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The Politics of the Evangelical Right, and Their Very Public Sin[W258]

Schism said:
I recall we're to resist it. which is impossible apart from the Spirit. However, I don't recall being instructed to take up arms, unless you intend to slay ISIS with the sword of the Spirit. I also don't recall being instructed to legislate God's law and impose it upon non-believers.
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I just laid out for you the scriptural justification for it in Romans 13, etc.
 
Logicman said:
I just laid out for you the scriptural justification for it in Romans 13, etc.
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I see nothing in Romans 13 in regards to taking up arms and killing people. I do see we are to be subject to and to submit to the authorities.
And wouldn't that mean, that if the gov't wanted to kill you for whatever reason, that you would surrender in Christ?
 
Logicman said:
I just laid out for you the scriptural justification for it in Romans 13, etc.
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Therefore you won't complain when you pay increased taxes under Clinton, right???
 
Schism said:
I'm sure an entire thread could be devoted to What is an Evangelical and Who is an Evangelical.

Further, I stated in the OP:


I suspect that some born again persons are evangelical, and that some evangelicals are born again. However, I don't assume they are synonymous.

The topic is not about Evangelicals, Catholics, Amalekites, or any other religious label or people group.
It is about the conduct and activities of those who are born again.
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and well you would be incorrect.
 
Schism said:
I see nothing in Romans 13 in regards to taking up arms and killing people. I do see we are to be subject to and to submit to the authorities.
And wouldn't that mean, that if the gov't wanted to kill you for whatever reason, that you would surrender in Christ?
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The logic is unmistakable in Romans 13. If the government is an "agent of wrath" against an evildoer, and the evildoer is, say, ISIS, you wouldn't think the gov't officials would be doing the actual fighting, would you? No. The military - made up of Christians, Jews, etc. - would. And that is Christians taking up the sword.

Self-defense - a Christian husband slaying a knife-wielding assailant attacking his wife - is another example. Love does not stand idly by and let a murderer slay one's family.
 
RAMOSS said:
Therefore you won't complain when you pay increased taxes under Clinton, right???
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I'm retired with Social Security and Veteran's Disability Benefits, neither of which are taxable. But do enjoy getting jacked up by your own hussy, Ramoss. LOL!
 
Logicman said:
The logic is unmistakable in Romans 13.
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Why would one who is filled with and led by the Spirit depend upon logic to guide them in matters of taking a human life?

If the government is an "agent of wrath" against an evildoer, and the evildoer is, say, ISIS, you wouldn't think the gov't officials would be doing the actual fighting, would you? No. The military - made up of Christians, Jews, etc. - would. And that is Christians taking up the sword.
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Blessed are the peacemakers; there will always be wars. We're not to be entangled with the cares of this world.

The lost will always kill each other. It comes naturally, since it's in the nature of sin.

Self-defense - a Christian husband slaying a knife-wielding assailant attacking his wife - is another example. Love does not stand idly by and let a murderer slay one's family.
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If God is in fact in complete control, then the manner He chooses to bring you home is His choice and will. He can bring you home with cancer, a mack truck, or an intruder. It's not your life. remember?
 
Logicman said:
The logic is unmistakable in Romans 13. If the government is an "agent of wrath" against an evildoer, and the evildoer is, say, ISIS, you wouldn't think the gov't officials would be doing the actual fighting, would you? No. The military - made up of Christians, Jews, etc. - would. And that is Christians taking up the sword.

Self-defense - a Christian husband slaying a knife-wielding assailant attacking his wife - is another example. Love does not stand idly by and let a murderer slay one's family.
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If the Gov't is "ISIS" Romans 13 tells us that ISIS has been established by God - That ISIS are God's servants doing his work - that these are God's servants for good and you are to submit to ISIS if you are one of their subjects. You are not to rebel against what God has instituted. .. you are to obey or be punished.
 
Schism said:
The Politics of the Evangelical Right, and Their Very Public Sin



I used this article as a backdrop for the topic of this thread:
Born Again Christians have No Business Being Involved in Law, Politics, or War

Believers were called to spread the good news of eternal life in Christ, not impose God's Law upon a lost world, entangle themselves in the politick and cares of this world, or kill others in conquest of treasures and trade routes for the rich. Do you really believe that Jesus would pick up a machine gun to fight for the stupid **** we're fighting for? Or lead a (R) party committee to draft legislation to make it unlawful to sin? WTF is wrong with you?
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Nazi's thought the same of jews, no?
 
thinkagain said:
If the Gov't is "ISIS" Romans 13 tells us that ISIS has been established by God - That ISIS are God's servants doing his work - that these are God's servants for good and you are to submit to ISIS if you are one of their subjects. You are not to rebel against what God has instituted. .. you are to obey or be punished.
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Sometimes God does raise up enemies against an immoral state or people, like what happened with Nebuchadnezzar sacking Jerusalem. Did you see that in the Bible?
 
Schism said:
Why would one who is filled with and led by the Spirit depend upon logic to guide them in matters of taking a human life?
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Who says the logic isn't Holy Spirit inspired?

