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Hauntings

Northern Light said:
I think a lot of what you're saying has merit. Phenomena should first be separated from mundane causes and explanations. What I think is a tad bit flawed in extending this analysis too much is the notion that, because a lot of it can be ruled out, that all of it can be ruled out. This, at best, is a hypothesis, albeit a reasonable one. Do you disagree?



These are just guesses... but maybe that's because of timing, or location, or that true frequency (as opposed to mundane causes) is relatively rare. Some even suppose that there may be a human faculty for seeing them that not all humans possess. For instance, it has been suggested that children are particularly susceptible, maybe not because of their wild imaginations but perhaps because they are more sensitive or something.

Anyway... my point is... even if you take 1% of the anecdotal reports that seem the most real and plausible and parse them for corroborating details, this is enough to form an entire school of work. That's basically what paranormal science has done.



The body of your argument is that you yourself have not experienced them. Well, I haven't experienced Russia but I know it's there because other people have told me about it.



I don't consider myself as a believer or a non-believer, merely an experiencer. I can't claim any mechanism for how it works, I just know what I saw and it doesn't have a mundane explanation. What I'm curious about is, if there is theoretically some kind of layer of space beyond the physical that is more subtle, how on Earth could we use physical means (like machines) to detect it? Are ghosts subatomic or a different kind of matter completely?

If people can see ghosts with the naked eye then that implies there is a physical detection threshold. And if some ghosts can move objects then there is an interaction.
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In many reports the ghosts are clothed. How can clothes have spirits that live on?
 
Here's my thing.

Ghosts are the spirits of living things that didn't or couldn't move on. Right? Or they are echoes of the past.


Either way, ever notice how we only have ghosts from a relatively recent time period? Like, what, does spiritual energy have a shelf life? Where are all the ghosts of dinosaurs? And cave men? Earth should be crawling with ghost!
 
Northern Light said:
If people can see ghosts with the naked eye then that implies there is a physical detection threshold. And if some ghosts can move objects then there is an interaction.
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And if these things exist, then there is a way to measure them. Ghosts aren't new to humanity and it's not like we haven't had folk investigating them in the past and present. But every attempt to scientifically document them has produced nothing. So we have a long history of attempts to document and measure these events to no success. Does it mean they absolutely do not exist? No, but it certainly is starting to seem highly unlikely.

When y'all figure out how to make a Ghost-O-Meter, come back and we can discuss it. But all things being equal, there are other explanations for the paranormal events other than ghosts and magic.
 
KevinKohler said:
Here's my thing.

Ghosts are the spirits of living things that didn't or couldn't move on. Right? Or they are echoes of the past.


Either way, ever notice how we only have ghosts from a relatively recent time period? Like, what, does spiritual energy have a shelf life? Where are all the ghosts of dinosaurs? And cave men? Earth should be crawling with ghost!
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Slaughterhouses should be stuffed to bursting point with animal ghosts. They aren't because there is no such thing as spiritual energy. Those two words are just one of the meaningless catch-all new age phrases and shows a misunderstanding of the word energy.
 
Ikari said:
And if these things exist, then there is a way to measure them. Ghosts aren't new to humanity and it's not like we haven't had folk investigating them in the past and present. But every attempt to scientifically document them has produced nothing. So we have a long history of attempts to document and measure these events to no success. Does it mean they absolutely do not exist? No, but it certainly is starting to seem highly unlikely.

When y'all figure out how to make a Ghost-O-Meter, come back and we can discuss it. But all things being equal, there are other explanations for the paranormal events other than ghosts and magic.
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Really? There are explanations for objects moving on their own in homes? Not just a tiny bit, but a lot. Or people seeing apparitions of people they don't even know?

I'd love to hear your explanation for why, at 5 years old, the blankets on my bed were being pulled off of me in the middle of the night? Or why doors would fling open or slam without any source of wind or someone doing it? Or my whole family hearing people walking up and down the stairs at night, or in the hallways, even though everyone was in bed?

