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Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

The answer to that is that you will be eternally be burned in eternal hell.

No other way about that.

Enjoy your Presbyterianism! :)

I prefer the V.3 of hell where we simply live an eternity in the absence of god. Already have a lifetimes practice at that so no big problem there.
 
I prefer the V.3 of hell where we simply live an eternity in the absence of god. Already have a lifetimes practice at that so no big problem there.

I prefer the Jewish tradition. There is no hell.
 
I prefer the Jewish tradition. There is no hell.

All the really interesting people have gone to hell if you listen some of these christians. At least i can get an interesting conversation while burning for an eternity.
 
COuld and does are two different things. I personally don't believe in foreknowledge.

Fortunately I am an agnostic, so I don't know. Maimonides' premise was "if" God knows. If God created the universe, time is part of the universe and God must know what he created in time. Ultimately, everything must be determined, both theologically and in science. The only way God could destroy determinism would be to negate all the laws of the universe and return it to the darkness and chaos from which it came, undo all his work of creation. All of it, no atoms, no stars, no earth, no time, no space. It is impossible to imagine such a condition.
 
All the really interesting people have gone to hell if you listen some of these christians. At least i can get an interesting conversation while burning for an eternity.

Reminds me of a little Irish verse.

"Oh,George Bernard Shaw is a name we know well.
He wrote Major Barbara and Don Juan in Hell,
But to England he went, My Fair Lady to sell,
So its not bloody likely in heaven he'll dwell."
 
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I prefer the V.3 of hell where we simply live an eternity in the absence of god. Already have a lifetimes practice at that so no big problem there.

The Seven Great Archons have consented to release the demon Belial upon you.
 
God's Foreknowledge And His Predestination Of Events Do Not Void Free Will:


The crucifixion of the Lord Jesus was the most evil/sinful act in history. And it
was foreknown and foreordained:


Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel
in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did
what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
Acts 4:27-28

This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge;
and you, with the help of wicked men,put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Acts 2: 23

Note the following points from those verses up there:

♦ The wicked men who killed the Lord Jesus did exactly what God "decided beforehand" that
they would do.

♦ The Lord Jesus was handed over to these wicked men by "God's deliberate plan."

♦ The men who murdered the Lord Jesus are correctly described as "wicked men."

♦ We know from other Scripture verses that God will hold them accountable for
doing precisely what He had predestined them to do.

♦ How can God do that? Because these men chose to do their murder using their
Free Will. There was no outside-of-them power that was FORCING them to choose
to murder the Lord Jesus.


"The things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that
His Christ should suffer, He thus fulfilled,"
Acts 3:18​

♦ The Sovereign God fulfilled His Plan, that "His Christ should suffer" and the wicked
men who carried out His Plan, did so in total freedom of will.

♦ And God declared them to be "wicked men" and we know from other Bible verses
they will be held accountable for their choice to murder the Lord Jesus.



"For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers because they knew Him not, nor
the voice of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them in condemning
Him. And though they found no cause of death in Him, yet they asked Pilate
that He should be slain.
And when they had fulfilled all things that were written
of Him, they took Him down from the tree, and laid Him in a tomb," Acts 13:27-29.

♦ They were guilty men, the men who in total Free Will chose to do exactly what God's
Plan had predicted they would do.

There were other events that were a part of God's Plan relating to the crucifixion of the
Lord Jesus and wicked men fulfilled these specific items that God predicted hundreds
of years before they were born, that they would sinfully choose to do.

I will list some of them in the next post.
 
`

And not only the crucifixion itself was foreordained by the Plan of God,
but many of the surrounding events were also predicted hundreds of
years BEFORE the wicked men carried out God's Plan:



♦ the parting of Christ's garments and the casting of lots for His vesture
(Ps. 22:18; John 19:24)

♦ the giving of gall and vinegar to drink (Ps. 69:21; Matt. 27:34; John 19:29)

♦ the mockery on the part of the people (Ps. 22:6-8; Matt. 27:39);

♦ the fact that they associated Him with thieves (Is. 53:12; Matt. 27:38)

♦ that none of His bones were to be broken (Ps. 34:20; John 19:36)

♦ the spear thrust (Zech. 12:10; John 19:34-37)


Sayeth Dr. Lorraine Boettner:

"Listen to the babble of hell around the cross, and tell us if those men were
not free!


Yet read all the forecast and prophecy and record of the tragedy and tell us if every
incident of it was not ordained of God!

Furthermore, these events could not have been predicted in detail by the
Old Testament prophets centuries before they came to pass unless they
had been absolutely certain in the foreordained plan of God.


Yet while foreordained, they were carried out by agents who were ignorant of who
Christ really was, and who were also ignorant of the fact that they were fulfilling
the divine decrees, Acts 13:27, 29; 3:17.

Hence if we swallow the camel in believing that the most sinful event in all history
was in the foreordained plan of God, and that it was overruled for the redemption
of the world . . .

. . . shall we strain at the gnat in refusing to believe that the smaller events of our
daily lives are also in that plan, and that they are designed for good purposes?"
__Dr. Loraine Boettner

Dr. Boettner's quote can be found HERE
 
`

And not only the crucifixion itself was foreordained by the Plan of God,
but many of the surrounding events were also predicted hundreds of
years BEFORE the wicked men carried out God's Plan:



♦ the parting of Christ's garments and the casting of lots for His vesture
(Ps. 22:18; John 19:24)

♦ the giving of gall and vinegar to drink (Ps. 69:21; Matt. 27:34; John 19:29)

♦ the mockery on the part of the people (Ps. 22:6-8; Matt. 27:39);

♦ the fact that they associated Him with thieves (Is. 53:12; Matt. 27:38)

♦ that none of His bones were to be broken (Ps. 34:20; John 19:36)

♦ the spear thrust (Zech. 12:10; John 19:34-37)


Sayeth Dr. Lorraine Boettner:

"Listen to the babble of hell around the cross, and tell us if those men were
not free!


Yet read all the forecast and prophecy and record of the tragedy and tell us if every
incident of it was not ordained of God!

Furthermore, these events could not have been predicted in detail by the
Old Testament prophets centuries before they came to pass unless they
had been absolutely certain in the foreordained plan of God.


Yet while foreordained, they were carried out by agents who were ignorant of who
Christ really was, and who were also ignorant of the fact that they were fulfilling
the divine decrees, Acts 13:27, 29; 3:17.

Hence if we swallow the camel in believing that the most sinful event in all history
was in the foreordained plan of God, and that it was overruled for the redemption
of the world . . .

. . . shall we strain at the gnat in refusing to believe that the smaller events of our
daily lives are also in that plan, and that they are designed for good purposes?"
__Dr. Loraine Boettner

Dr. Boettner's quote can be found HERE

First of all, the 'events' were not predicted in detail by the Jewish scriptures. ALl the prophecies are mistranslations, taken out of context, or written to, rather than taken from.

Next, none of Dr Boettner's opinions address the issues with compatabilism that are brought forth by the incompatablists.

Incompatibilism is the view that a deterministic universe is completely at odds with the notion that persons have a free will; that there is a dichotomy between determinism and free will where philosophers must choose one or the other. This view is pursued in at least three ways: libertarians deny that the universe is deterministic, the hard determinists deny that any free will exists, and pessimistic incompatibilists (hard indeterminists) deny both that the universe is determined and that free will exists. Some of these incompatibilistic views have more trouble than the others in dealing with the standard argument against free will.

Appealing to 'prophecy' is a rather poor claim too. A lot of those claims for prophecy is not prophecy at all (psalm 22 in particular), but rather was used as a literary device to make things seem 'mysterious'. The NT authors like to misuse Jewish scriptures by mistransation and using them out of context was quite common.

For example, let's look at the artscroll translation of Zech 12:10

Zechariah - Chapter 12 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

10And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.

Nothing about spears there, but swords, yes. That is mistranslation, and out of context as it's worse.


Next, even if the 'prophecies' were accurate, and actual prophecies, that does nothing to address 'perfect' foreknowledge. and determinism.
 
ALL the prophecies are mistranslations, taken out of context

♦ Your comments have been noted.

♦ We have for a long-time been here: You post what you want to post and
I post what I want to post. That means long ago we left the point of serious
and meaningful discussion.

♦ I seriously doubt we would agree on the color of a red apple. But that's not
a problem. This is the Internet and that's to be expected on the Internet.

♦ May the Force be with you, etc.
 
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How would YOU improve on what God has done?


I'd sell my soul to the devil to get rid of things like pestilence, famine, etc...

Unfortunately the devil has not showed up.
 
I'd sell my soul to the devil to get rid of things like pestilence, famine, etc...

Unfortunately the devil has not showed up.

Don't you think there is a good reason for those things? What would you do about overoopulation?

How much do you think your soul is worth? Evangelicals are a dime a dozen. Now if you were a Roman Catholic, I might invest a little on speculation.
 
I'd sell my soul to the devil to get rid of things like pestilence, famine, etc...

Unfortunately the devil has not showed up.

So, you have a soul. Then an atheist you cannot be, LOL. Winston is coming around!
 