Schism said:
Blessed are the peacemakers; there will always be wars. We're not to be entangled with the cares of this world.

The lost will always kill each other. It comes naturally, since it's in the nature of sin.
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"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." - Luke 22:36 The people need a literal sword for what reason?

"Blessed be the LORD, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle." - Psalm 144:1

Schism said:
If God is in fact in complete control, then the manner He chooses to bring you home is His choice and will. He can bring you home with cancer, a mack truck, or an intruder. It's not your life. remember?
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So you're going to sit there on your rear end and watch criminals rape and murder your wife, and carve up your children? That's your idea of love?

You must protect yourself and your family 22 Important Bible Verses About Self Defense

16. Psalm 82:4 Rescue weak and needy people. Help them escape the power of wicked people.

17. Proverbs 24:11 Rescue captives condemned to death, and spare those staggering toward their slaughter.

18. 1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
 
Logicman said:
Who says the logic isn't Holy Spirit inspired?
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Logic, by definition, isn't an instruction from God.

"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." - Luke 22:36 The people need a literal sword for what reason?
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How many of the Apostles died in battle?

"Blessed be the LORD, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle." - Psalm 144:1
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David was denied the privilege of building the Temple because of blood on his hands.

So you're going to sit there on your rear end and watch criminals rape and murder your wife, and carve up your children? That's your idea of love?

You must protect yourself and your family 22 Important Bible Verses About Self Defense

16. Psalm 82:4 Rescue weak and needy people. Help them escape the power of wicked people.

17. Proverbs 24:11 Rescue captives condemned to death, and spare those staggering toward their slaughter.

18. 1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
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I see the word rescue and escape written there; But I don't see anything about killing others.
 
Schism said:
Logic, by definition, isn't an instruction from God.
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I certainly don't see that conclusion in the Bible. God gives wisdom, which can produce logic.

Schism said:
How many of the Apostles died in battle?
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Doesn't matter. They were told to take up their swords. And again, for what reason??

Schism said:
David was denied the privilege of building the Temple because of blood on his hands.
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So? Moses had blood on his hands too, and yet you can read about him on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus.
 
Logicman said:
I certainly don't see that conclusion in the Bible. God gives wisdom, which can produce logic.
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The highest qualities that God's wisdom can produce in man is submission, obedience, and faith. The Fruit of the Spirit does not contain violence.

Doesn't matter. They were told to take up their swords. And again, for what reason??
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Possibly for the same reason that Moses gave us divorce; because of the hardness of our hearts and the weakness of the flesh.

So? Moses had blood on his hands too, and yet you can read about him on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus.
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He was denied the promised land. His killing of Pharaoh's guard was an act of the flesh, not of the Spirit. In fact, Moses' struggle was with faith over logic. What seemed like the right thing to do, turned out to be the wrong thing altogether. Because God's path is illogical, by man's logic. Notice, Israel was DELIVERED from Egypt by the hand of God.

Not by an armed insurrection. not by rebellion. not by the strength of man or his cunning. No. Israel WALKED out of Egypt by the power of the Lord,fully under His devine power and protection.

That....THAT...is how we walk with the Lord. In peace, by faith, in submission, obeying, spreading the Good News, and loving and praying for those who persecute us.
 
Schism said:
The highest qualities that God's wisdom can produce in man is submission, obedience, and faith. The Fruit of the Spirit does not contain violence.
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God is that Spirit, and he surely called the Israelites to war and violence in the past, so your claim is moot.

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And don't forget it.
 
Logicman said:
Sometimes God does raise up enemies against an immoral state or people, like what happened with Nebuchadnezzar sacking Jerusalem. Did you see that in the Bible?
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Paul does not say "Sometimes". Paul is saying that every authority must be obeyed because it is from God.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that not everything Paul said was inspired ? Paul was trying get Christianity off the Roman radar. Being on the Roman radar was not a good thing back in the day. This is completely understandable and a good move by Paul.

What Paul was really saying (IMO) was that Christians should not rebel against Roman authority. Unfortunately, what he writes refers to all authorities throughout all time.

This of course is absurd. Many evil regimes that came later used this doctrine for evil purposes.

You can believe that such a doctrine was "inspired by God" if you like. I just do not share your opinion. To me this would be to make God a bit of an idiot and I do not believe that God is an idiot.
 
thinkagain said:
Paul does not say "Sometimes". Paul is saying that every authority must be obeyed because it is from God.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that not everything Paul said was inspired ? Paul was trying get Christianity off the Roman radar. Being on the Roman radar was not a good thing back in the day. This is completely understandable and a good move by Paul.

What Paul was really saying (IMO) was that Christians should not rebel against Roman authority. Unfortunately, what he writes refers to all authorities throughout all time.

This of course is absurd. Many evil regimes that came later used this doctrine for evil purposes.

You can believe that such a doctrine was "inspired by God" if you like. I just do not share your opinion. To me this would be to make God a bit of an idiot and I do not believe that God is an idiot.
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Sorry, I'll take Paul over your word on that.
 
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