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Finding Religion

soylentgreen said:
That would be even worse, would it not. In that case the mother not only applied deceit but deliberately conspired to deceive. One begins to wonder what unethical behaviour a christian will get up to in order to convert someone if this story passes as a good one among christians. I wonder if jesus lied in order to get people to follow him?
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In that you assume Calamity's mother had objectives beyond restoring the lost documents. There's nothing that would indicate such an objective, but there is the demonstrated desire to continue their travels.
 
soylentgreen said:
That would be even worse, would it not. In that case the mother not only applied deceit but deliberately conspired to deceive. One begins to wonder what unethical behaviour a christian will get up to in order to convert someone if this story passes as a good one among christians. I wonder if jesus lied in order to get people to follow him?
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Good grief.
 
blackjack50 said:
Why do you have to be upset that they prayed? Why do you have to be "insulted" that they attributed it to God? Why not just accept this as it is...a good story that brought someone closer to God, and potentially brought a family closer together. Is that last thing worthy of the shame train? Come on.

Don't worry. Be happy.


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Apparently, for some, even an uplifting story which involves god, religion or prayer is just too much for them to bear. Sad for them. Actually.
 
humbolt said:
I bet it will be an interesting and worthwhile discussion, too. Sometimes these events are so personal in nature they can be difficult to explain and therefore extremely difficult to discuss. Given that it's your parents here, it should be easier. A few beers might help a little.
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It will certainly begin awkwardly enough. Dad knows I am an atheist. So, if I broach it wrong, he'll get defensive. I am sure. A few beers will help, as will me finding the right approach. I have to be careful that he does not think I am mocking him or challenging his new found faith.

I live for that stuff though. Maybe I will pray on it. I find that to be highly effective whenever I am uncertain of something.
 
calamity said:
It will certainly begin awkwardly enough. Dad knows I am an atheist. So, if I broach it wrong, he'll get defensive. I am sure. A few beers will help, as will me finding the right approach. I have to be careful that he does not think I am mocking him or challenging his new found faith.

I live for that stuff though. Maybe I will pray on it. I find that to be highly effective whenever I am uncertain of something.
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Oh, I have no doubt it will be somewhat awkward. Our powers of reason, by necessity, can't explain everything. It's great that you maintain an open mind on the matter.

"The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is', because the kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 17: 20-21
 
calamity said:
Apparently, for some, even an uplifting story which involves god, religion or prayer is just too much for them to bear. Sad for them. Actually.
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It is anger. A lot of times. Anger at religious people for the actions of a few religious people in their personal life. If they were "just an atheist," they wouldn't care.


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blackjack50 said:
It is anger. A lot of times. Anger at religious people for the actions of a few religious people in their personal life. If they were "just an atheist," they wouldn't care.


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I don't like giving credit where it's not due, over those who actually created the positive outcome. For instance, thanking "god" and the priest endlessly, when it's the doctors and medical researchers and EMT and even the guy who called 911 who saved your life.

It also just gets boring. Every time i see a jock interviewed i'm like "over under 10 seconds before they thank god," it creates a hostile environment for those who don't want to kneel in prayer and act utterly predictable

And if you were "just a theist" in the sense you mean, you wouldn't care either
 
chromium said:
I don't like giving credit where it's not due, over those who actually created the positive outcome. For instance, thanking "god" and the priest endlessly, when it's the doctors and medical researchers and EMT and even the guy who called 911 who saved your life.

It also just gets boring. Every time i see a jock interviewed i'm like "over under 10 seconds before they thank god," it creates a hostile environment for those who don't want to kneel in prayer and act utterly predictable

And if you were "just a theist" in the sense you mean, you wouldn't care either
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Lmao! So we should stop because it "creates a hostile environment?" Well listen. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you have the right to freedom of (or lack thereof) religion. Not the freedom FROM religion (or lack thereof). You don't get to pretend someone else's beliefs are "hostile" when all they did was thank their God for acting through good people. Or thanking God that good people did the right thing. In this tucked up world...someone showing positivity...is not the person to be "angry at."

So please. Check the victim mentality and spare me the "other people's beliefs are hostile because I disagree with them."


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blackjack50 said:
Lmao! So we should stop because it "creates a hostile environment?" Well listen. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you have the right to freedom of (or lack thereof) religion. Not the freedom FROM religion (or lack thereof). You don't get to pretend someone else's beliefs are "hostile" when all they did was thank their God for acting through good people. Or thanking God that good people did the right thing. In this tucked up world...someone showing positivity...is not the person to be "angry at."

So please. Check the victim mentality and spare me the "other people's beliefs are hostile because I disagree with them."