I must be making it up, right?

I'm a friend to science but it can't explain everything. There is a lot in the universe we don't know. And I disagree with your assertion that if it's happening, science should be able to detect it. If we don't have a ghost-o-meter then how should we go about doing that, scientifically?

From what little I've read on paranormal science, the only devices that can sometimes detect ghosts are EMF readers, but they don't exactly fall on the standard spectrum... which means they're on a spectrum beyond what the meters can detect or they are some kind other energy we don't yet understand.
 
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Northern Light said:
Really? There are explanations for objects moving on their own in homes? Not just a tiny bit, but a lot. Or people seeing apparitions of people they don't even know?

I'd love to hear your explanation for why, at 5 years old, the blankets on my bed were being pulled off of me in the middle of the night? Or why doors would fling open or slam without any source of wind or someone doing it? Or my whole family hearing people walking up and down the stairs at night, or in the hallways, even though everyone was in bed?

I must be making it up, right?

I'm a friend to science but it can't explain everything. There is a lot in the universe we don't know. And I disagree with your assertion that if it's happening, science should be able to detect it. If we don't have a ghost-o-meter then how should we go about doing that, scientifically?
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I don't know if you are making it up or not. All I know is that you have no measurement that it's ghosts, and until you do, it's far more likely that there is a rational, physical reason above ghosts and magic.

Just because science cannot currently "explain" a phenomenon, it doesn't mean magic did it. Come back with proof.
 
zyzygy said:
In many reports the ghosts are clothed. How can clothes have spirits that live on?
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What do you mean? Why would ghosts project themselves as naked?

Maybe I'm not understanding your question.
 
Northern Light said:
What do you mean? Why would ghosts project themselves as naked?

Maybe I'm not understanding your question.
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Because they are the embodiment of spirit, not fashion. Do clothes have ghosts too?
 
Ikari said:
I don't know if you are making it up or not. All I know is that you have no measurement that it's ghosts, and until you do, it's far more likely that there is a rational, physical reason above ghosts and magic.
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Who said anything about magic?

Ikari said:
Just because science cannot currently "explain" a phenomenon, it doesn't mean magic did it. Come back with proof.
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I wasn't talking about magical powers so I don't get this statement.

There's no rational explanation for what happened in my home other than it must be something paranormal. You weren't there. :shrug:

Like I said, I don't have to prove myself to you or the culture of science because it ultimately doesn't matter if you believe me or not. I know what I experienced and it happened to a home of skeptics and not people who had pre-existing beliefs in this stuff. We moved homes because of it.
 
Northern Light said:
Who said anything about magic?



I wasn't talking about magical powers so I don't get this statement.

There's no rational explanation for what happened in my home other than it must be something paranormal. You weren't there. :shrug:

Like I said, I don't have to prove myself to you or the culture of science because it ultimately doesn't matter if you believe me or not. I know what I experienced and it happened to a home of skeptics and not people who had pre-existing beliefs in this stuff. We moved homes because of it.
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OK, whatever. Magics and faeries and pixie dust sorts of things just don't seem very likely and for as long as humans have been looking for ghosts, we've never once been able to capture actual data on their existence. Things we ascribe to mysticism likely have roots in a physical phenomenon, not the dead coming back for whatever reason. But people can convince themselves of a wide array of things, and once we've made the decision that it must be X, then it's really hard to shake that notion.

So have at it then, sorry that ghosts chased you out of your house.
 
A friend of mine related this story: He was on Mount Shasta when he found a man who had been killed in an avalanche. Rocks, snow, and debris were still rolling periodically down the mountain. He wanted to go make sure the guy was beyond help, but going to him involved entering the avalanche area.

My friend was dressed in mountaineering gear, heavy boots, warm clothes, etc., which was appropriate for the conditions on the mountain.

A woman and child came to him. They were dressed in tennis shoes and ordinary street clothes. They told him to stay away, there was nothing he could do anyway, and he stood a good chance of getting killed himself.

