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Non-Dualism[W:36]

Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
Not at all Satan is the source of evil. That doesn't make him a God he is still a created being.
Just one with immense power.
Click to expand...

But you told RAMOS that God did not create Satan. If so, who created him? Further, as a Torah inclined Jew we fundamentally reject the idea that Satan is either the source of all evil, or an independent agent of God. Both ideas are heresies with no root in the Torah, and which call into question the supremacy of God.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

Sherman123 said:
But you told RAMOS that God did not create Satan. If so, who created him? Further, as a Torah inclined Jew we fundamentally reject the idea that Satan is either the source of all evil, or an independent agent of God. Both ideas are heresies with no root in the Torah, and which call into question the supremacy of God.
Click to expand...

Not at all.

God created lucifer. Lucifer was the guardian of Gods throne. From what we know he was the greatest angel God created.
Maybe he had a little free will we don't know.

What we do know is that lucifer grew jealous. He tried to overthrow God. He was cast out of heaven for his rebellion.
After that he set himself up or tries to set himself up as a god.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
He wasn't created by God if that is what you mean.
Click to expand...

Would you care to quote scripture on that??? What scripture do you have to counter Isaiah 44:24 where it says "God created all things"
 
Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
Not at all.

God created lucifer. Lucifer was the guardian of Gods throne. From what we know he was the greatest angel God created.
Maybe he had a little free will we don't know.

What we do know is that lucifer grew jealous. He tried to overthrow God. He was cast out of heaven for his rebellion.
After that he set himself up or tries to set himself up as a god.
Click to expand...

The struggle here is that as a Jew I don't recognize that entire story as being biblical, so we're talking at cross-purposes. But even if I did this still sounds a lot more like manicheanism, the idea that God would (or could) allow the creation of a rival who could 'cause' evil is deeply troubling to the idea of the 'One' God.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

Sherman123 said:
The concept of non-dualism is that not only is God 'One' but God is 'Everything'. In other words that there is no separation between the creator and the created, that there is nothing that isn't God. You're 'God', the chair is 'God, that errant thought you had is 'God', everything and anything is 'God'.

I'll borrow a quick description of the Jewish approach to this which is generally found in Chassidus and Kabala:

"The Kabbalistic name for this phenomenon, is "Ein Sof," meaning "without end." That is to say, that all existence is God’s existence, that there is nothing that isn’t god–and therefore God encompasses all existence–good and bad, pleasure and suffering–but does not necessarily have discrete characteristics or a personality (except when it does). God isn’t just in everyone and everything, it is everyone and everything."

It's very similar to Monism I suppose.

Anyways, historically it's been a very controversial and hotly debated subject since the School of Athens and I was curious what your thoughts were on the subject. Feel free to approach it from any religious lens, obviously mine is Jewish.
Click to expand...

I see no reason to argue with this idea. It makes perfect sense to me. Everything is God: the good, bad and the ugly. Works for me.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
Not at all.

God created lucifer. Lucifer was the guardian of Gods throne. From what we know he was the greatest angel God created.
Maybe he had a little free will we don't know.

What we do know is that lucifer grew jealous. He tried to overthrow God. He was cast out of heaven for his rebellion.
After that he set himself up or tries to set himself up as a god.
Click to expand...

The story of Lucifer is legend, not supported in the Bible. But whether Satan was Lucifer, Samael or whoever, God created him.

God created it. God knows it is happening. God allows it. What more is needed?
 
Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
Not at all Satan is the source of evil. That doesn't make him a God he is still a created being.
Just one with immense power.
Click to expand...

So then are you saying that God is not everything? God is not omnipotent?
 
Re: Non-Dualism

Sherman123 said:
But you told RAMOS that God did not create Satan. If so, who created him? Further, as a Torah inclined Jew we fundamentally reject the idea that Satan is either the source of all evil, or an independent agent of God. Both ideas are heresies with no root in the Torah, and which call into question the supremacy of God.
Click to expand...

In my belief as "God" or "life force" or "universe" is everything, all things are then God. You are God as am I as is ludin and so on. Would that be in line with what you as a Torah inclined Jew believe?

I would make the distinction here between "part of God" and "God." As I have come to understand through Zen teaching, "everything" has no parts. All (for lack of a better term) is seamless, One. As such there are no parts or pieces. How does that jibe with what you have learned through the Torah?
 
Re: Non-Dualism

Risky Thicket said:
In my belief as "God" or "life force" or "universe" is everything, all things are then God. You are God as am I as is ludin and so on. Would that be in line with what you as a Torah inclined Jew believe?

I would make the distinction here between "part of God" and "God." As I have come to understand through Zen teaching, "everything" has no parts. All (for lack of a better term) is seamless, One. As such there are no parts or pieces. How does that jibe with what you have learned through the Torah?
Click to expand...

So, I'm still learning about this area (in Jewish terms) but hope to finish a book on it within the next few days and hopefully will be able to comment better then. It's complicated because there is Torah (written and oral), then there is Kabbalah, then there is Chassidus, and then there are quasi-heretical thinkers like Spinoza, so synthesizing all of that isn't as simple as just going through the Tanakh and pulling out an answer. But that's part of the beauty, in my opinion, of Judaism.

