No, all I am asking is HOW the car works.....man, I feel I have been very very clear on this over and over, and if you are still missing my meaning then you must be willfully dense. I am not asking for the keys to the car, I am not asking for directions to Home Depot......I am asking how the car works. How. Does. It. Work? And I don't expect you to have all of the detailed information about wiring and fuel/air mixtures and transmissions, but you should have a basic mental model of what an internal combustion engine is and should be able to express the rudimentary mechanics to me, especially if you're a person who has spent any meaningful time in their life reading the Book about cars and listening to people give lectures on cars and studying cars and sitting in contemplation on cars.
Click to expand...


I think the basics about how the car works had been given. That includes how and what makes the internal combustion engine effective.

Unless he's had in-depth studies of mechanics and cars, reading books and magazines about them isn't the same as doing an in-depth study.



There is nothing wrong with my question, it is a perfectly reasonable and normal question any reasonable and normal person might ask regarding a process that doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

No, there's nothing wrong with your question.

If you're genuinely interested, and you've got this burning question you want answered.........you ought to seek someone who did study for it.

I'd given you a credible link that addresses what we need to know about prayers.
 
Last edited:
tosca1 said:
I think the basic about how the car works had been given.
Click to expand...

No, it has not. All I have been told is that the car will go, and whether or not it goes depends on it fuel is right. "Prayer works, god answers them, if they are the right kind of prayers and you have the right faith".

Well just telling me "The car will go if you put the right gas in it, sometimes, but sometimes not, depending on if where you want to go is in line with where the car wants to do, otherwise it might not start at all" is NOT an answer to the question "how does the car work" and that is exactly the answer I am getting for how prayer works. Is it not?
 
jimithyashford said:
No, it has not. All I have been told is that the car will go, and whether or not it goes depends on it fuel is right.
Click to expand...

Well, that's true. You have to have faith.



"Prayer works, god answers them, if they are the right kind of prayers and you have the right faith".
Click to expand...

I can't speak for the poster, but speaking for myself I assume that by having the "right faith" would mean that we have to be willing to accept God's will. God does not always answer prayers the way we expect Him to, nor the way we want Him to answer. Submission to God's will. Trust in Him. That's very crucial.

A pastor talked about a mother who gave thanks to God during a service, for curing her son.....and he saw another couple walked quietly out the door. Later, he saw the couple and asked them if everything is okay. The wife said that it was just hard to listen that God had cured the other woman's son, and yet God had let their son died (just a few weeks ago).

God does things that isn't comprehensible to us at the moment. Like what happened to the couple who'd lost their son. Understanding, usually comes thru hindsight, later. That mother who'd lost her son had understood later on, and she ended up founding her own ministry.




Well just telling me "The car will go if you put the right gas in it, sometimes, but sometimes not, depending on if where you want to go is in line with where the car wants to do, otherwise it might not start at all" is NOT an answer to the question "how does the car work" and that is exactly the answer I am getting for how prayer works. Is it not?
Click to expand...

Go to that site I gave you, for starter.
 
Last edited:
tosca1 said:
Well, that's true. You have to have faith.





I can't speak for the poster, but speaking for myself I assume that by having the "right faith" would mean that we have to be willing to accept God's will. God does not always answer prayers the way we expect Him to, nor the way we want Him to answer. Submission to God's will. Trust in Him. That's very crucial.

A pastor talked about a mother who gave thanks to God during a service, for curing her son.....and he saw another couple walked quietly out the door. Later, he saw the couple and asked them if everything is okay. The wife said that it was just hard to listen that God had cured the other woman's son, and yet God had let their son died (just a few weeks ago).

God does things that isn't comprehensible to us at the moment. Like what happened to the couple who'd lost their son. Understanding, usually comes thru hindsight, later. That mother who'd lost her son had understood later on, and she ended up founding her own ministry.






Go to that site I gave you, for starter.
Click to expand...

Sigh, like I said to the other guy, I did not come to a debate site to be given some external reading assignment that the poster may or may not wholly agree with. I came to a debate site to dialogue directly with people, have them tell me what they believe, how they think it works, and be able to question and probe and exchange.

That is not at all what I am getting here. All I am getting is a very vague generalized nebulous notion that prayer most certainly does work, and most certainly can impact the course of event, but it may or may not if you have or have not the right kind of faith and if the prayer is maybe or maybe not in adherence with God's plan that he already had anyway, which your very prayer in the first place may or may not have been a part of.

It is clear to me that none of you have any idea, and haven't cared to sit down and really think about it and try to form a notion of how it works. And it just boggles my mind that you haven't. I cannot even fathom having something be that central to my world view and having so little curiosity as to have never sat down and really thought about it and formed a good working model of it. It just astounds me.
 
jimithyashford said:
Sigh, like I said to the other guy, I did not come to a debate site to be given some external reading assignment that the poster may or may not wholly agree with. I came to a debate site to dialogue directly with people, have them tell me what they believe, how they think it works, and be able to question and probe and exchange.
Click to expand...