He went down the mountain. He never saw the woman and child again.

This is a rational person, not a believer in ghost stories, not a person given to fantasies.

There are many possible explanations for this little story. Pick your favorite.
 
Northern Light said:
Really? There are explanations for objects moving on their own in homes? Not just a tiny bit, but a lot. Or people seeing apparitions of people they don't even know?

I'd love to hear your explanation for why, at 5 years old, the blankets on my bed were being pulled off of me in the middle of the night? Or why doors would fling open or slam without any source of wind or someone doing it? Or my whole family hearing people walking up and down the stairs at night, or in the hallways, even though everyone was in bed?

I must be making it up, right?

I'm a friend to science but it can't explain everything. There is a lot in the universe we don't know. And I disagree with your assertion that if it's happening, science should be able to detect it. If we don't have a ghost-o-meter then how should we go about doing that, scientifically?

From what little I've read on paranormal science, the only devices that can sometimes detect ghosts are EMF readers, but they don't exactly fall on the standard spectrum... which means they're on a spectrum beyond what the meters can detect or they are some kind other energy we don't yet understand.
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I had a friend who claimed to live in a haunted house like that. She and her sister were habitual liars and I did not believe a word of it until I started spending the night and one day used a ouija board in her house. Holy moly, I have never been so freaked out! Like you said there's just some things happen you cannot explain. Then when I moved into the house I live in now, there's been more than a few instances that have made me wonder. It's calmed down alot but still every now and then something happens that makes me wonder.
 
Ikari said:
OK, whatever. Magics and faeries and pixie dust sorts of things just don't seem very likely and for as long as humans have been looking for ghosts, we've never once been able to capture actual data on their existence. Things we ascribe to mysticism likely have roots in a physical phenomenon, not the dead coming back for whatever reason. But people can convince themselves of a wide array of things, and once we've made the decision that it must be X, then it's really hard to shake that notion.

So have at it then, sorry that ghosts chased you out of your house.
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Like I said I am open to a different explanation, if one is offered. But it's hard to accomplish that because 1) anyone who wasn't there is already once removed from direct observation; 2) if I don't feel an explanation is adequate then the "facts" will shift toward me having some sort of strong denial, or being a liar; 3) it's already assumed from the get-go that it can't possibly be a ghost so that makes honest deduction difficult.

It's hard for people like you to accept that I have already applied occam's razor to the situation because there is a bias toward trusting your own mind over mine, and a bias toward the non-existence of anything supernatural.
 
We used to live in an old military base house, and my parents got some good stories about stuff like hearing far off "big band type" music, even though it wasn't coming from outside. This was about 6 years ago, so it didn't come from an alarm or something or the sort. It was definitely strange, though not absolute proof. In the same house when my mom was sitting at home, she heard army boots coming in from the kitchen and thought "Oh, ____ is home!" She waited and waited, but no one came, and when she checked there was no one there. My dad hadn't been near the house. Of course, there are other plausible theories, but after a while of just small hints of weirdness, it does raise the possibility.

I think unless you have some horror movie like stuff happen to you or to a very credible source, believing definitively yes or no is taking too far a jump to conclusions. Besides, the idea that ghosts are spirits is only speculation. We kind of liked to think that it was an imprint from the past or some very speculative theory not meant to be proven, but just to ponder.

I find it's a bit like religion. It's difficult to believe in it without experiencing it yourself, and even then there isn't much to go on for definitive proof. That's where the faith comes from, for both the Religious and Atheistic.
 
Northern Light said:
I grew up in a haunted house, it's no joke. And my family was hardcore Catholic... you know, the kind that likes to deny that paranormal stuff exists. Well, we didn't have that luxury. We ended up moving. Nothing violent happened, just stuff that was creepy as hell on a regular basis. It was hell when I was a kid because the ghost liked to mess with me the most. So I slept in my older sister's room half the time.

Please provide specific examples of the hauntings. This is interesting. Ever heard of a place called Hinton Ampner?
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