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That isn't what i meant. The teammates will be under pressure to join and there's even been cases of high school kids kicked off the team because they wouldn't join the 'team prayer' So no it's not harmless in all circumstances

But now that you mention freedom FROM religion, and that to me is as essential to a free society as freedom OF religion, how about when i'm walking to class just trying to get an education and some bitch in her 50s is in my way holding a "You deserve hell" sign? Oh yes, i can just sense the positivity
 
humbolt said:
In that you assume Calamity's mother had objectives beyond restoring the lost documents. There's nothing that would indicate such an objective, but there is the demonstrated desire to continue their travels.
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I disagree, there is something that does give an indication.

Mom says she simply told him that she was praying. ......, he made a deal with my mom. "If your praying works, I'll start going to church."
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At that point she could have revealed that more than just praying went into her effort. Whether planned out or just opportunistic she had just been given an objective of getting her husband to church. And she took it.
 
calamity said:
Apparently, for some, even an uplifting story which involves god, religion or prayer is just too much for them to bear. Sad for them. Actually.
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Do you not get this is only an uplifting story so long as it is being preached to the converted. It was a parable and like all parables it preaches a message that is pleasing to the intended listener. Which i am not. And like many parables including those of the bible when the pleasing message is discarded we can sometimes find some dubious morality at play.

I do not think it a sad thing to miss one uplifting story, there are others. But i do think it arrogant to assume that a story about god, religion or prayer must be uplifting to hear.
 
blackjack50 said:
It is anger. A lot of times. Anger at religious people for the actions of a few religious people in their personal life. If they were "just an atheist," they wouldn't care.


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It could also be that i am pointing out a flaw in his story. I am aware that it is not pleasing but the flaw is still there never the less. And when i am just an atheist then i do not care. But you really have no understanding of atheism if you think that is the only position i can maintain. In this case not so much a militant atheist as a writers critique atheist.
 
soylentgreen said:
Do you not get this is only an uplifting story so long as it is being preached to the converted. It was a parable and like all parables it preaches a message that is pleasing to the intended listener. Which i am not. And like many parables including those of the bible when the pleasing message is discarded we can sometimes find some dubious morality at play.

I do not think it a sad thing to miss one uplifting story, there are others. But i do think it arrogant to assume that a story about god, religion or prayer must be uplifting to hear.
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That's why it was posted in religious discussion. You'll find out soon enough why this sub forum is different than philosophical discussions or general topics or the tavern. But, it's not my job to explain all that, only to say it was posted where it belongs and is quite appropriate for this sub forum.
 
soylentgreen said:
I disagree, there is something that does give an indication.



At that point she could have revealed that more than just praying went into her effort. Whether planned out or just opportunistic she had just been given an objective of getting her husband to church. And she took it.
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I already pointed out that he was aware that she made calls.
 
chromium said:
I don't like giving credit where it's not due, over those who actually created the positive outcome. For instance, thanking "god" and the priest endlessly, when it's the doctors and medical researchers and EMT and even the guy who called 911 who saved your life.

It also just gets boring. Every time i see a jock interviewed i'm like "over under 10 seconds before they thank god," it creates a hostile environment for those who don't want to kneel in prayer and act utterly predictable

And if you were "just a theist" in the sense you mean, you wouldn't care either
Click to expand...

I am sure my mom believes god helped her out, with the help of good people. My dad probably just learned a more important lesson: be more like mom and he just might live longer. Not because God, but because he knows getting all worked up over nothing will give him a stroke.
 
chromium said:
But now that you mention freedom FROM religion, and that to me is as essential to a free society as freedom OF religion, how about when i'm walking to class just trying to get an education and some bitch in her 50s is in my way holding a "You deserve hell" sign? Oh yes, i can just sense the positivity
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Just out of curiosity, have you ever been walking to class and seen "some bitch in her 50s is in my way holding a 'You deserve hell' sign"?

I grew up with the cartoon meme (via the New Yorker, etc.) of the bearded old man on the street holding a "The end is near" sign, but I've never actually seen someone like that old man or some bitch in her 50's holding signs like these.

But if I were walking to class, I'd regard these as part of my education...the broadening of my horizons, which is what college is all about.
 
nota bene said:
Just out of curiosity, have you ever been walking to class and seen "some bitch in her 50s is in my way holding a 'You deserve hell' sign"?

I grew up with the cartoon meme (via the New Yorker, etc.) of the bearded old man on the street holding a "The end is near" sign, but I've never actually seen someone like that old man or some bitch in her 50's holding signs like these.

But if I were walking to class, I'd regard these as part of my education...the broadening of my horizons, which is what college is all about.
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I have seen a guy who was passing out bibles on campus tell the person I was with who had a Yamaka that he was going to hell.
 
soylentgreen said:
I disagree, there is something that does give an indication.



At that point she could have revealed that more than just praying went into her effort. Whether planned out or just opportunistic she had just been given an objective of getting her husband to church. And she took it.
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Calamity's mother was praying well before his father made his promise, and that promise was made contingent upon a successful result. You'll have to ask her if she was praying for the return of lost documents, or for her husband to start a journey into belief, or both. The Op suggests the former.