What you're asking is for us to explain how the mind of God works, what His plans are - that, I can't explain.



That is not at all what I am getting here. All I am getting is a very vague generalized nebulous notion that prayer most certainly does work, and most certainly can impact the course of event, but it may or may not if you have or have not the right kind of faith and if the prayer is maybe or maybe not in adherence with God's plan that he already had anyway, which your very prayer in the first place may or may not have been a part of.
Click to expand...

All I can give to you as examples, are my own. Prayers are personal.
There is no cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all, in how God answers. There may be some similarities, but the reasons behind God's response(s) aren't.

I can't speak for the poster but I think he mentioned "listening." It's true.....eventually you'll know His reasons by "listening." Your faith does have an effect in your ability to "listen." The level of faith, I think, is measured by one's personal relationship with God. The deeper your relationship, the easier it is to hear Him.

Boy, He communicates in various ways.
Sometimes, you read the Bible and you come to a passage, and it suddenly hits you - He's talking to you!
Sometimes, you have a question and the answer comes to your mind, like a lit bulb (and you know it answers your question).......and sometimes He answers LITERALLY - He even gets your attention by repeating your question verbatim - with a booming voice that comes from the mouth of another person! Then, He proceeded to answer my question. Both had happened to me! The last one (happened at a workshop) was funny in a way.....thus I say God has a sense of humor.




It is clear to me that none of you have any idea, and haven't cared to sit down and really think about it and try to form a notion of how it works. And it just boggles my mind that you haven't. I cannot even fathom having something be that central to my world view and having so little curiosity as to have never sat down and really thought about it and formed a good working model of it. It just astounds me.
Click to expand...

We do have the basics (it's explained in the Bible), and some of us speak from experience. PLUS, we've heard thousands of testimonies about answered prayers. So, we definitely have more than just an idea!

It's just that to you, all those aren't enough.
 
Last edited:
tosca1 said:
What you're asking is for us to explain how the mind of God works, what His plans are - that, I can't explain.





All I can give to you as examples, are my own. Prayers are personal.
There is no cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all, in how God answers. There may be some similarities, but the reasons behind God's response(s) aren't.

I can't speak for the poster but I think he mentioned "listening." It's true.....eventually you'll know His reasons by "listening." Your faith does have an effect in your ability to "listen." The level of faith, I think, is measured by one's personal relationship with God. The deeper your relationship, the easier it is to hear Him.

Boy, He communicates in various ways.
Sometimes, you read the Bible and you come to a passage, and it suddenly hits you - He's talking to you!
Sometimes, you have a question and the answer comes to your mind, like a lit bulb (and you know it answers your question).......and sometimes He answers LITERALLY - He even gets your attention by repeating your question verbatim - with a booming voice that comes from the mouth of another person! Then, He proceeded to answer my question. Both had happened to me! The last one (happened at a workshop) was funny in a way.....thus I say God has a sense of humor.






We do have the basics (it's explained in the Bible), and some of us speak from experience. PLUS, we've heard thousands of testimonies about answered prayers. So, we definitely have more than just an idea!

It's just that to you, all those aren't enough.
Click to expand...

Because none of that adds up to any sensible operating notion of how prayer works. Does your prayer change Gods plan? Does that mean god was going to do it anyway or that he was not going to do it and you convince him otherwise? If yes then presumaly god would only answer a prayer that was a good and not harmful idea but presumably if it was a good idea and not harmful then that would have been what he would have done anyway. If god was going to do it all along, and the entire course of event, even your prayer, was all part of the plan from the start, then did you really pray, or did god pray to himself through you, or if you pray and god does something good does that mean if you hadn't prayed he would have allowed bad things to befall other due to your lack of prayers?

None of these very reasonable and sensible questions have been even close to answered in this thread except by the general shoulder shrugging "God works in mysterious ways" answer. Which isn't an answer it all, it's a cop out.
 
jimithyashford said:
Because none of that adds up to any sensible operating notion of how prayer works. Does your prayer change Gods plan? Does that mean god was going to do it anyway or that he was not going to do it and you convince him otherwise? If yes then presumaly god would only answer a prayer that was a good and not harmful idea but presumably if it was a good idea and not harmful then that would have been what he would have done anyway. If god was going to do it all along, and the entire course of event, even your prayer, was all part of the plan from the start, then did you really pray, or did god pray to himself through you, or if you pray and god does something good does that mean if you hadn't prayed he would have allowed bad things to befall other due to your lack of prayers?

None of these very reasonable and sensible questions have been even close to answered in this thread except by the general shoulder shrugging "God works in mysterious ways" answer. Which isn't an answer it all, it's a cop out.
Click to expand...

