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Thread: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

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    Re: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    I prefer the V.3 of hell where we simply live an eternity in the absence of god. Already have a lifetimes practice at that so no big problem there.
    The Seven Great Archons have consented to release the demon Belial upon you.

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    Re: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

    God's Foreknowledge And His Predestination Of Events Do Not Void Free Will:


    The crucifixion of the Lord Jesus was the most evil/sinful act in history. And it
    was foreknown and foreordained:


    Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel
    in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did
    what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
    Acts 4:27-28

    This man was handed over to you by Godís deliberate plan and foreknowledge;
    and you, with the help of wicked men,put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

    Acts 2: 23
    Note the following points from those verses up there:

    ♦ The wicked men who killed the Lord Jesus did exactly what God "decided beforehand" that
    they would do.

    ♦ The Lord Jesus was handed over to these wicked men by "God's deliberate plan."

    ♦ The men who murdered the Lord Jesus are correctly described as "wicked men."

    ♦ We know from other Scripture verses that God will hold them accountable for
    doing precisely what He had predestined them to do.

    ♦ How can God do that? Because these men chose to do their murder using their
    Free Will. There was no outside-of-them power that was FORCING them to choose
    to murder the Lord Jesus.


    "The things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that
    His Christ should suffer, He thus fulfilled,"
    Acts 3:18
    ♦ The Sovereign God fulfilled His Plan, that "His Christ should suffer" and the wicked
    men who carried out His Plan, did so in total freedom of will.

    ♦ And God declared them to be "wicked men" and we know from other Bible verses
    they will be held accountable for their choice to murder the Lord Jesus.



    "For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers because they knew Him not, nor
    the voice of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them in condemning
    Him. And though they found no cause of death in Him, yet they asked Pilate
    that He should be slain.
    And when they had fulfilled all things that were written
    of Him, they took Him down from the tree, and laid Him in a tomb," Acts 13:27-29.
    ♦ They were guilty men, the men who in total Free Will chose to do exactly what God's
    Plan had predicted they would do.

    There were other events that were a part of God's Plan relating to the crucifixion of the
    Lord Jesus and wicked men fulfilled these specific items that God predicted hundreds
    of years before they were born, that they would sinfully choose to do.

    I will list some of them in the next post.

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    Re: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

    `

    And not only the crucifixion itself was foreordained by the Plan of God,
    but many of the surrounding events were also predicted hundreds of
    years BEFORE the wicked men carried out God's Plan:



    ♦ the parting of Christ's garments and the casting of lots for His vesture
    (Ps. 22:18; John 19:24)

    ♦ the giving of gall and vinegar to drink (Ps. 69:21; Matt. 27:34; John 19:29)

    ♦ the mockery on the part of the people (Ps. 22:6-8; Matt. 27:39);

    ♦ the fact that they associated Him with thieves (Is. 53:12; Matt. 27:38)

    ♦ that none of His bones were to be broken (Ps. 34:20; John 19:36)

    ♦ the spear thrust (Zech. 12:10; John 19:34-37)


    Sayeth Dr. Lorraine Boettner:

    "Listen to the babble of hell around the cross, and tell us if those men were
    not free!


    Yet read all the forecast and prophecy and record of the tragedy and tell us if every
    incident of it was not ordained of God!

    Furthermore, these events could not have been predicted in detail by the
    Old Testament prophets centuries before they came to pass unless they
    had been absolutely certain in the foreordained plan of God.


    Yet while foreordained, they were carried out by agents who were ignorant of who
    Christ really was, and who were also ignorant of the fact that they were fulfilling
    the divine decrees, Acts 13:27, 29; 3:17.

    Hence if we swallow the camel in believing that the most sinful event in all history
    was in the foreordained plan of God, and that it was overruled for the redemption
    of the world . . .

    . . . shall we strain at the gnat in refusing to believe that the smaller events of our
    daily lives are also in that plan, and that they are designed for good purposes?"
    __Dr. Loraine Boettner

    Dr. Boettner's quote can be found HERE

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    Re: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    `

    And not only the crucifixion itself was foreordained by the Plan of God,
    but many of the surrounding events were also predicted hundreds of
    years BEFORE the wicked men carried out God's Plan:



    ♦ the parting of Christ's garments and the casting of lots for His vesture
    (Ps. 22:18; John 19:24)

    ♦ the giving of gall and vinegar to drink (Ps. 69:21; Matt. 27:34; John 19:29)

    ♦ the mockery on the part of the people (Ps. 22:6-8; Matt. 27:39);

    ♦ the fact that they associated Him with thieves (Is. 53:12; Matt. 27:38)

    ♦ that none of His bones were to be broken (Ps. 34:20; John 19:36)

    ♦ the spear thrust (Zech. 12:10; John 19:34-37)


    Sayeth Dr. Lorraine Boettner:

    "Listen to the babble of hell around the cross, and tell us if those men were
    not free!


    Yet read all the forecast and prophecy and record of the tragedy and tell us if every
    incident of it was not ordained of God!

    Furthermore, these events could not have been predicted in detail by the
    Old Testament prophets centuries before they came to pass unless they
    had been absolutely certain in the foreordained plan of God.


    Yet while foreordained, they were carried out by agents who were ignorant of who
    Christ really was, and who were also ignorant of the fact that they were fulfilling
    the divine decrees, Acts 13:27, 29; 3:17.

    Hence if we swallow the camel in believing that the most sinful event in all history
    was in the foreordained plan of God, and that it was overruled for the redemption
    of the world . . .

    . . . shall we strain at the gnat in refusing to believe that the smaller events of our
    daily lives are also in that plan, and that they are designed for good purposes?"
    __Dr. Loraine Boettner

    Dr. Boettner's quote can be found HERE
    First of all, the 'events' were not predicted in detail by the Jewish scriptures. ALl the prophecies are mistranslations, taken out of context, or written to, rather than taken from.

    Next, none of Dr Boettner's opinions address the issues with compatabilism that are brought forth by the incompatablists.


    Incompatibilism is the view that a deterministic universe is completely at odds with the notion that persons have a free will; that there is a dichotomy between determinism and free will where philosophers must choose one or the other. This view is pursued in at least three ways: libertarians deny that the universe is deterministic, the hard determinists deny that any free will exists, and pessimistic incompatibilists (hard indeterminists) deny both that the universe is determined and that free will exists. Some of these incompatibilistic views have more trouble than the others in dealing with the standard argument against free will.
    Appealing to 'prophecy' is a rather poor claim too. A lot of those claims for prophecy is not prophecy at all (psalm 22 in particular), but rather was used as a literary device to make things seem 'mysterious'. The NT authors like to misuse Jewish scriptures by mistransation and using them out of context was quite common.

    For example, let's look at the artscroll translation of Zech 12:10

    Zechariah - Chapter 12 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

    10And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.
    Nothing about spears there, but swords, yes. That is mistranslation, and out of context as it's worse.


    Next, even if the 'prophecies' were accurate, and actual prophecies, that does nothing to address 'perfect' foreknowledge. and determinism.
    Knee-jerk anti-government sentiment is not a viable political philosophy.

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    Re: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    ALL the prophecies are mistranslations, taken out of context
    ♦ Your comments have been noted.

    ♦ We have for a long-time been here: You post what you want to post and
    I post what I want to post. That means long ago we left the point of serious
    and meaningful discussion.

    ♦ I seriously doubt we would agree on the color of a red apple. But that's not
    a problem. This is the Internet and that's to be expected on the Internet.

    ♦ May the Force be with you, etc.
    Last edited by JAG; 03-02-17 at 07:07 PM.

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    Re: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    How would YOU improve on what God has done?

    I'd sell my soul to the devil to get rid of things like pestilence, famine, etc...

    Unfortunately the devil has not showed up.

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    Re: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I'd sell my soul to the devil to get rid of things like pestilence, famine, etc...

    Unfortunately the devil has not showed up.
    Don't you think there is a good reason for those things? What would you do about overoopulation?

    How much do you think your soul is worth? Evangelicals are a dime a dozen. Now if you were a Roman Catholic, I might invest a little on speculation.

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    Re: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I'd sell my soul to the devil to get rid of things like pestilence, famine, etc...

    Unfortunately the devil has not showed up.
    So, you have a soul. Then an atheist you cannot be, LOL. Winston is coming around!
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack50 View Post
    This may sound like an odd question, but I am a Presbyterian. I don't believe in being "saved. So I am wondering if someone can explain that to me and the theology behind it.
    I am totally guessing here, but I think when they say "saved" they mean from the rapture. The rapture being the day Jesus comes down from Heaven to judge the living & the dead. The only way to heaven is the father almighty (God) thru Jesus (the son).

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    Re: Can Someone Explain Being "Saved?"

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeThink View Post
    I am totally guessing here, but I think when they say "saved" they mean from the rapture. The rapture being the day Jesus comes down from Heaven to judge the living & the dead. The only way to heaven is the father almighty (God) thru Jesus (the son).
    Nice try, but the rapture is actually something that those Christians who believe in it hope to be a part of. The rapture is a fairly new doctrine, popular within evangelicalism, that teaches that God will take all believers out of the Earth prior to certain calamitous events occurring. The idea is that those who were raptured won't have to experience those calamities which preceed the return of Jesus Christ. Presumably, those who were raptured will then return with Jesus and be judged alongside all those who weren't raptured.

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