If you are predisposed to portray this as a happy coincidence, it doesn't concern me. What you believe is exclusively your concern. By myself, I have no ability to or interest in changing your views.
 
humbolt said:
Calamity's mother was praying well before his father made his promise, and that promise was made contingent upon a successful result. You'll have to ask her if she was praying for the return of lost documents, or for her husband to start a journey into belief, or both. The Op suggests the former.

If you are predisposed to portray this as a happy coincidence, it doesn't concern me. What you believe is exclusively your concern. By myself, I have no ability to or interest in changing your views.
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I think she might have just been praying that God would help calm my dad down ;)
 
RAMOSS said:
I have seen a guy who was passing out bibles on campus tell the person I was with who had a Yamaka that he was going to hell.
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yeah, every fall and spring the jesus freaks show up. Obviously sermonizing in the cold would be too much for the good lord to expect. Most of them just rant and rave. *One* time i saw a non religious loony playing dressed as a clown playing with toys, but otherwise it's always the fundies who have never had any affiliation with the school and so have no business being there. One time there was a college age girl raving about end times near the football stadium. She *might* have been a student, but i doubt it. And yeah, one time the bitch in her 50s was holding a "you deserve hell" sign. We have also had westboro come way out here in the past with their signs and hate mongering. I mean westboro alone should erase any doubt that these antagonisms are real
 
nota bene said:
Just out of curiosity, have you ever been walking to class and seen "some bitch in her 50s is in my way holding a 'You deserve hell' sign"?

I grew up with the cartoon meme (via the New Yorker, etc.) of the bearded old man on the street holding a "The end is near" sign, but I've never actually seen someone like that old man or some bitch in her 50's holding signs like these.

But if I were walking to class, I'd regard these as part of my education...the broadening of my horizons, which is what college is all about.
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Here she is (not my pic and no that's not me):

5ydh.jpg


Most the time she was standing and yelling like a mental hospital patient. She even went on about how she too was an "evil sinner" in her youth, who danced to disco!

It's no business of yours what kind of education i get (as if i need to be reminded how hateful religious nuts can be) and no place of hers to even be there. This place exists for the students only, just like i would never defend an atheist who goes barging into a church to start crap. And if she's just pissing almost everyone off, as most the time i just saw people yelling back at her, they should have every right to have her wheeled out of there, just like the church would the atheist
 
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calamity said:
That's why it was posted in religious discussion. You'll find out soon enough why this sub forum is different than philosophical discussions or general topics or the tavern. But, it's not my job to explain all that, only to say it was posted where it belongs and is quite appropriate for this sub forum.
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It should make no difference being posted in religious discussion. It is not as if this board is only for theists. This time instead of discussing a general point or a philosophical perspective i critiqued the story itself. And as i said, while to theists these stories are uplifting and noble i as an atheist more often see another story that is not very nice at all.

I already pointed out that he was aware that she made calls.
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Not in the original story and not directly to me. And by doing so the story unravels as the reader is left wondering why he chose prayer over people actively looking for the documents. You now have loose ends.

I am sure my mom believes god helped her out, with the help of good people. My dad probably just learned a more important lesson: be more like mom and he just might live longer. Not because God, but because he knows getting all worked up over nothing will give him a stroke.
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Again i would like to say that it has not been my intention to criticise your parents in any way. It is the story i am focusing on. It is not that i do not understand the uplifting part of the story, but that is just the parable, not the story. Often enough a christian parable will have a more darker side to it.
 
humbolt said:
Calamity's mother was praying well before his father made his promise, and that promise was made contingent upon a successful result. You'll have to ask her if she was praying for the return of lost documents, or for her husband to start a journey into belief, or both. The Op suggests the former.

If you are predisposed to portray this as a happy coincidence, it doesn't concern me. What you believe is exclusively your concern. By myself, I have no ability to or interest in changing your views.
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No, that is not true, the promise was made on the contingency that prayer would give a positive result.
It is not the result of the documents being found or what the mother believes. But it is a question of the fathers start on his journey into belief. It began on a lie. A lie by omission and even if for the best of intentions. It is still a lie.

I do not see how you can change my view when i can copy and paste the evidence of my views at any time.
 
soylentgreen said:
No, that is not true, the promise was made on the contingency that prayer would give a positive result.
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No, and don't play games. The mother was praying before any promise was offered. You assume motives not in evidence at all.


It is not the result of the documents being found or what the mother believes. But it is a question of the fathers start on his journey into belief. It began on a lie. A lie by omission and even if for the best of intentions. It is still a lie.
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You have no way of knowing what the mother or father believes. You simply have made your own conclusion based on your own prejudice. An "I don't know" would be sufficient and correct.

I do not see how you can change my view when i can copy and paste the evidence of my views at any time.
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I have no interest in changing your view, as I said in the previous post. Your view of spiritual things is of no concern to me, and if you understood the nature of such things, you'd realize that I am powerless to change your mind on any such thing. Only you could do that.
 
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