However, I can give you a metaphor for a Jewish view of immanence that I liked a great deal:

"If you place a sponge in water, the water is everywhere, inside and outside the sponge, and yet it is all one body of water. We know that the water is made up of matter. G-d is not made up of matter, is not in matter, is not energy, is not in space, is not space, so there is nothing about this concept that would mean G-d is in parts. The universe is finite but G-d is not finite."

In this example God is the water, the sponge is creation. In Kabbalistic terms the creation is the tzimtzum, the area outside the sponge is beyond the veil, but all is God. However, it's more complicated than that because in Judaism (at least this vein of Judaism) God 'created' the sponge too.

My issue is trying to discern what that means, if I accept it, and what other explanations there are.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

Moderator's Warning:
There's been some nonsense posted in the thread. It needs to stop now as do any further replies to it.

Stick to being on-topic and productive in the thread or infractions and thread bans are next.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

Risky Thicket said:
So then are you saying that God is not everything? God is not omnipotent?
Click to expand...

why do people argue strawman? please show where I said any of that.
I never said he wasn't omnipotent.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

JohnPaul said:
The story of Lucifer is legend, not supported in the Bible. But whether Satan was Lucifer, Samael or whoever, God created him.

God created it. God knows it is happening. God allows it. What more is needed?
Click to expand...

Actually it is supported by the bible in several verses.
God did create Lucifer. God did not create evil though that would go against his nature and character.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
Actually it is supported by the bible in several verses.
God did create Lucifer. God did not create evil though that would go against his nature and character.
Click to expand...

If God created all, he created evil as well. Can't have a "God of all things, well, except this one thing."

I always felt that if there is a god, he really is All. Literally everything.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
why do people argue strawman? please show where I said any of that.
I never said he wasn't omnipotent.
Click to expand...

COuld you point to scripture that says God did not make satan, considering in Isaiah 44, it is stated God made everything
 
Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
Actually it is supported by the bible in several verses.
God did create Lucifer. God did not create evil though that would go against his nature and character.
Click to expand...

Please support this assertion with bible verses. Where does it say that. Isaiah 45:7 said God created both good and evil.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
why do people argue strawman? please show where I said any of that.
I never said he wasn't omnipotent.
Click to expand...

No one is arguing except you. Sherman started the thread to discuss non dualism. It is OK that you don't agree but I don't believe the intent of the OP was about proving anyone right or wrong.

I said that if God is not All or One that God then is not omnipotent.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

Risky Thicket said:
No one is arguing except you. Sherman started the thread to discuss non dualism. It is OK that you don't agree but I don't believe the intent of the OP was about proving anyone right or wrong.

I said that if God is not All or One that God then is not omnipotent.
Click to expand...


And, when it comes to the concept of good and evil, then god encompasses both of those.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

Risky Thicket said:
No one is arguing except you. Sherman started the thread to discuss non dualism. It is OK that you don't agree but I don't believe the intent of the OP was about proving anyone right or wrong.

I said that if God is not All or One that God then is not omnipotent.
Click to expand...

Sure you just made an argument about something I never said.
God can be omnipotent but not create everything.

not everyone is a god either.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
Sure you just made an argument about something I never said.
God can be omnipotent but not create everything.
Click to expand...

Not really. Using your definition then something other than God has the power to create. If that is true then God cannot be all powerful as something other than God has the power to create.

not everyone is a god either.
Click to expand...

Correct. Not everyone is a god. What I did say however is that everyone, everything, is God. By definition of non dualism there is only "God" and God is All. As such there cannot be other Gods. Everyone is not a god nor are they parts of God but rather everything is God.
 
Re: Non-Dualism

ludin said:
Actually it is supported by the bible in several verses.
God did create Lucifer. God did not create evil though that would go against his nature and character.
Click to expand...

Your God would be convicted of crimes aagainst humanity in any civilized court today.
 
Sherman123 said:
The concept of non-dualism is that not only is God 'One' but God is 'Everything'. In other words that there is no separation between the creator and the created, that there is nothing that isn't God. You're 'God', the chair is 'God, that errant thought you had is 'God', everything and anything is 'God'.

I'll borrow a quick description of the Jewish approach to this which is generally found in Chassidus and Kabala:

"The Kabbalistic name for this phenomenon, is "Ein Sof," meaning "without end." That is to say, that all existence is God’s existence, that there is nothing that isn’t god–and therefore God encompasses all existence–good and bad, pleasure and suffering–but does not necessarily have discrete characteristics or a personality (except when it does). God isn’t just in everyone and everything, it is everyone and everything."

It's very similar to Monism I suppose.

Anyways, historically it's been a very controversial and hotly debated subject since the School of Athens and I was curious what your thoughts were on the subject. Feel free to approach it from any religious lens, obviously mine is Jewish.
Click to expand...

this is a kind of panentheism
 
Re: Non-Dualism

JohnPaul said:
Your God would be convicted of crimes aagainst humanity in any civilized court today.
Click to expand...

Not really since He is the judge of all things not the other way around.
 
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