This may sound like an odd question, but I am a Presbyterian. I don't believe in being "saved. So I am wondering if someone can explain that to me and the theology behind it.

I am totally guessing here, but I think when they say "saved" they mean from the rapture. The rapture being the day Jesus comes down from Heaven to judge the living & the dead. The only way to heaven is the father almighty (God) thru Jesus (the son).
 
I am totally guessing here, but I think when they say "saved" they mean from the rapture. The rapture being the day Jesus comes down from Heaven to judge the living & the dead. The only way to heaven is the father almighty (God) thru Jesus (the son).

Nice try, but the rapture is actually something that those Christians who believe in it hope to be a part of. The rapture is a fairly new doctrine, popular within evangelicalism, that teaches that God will take all believers out of the Earth prior to certain calamitous events occurring. The idea is that those who were raptured won't have to experience those calamities which preceed the return of Jesus Christ. Presumably, those who were raptured will then return with Jesus and be judged alongside all those who weren't raptured.
 
Nice try, but the rapture is actually something that those Christians who believe in it hope to be a part of. The rapture is a fairly new doctrine, popular within evangelicalism, that teaches that God will take all believers out of the Earth prior to certain calamitous events occurring. The idea is that those who were raptured won't have to experience those calamities which preceed the return of Jesus Christ. Presumably, those who were raptured will then return with Jesus and be judged alongside all those who weren't raptured.

That is a big debate to my understanding with some Christians thinking that they will be removed from the horrors that will be put on Earth during revelations while others think that they will remain until Jesus comes to judge the living and the dead.

Many people twist the words of scriptures, for example Jesus John 3:1-21 does Jesus mean baptism or is he refereeing to reincarnation?

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
 
"He replied, 'Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.'" (Matthew 13:11-12)

If you truly love God, you must love yourself too.

If you truly love God, and have any doubts of his existence it is better to pray for guidance than to commit blasphemy.

Faith is hard, yet it is easy to deny God's existence (but your soul shall pay the price).

I pray that anyone whom thinks that they are too smart to believe in God, prays for humility instead.
 
That is a big debate to my understanding with some Christians thinking that they will be removed from the horrors that will be put on Earth during revelations while others think that they will remain until Jesus comes to judge the living and the dead.

Right. Some Christians believe in the rapture, most don't. But those who do are hoping to be a part of it, they are not hoping to be saved from it. Furthermore, they are expecting to be judged upon Jesus' return along with everyone else; they are not expecting the rapture to replace final judgment.
 
...Being saved just means that you have accepted Jesus as your personal savior and that is the only way to heaven.

Would that mean that anyone that has not accepted Jesus as their personal savior will rot in Christian Hell forever?
 
Would that mean that anyone that has not accepted Jesus as their personal savior will rot in Christian Hell forever?

Not sure what that is exactly. Not every denomination believes in a hell nor is belief in a hell a fundamental tenant of Christianity
 
Not sure what that is exactly. Not every denomination believes in a hell nor is belief in a hell a fundamental tenant of Christianity

Which means Christianity is a subjective set of beliefs, and has nothing to do with reality.

Thank you for confirming it.
 
Which means Christianity is a subjective set of beliefs, and has nothing to do with reality.

Thank you for confirming it.

Christian faith and other faiths are a reality for millions and millions of people. Your pretending that they aren't is your own fantasy.
 
Christian faith and other faiths are a reality for millions and millions of people. Your pretending that they aren't is your own fantasy.

People are ignorant and not a way to base any way to determine if a claim is true or false. If you are not ignorant, then provide proof of your claim. Otherwise yoru claim is false by definition.
 
People are ignorant and not a way to base any way to determine if a claim is true or false. If you are not ignorant, then provide proof of your claim. Otherwise yoru claim is false by definition.

"Worldwide, more than eight-in-ten people identify with a religious group. A comprehensive demographic study of more than 230 countries and territories conducted by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life estimates that there are 5.8 billion religiously affiliated adults and children around the globe, representing 84% of the 2010 world population of 6.9 billion." The Global Religious Landscape | Pew Research Center
 
"Worldwide, more than eight-in-ten people identify with a religious group. A comprehensive demographic study of more than 230 countries and territories conducted by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life estimates that there are 5.8 billion religiously affiliated adults and children around the globe, representing 84% of the 2010 world population of 6.9 billion." The Global Religious Landscape | Pew Research Center

Lol... more proof that most people are ignorant, and what they say should be ignored when trying to determine reality.

Humans are irrelevant to the universe! Cosmological Reality principle NO 1! :)
 
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