It appears your main difficulty is rectifying free will and omniscience. People have freewill; yet, God knew all of the future at creation. Essentially, ones prayer is answered at creation and experienced later.
 
jimithyashford said:
Because none of that adds up to any sensible operating notion of how prayer works.
Click to expand...

You mean none of it adds up to your expectation?

We know prayer works! It's not just a fluke or coincidence! Numerous testimonials, and from personal experiences attest to that.




Does your prayer change Gods plan?
Click to expand...

It depends on what plan. Universal plan, as in the big picture? His goal? I don't think so. Thus it depends on His will - that's why when we pray, it is with the intent to submit to God's will. Remember, even Jesus prayed to Him in the garden just before getting arrested.


Matthew 26
“My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”


Did God change His plan? No.




Does that mean god was going to do it anyway or that he was not going to do it and you convince him otherwise?
Click to expand...

Who knows for certain?




If yes then presumaly god would only answer a prayer that was a good and not harmful idea but presumably if it was a good idea and not harmful then that would have been what he would have done anyway.
Click to expand...

Who determines what is a good idea? Surely, what we think of as a good idea, may not be a good idea to God since He knows more than we do.
You're presuming what God will think and do. You can't do that.




If god was going to do it all along, and the entire course of event, even your prayer, was all part of the plan from the start, then did you really pray, or did god pray to himself through you, or if you pray and god does something good does that mean if you hadn't prayed he would have allowed bad things to befall other due to your lack of prayers?
Click to expand...

You can't debate using "IF." You can't seriously discuss using hypotheticals.





None of these very reasonable and sensible questions have been even close to answered in this thread except by the general shoulder shrugging "God works in mysterious ways" answer. Which isn't an answer it all, it's a cop out.
Click to expand...

When your questions insist on presuming what God can or will do, and you base your arguments on assumptions and hypotheticals - and you're referring to an ominiscient God - and you refuse to acknowledge that there are things that we don't fully understand - your questions are no longer sensible.
 
Last edited:
jimithyashford said:
Now I know I can't really get a strait answer to this question, cause there are 30k some off denominations of Christianity and probably at least a dozen major theological schools of thought on this question, but let me as you....who the heck is prayer supposed to work?
Click to expand...

It doesn't.
 
jimithyashford said:
Now I know I can't really get a strait answer to this question, cause there are 30k some off denominations of Christianity and probably at least a dozen major theological schools of thought on this question, but let me as you....who the heck is prayer supposed to work?

Almost every church service in every denomination I have ever attended has, at some point in there service, a prayers, dedications, and remembrances portion of the proceedings. Likewise religious people frequently post on Facebook asking for prayers for this or that cause or person or event. Sports teams pray for victory, politicians pray for our nation, soldiers pray for safety in battle, so on so forth. Our culture is absolutely inundated with this idea of petitioning God for some desired result.

But is that actually supposed to work? Doesn't God already have a plan? When you pray for him to do something, does your prayer have any effect at all on what will come to pass? Can praying actually change or modify the outcome of anything in any way? If it can, then did you convince God, through your prayers, to do what he otherwise was not going to? If not, if God was going to do it all along anyway, then your prayers didn't do anything, right?


So can someone explain this to me? Can prayer actually alter the course of what otherwise would have happened without your prayer? If it can, then did your prayer alter God's plan? Or was God's plan that you would pray all along, therefore your pray wasn't really free will?

Makes no sense...
Click to expand...

In the end, it's a faith building process instead of a faith wracking process. It's a kind of communication for the strengthening of one's faith, or to act as a testimony to strengthen the faith of those hearing the testimony. You say a prayer, God answers in a way and to an extent that you (or the covering scope) believe that it is answered or realized. You can use it as 'proof' for your personal belief. It by no means can be used as a public proof as that will do faith destroying than faith building. That is to say, God will not make this process more obvious such that others don't need faith to believe Him. Others won't get solid proof, they need faith to believe or not, as faith is for one's redemption. If God is proved, it simultaneously means that humans are no longer savable.

It has nothing to do with the various denominations. Denominations are more like netting fishes, you don't prepare a net with one hole to catch fishes. Your net comes with many many eyes/holes covering a large area for fish to fall for. When tackling with 7 billions of unique human brains in this world, the many denominations are for the many brains to fit for. The many denominations are all for the same message of salvation (which is well presented in the Apostle's Creed). In the case that a denomination doesn't carry the same message of salvation, it shall be defined as a heresy instead of a denomination.


It this doesn't make sense, blame your intelligence.

Tree of Knowledge = you choose the rely on your incapable intelligence to make a choice. The same day you eat of it the same day you shall surely die.

Your intelligence is for you to deal with this reality you are living in. It's not for you to judge if God exists. Only your faith may reach Him.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom