If God Is All-Forgiving, When Will He Forgive Satan?

KevinKohler said:

God only forgives those who ask, who acknowledge wrong.

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what can you do to hurt a god that would need forgiveness?

When he asks..............

Brewdog said:

Satan and hell as they are taught now were both invented in the Middle Ages.

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Hell as a place of fire and/or eternal punishment/suffering is written about by: Clement, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, among others, in the 2nd century. Hippolytus, Ignatius, and Cyprian all write about it in the third century. By the late fourth to early 5th century, St. Augustine had weighed in on it in "The City of God". All of those sources are from prior to the middle ages, and all of those authors are considered among the most important theologians of their time. With the exception of Augustine, those are all sources from before the church had any power, indeed except for Augustine and Tertullian all of them suffered martyrdom, meaning that they lived during a period of time when the church had no power and was instead under intense persecution.

I got tired of looking them all up, but here's some of the quotes from the previously mentioned church fathers in the second century:

Clement of Rome said:

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God...(Second Clement , 17:7)

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Justin Martyr said:

...when some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief, and in immortality." (The Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. XLV)

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Iraneaeus of Lyons said:

[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1)

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Tertullian said:

After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3)

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As you can see, belief in hell as a place of eternal punishment goes back to at least the second century, not to the middle ages; this is a fact.

Furthermore, your claim that it was invented in order to gain more control over people is very difficult to support given the facts of its early development. The people who developed the doctrine of hell lived during a time when Christianity was marginalized and Christians faced intense persecution and martyrdom. To believe your theory, we would have to believe that they correctly guessed that several centuries later, Christianity would be the dominant religion and at that point it would be useful to have a hell in order to better control people. That's a bit hard to believe.

You'd have better luck trying to argue that hell was invented in order to comfort the persecuted by assuring them that those who are persecuting them will one day suffer for what they have done. That would at least be more believable.

CrabCake said:

I would hope they aren't since that is not the Catholic position on this issue. The Catholic position is that God delegated authority over whether to forgive or not forgive to the church.

Probably true. But Osteen isn't exactly known for his strong theology.


Perhaps, but how would we know? She's not a pastor and doesn't generally speak on these kinds of topics. Do you have some evidence?



No, he doesn't. This one is provably false. Here you go:
Creflo Dollar Ministries - Study Notes

Section E-3 details Creflo's view on unpardonable sin and details why Satan would never be forgiven (he was already handed over to a reprobate mind long ago). This is fairly standard Calvinist theology which you will find in most Baptist, Presbyterian, and other reformed churches.
man
As far as I know, there isn't any doctrine of any major Christian denomination that refers to God as "all-forgiving". There certainly isn't any church creed that refers to him in that way. The closest you can find is references to God as being "merciful". Much discussion through the centuries has focused on how God can be both merciful and just. Mercy demands that you forgive, but justice demands that the guilty be punished; God is described as both merciful and just, thus this dichotomy has been the subject of much theological debate. No theologian of note has ever decided to simply pretend the bible doesn't say he is just and call him "all-forgiving".

You wouldn't want an all-forgiving God. Such a God would allow the guy who raped your child or murdered your spouse to get away with it without any repercussions. That's not what the bible (nor any church I know of) teaches. The bible teaches that God is returning to bring justice.

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So anyway I went to church three times a week as a kid until around the age of 18 and that's definitely taught and believed by many. This wasn't a serious post anyway so don't take it too seriously.

Gaugingcatenate said:

That being the case I would have to say in my perspective it is a false premise and respectfully decline an opinion.

But I will say while Clapton is not God, to me, he is pretty damned good. Apropos, I really enjoyed his Tears in Heaven.

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True. Clapton even said Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Rey Vaughn were better, but they never had Clapton's tone! Did you ever hear him cover Bob Dylan's Don't Think Twice It's Alright? It's that tone that's so good!
Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xitMOIKM1bQ

Clapton is God said:

So anyway I went to church three times a week as a kid until around the age of 18 and that's definitely taught and believed by many. This wasn't a serious post anyway so don't take it too seriously.

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You went to church as a child and stopped in adulthood. Is it any surprise you have a child-like understanding of the faith?

"Believed by many" is just weasel words. You have no evidence whatsoever. All you have is some vague notion based on things you remember hearing as a child.

My understanding of Satan from the original Koine is that it's a force of temptation within us that is there to lure us, through our free will, away from God. It's not an actual person.

If you want to transform your darkness you have to know it and own it, otherwise you don't really know what you're asking forgiveness for.

Furthermore, God has already forgiven us before we have to ask. The challenge is self-forgiveness. Jesus died so that we could have more leeway to give ourselves a chance, to make mistakes but ultimately learn to use our free will for good.

In other words I don't think it's God that we need to ask for forgiveness. He knows us better than we know ourselves. The challenge is to forgive ourselves and each other.

Brewdog said:

Satan and hell as they are taught now were both invented in the Middle Ages. There's no reason for an eternal hell. If God loves us unconditionally, like He says, then how can he send us to eternal damnation? One lifetime of sin equals an eternity of agony? Those are not the actions of a just God. If God loves you UNCONDITIONALLY, that means without condition. He says he will never abandon or forsake us, but yet he will abandon or forsake us in hell? The guy is either a liar or an alcoholic.

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Hell has been around longer than that. Christi mentions it in the bible as well as the gospel of John.
Actually they are the actions of a just God. God will not allow sin to continue. Sin and death will be punished.
That punishment is permanent separation from God and the people that believe in his Son. If he was not loving He never would have provided a way out.

The church made up Satan and Hell because, in the church's incessant quest for power, they didn't like the way people were acting. So paradise after death wasn't enough. They had to convince people that eternal agony was the consequence for not behaving properly.

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Actually no hell wasn't created by the church it very much is biblical and comes from Christ and other books as well.
It has nothing to do with behaving properly.

I challenge you to find me scripture that says any of us are going to eternal damnation or a pit of fire. And I know which line from Revelation you will Google, and you'll be wrong, because you won't read it properly. And then I will destroy your feeble argument. Go for it.

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Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).

The Bible speaks of hell as a place of absolute loneliness and despair and hopelessness. It calls it a place of “darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:13).


Rev. 20:13, "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."
Rev. 20:14, "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Northern Light said:

My understanding of Satan from the original Koine is that it's a force of temptation within us that is there to lure us, through our free will, away from God. It's not an actual person.

If you want to transform your darkness you have to know it and own it, otherwise you don't really know what you're asking forgiveness for.

Furthermore, God has already forgiven us before we have to ask. The challenge is self-forgiveness. Jesus died so that we could have more leeway to give ourselves a chance, to make mistakes but ultimately learn to use our free will for good.

In other words I don't think it's God that we need to ask for forgiveness. He knows us better than we know ourselves. The challenge is to forgive ourselves and each other.

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No no where is his found in the bible. In fact Christ himself even says no ones comes to the father but through me.

He also says there will be many in that day say Lord, Lord we did all these things in your name and cast out demons and healed the sick. I will say to them get thee hence you workers of iniquity for I never knew you.

CrabCake said:

I would hope they aren't since that is not the Catholic position on this issue. The Catholic position is that God delegated authority over whether to forgive or not forgive to the church.

Probably true. But Osteen isn't exactly known for his strong theology.


Perhaps, but how would we know? She's not a pastor and doesn't generally speak on these kinds of topics. Do you have some evidence?



No, he doesn't. This one is provably false. Here you go:
Creflo Dollar Ministries - Study Notes

Section E-3 details Creflo's view on unpardonable sin and details why Satan would never be forgiven (he was already handed over to a reprobate mind long ago). This is fairly standard Calvinist theology which you will find in most Baptist, Presbyterian, and other reformed churches.

As far as I know, there isn't any doctrine of any major Christian denomination that refers to God as "all-forgiving". There certainly isn't any church creed that refers to him in that way. The closest you can find is references to God as being "merciful". Much discussion through the centuries has focused on how God can be both merciful and just. Mercy demands that you forgive, but justice demands that the guilty be punished; God is described as both merciful and just, thus this dichotomy has been the subject of much theological debate. No theologian of note has ever decided to simply pretend the bible doesn't say he is just and call him "all-forgiving".

You wouldn't want an all-forgiving God. Such a God would allow the guy who raped your child or murdered your spouse to get away with it without any repercussions. That's not what the bible (nor any church I know of) teaches. The bible teaches that God is returning to bring justice.

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For he is willing to cast you sins as far as the east is from the west.
Yes God is all forgiving for those that ask and call on the name of His Sons's name.

Remember the criminal on the cross? He had done wrong his entire life was a their a murderer and probably
Some other things as well. Yet what did Christ tell him?

Today you will be with me in paradise.

Brewdog said:

If God is benevolent and only good, then why can't he forgive the children born with deformities and cancer? What did those little kids ever do to deserve that evil? Are you going to blame cancer on the devil?

Christians like to blame every ill on a "broken world" that humans created. God gives us free will, so people will do unspeakable things to one another, right? But free will doesn't explain cancer or tsunamis or hurricanes or earthquakes.

If your God loves us all so unconditionally, then why does he plague us with such evil? Can God be evil? Christians say no. But if a god tells us he loves us unconditionally, and yet he lets us suffer without using his powers to stop the pain, then he's evil. He's a mean God without any morals. He lets tiny children suffer unmercifully. And I'm supposed to bow down to that sort of disgusting vileness? I shall not.

We always hear that the devil is true evil. But satan was God's closest angel. And if God knows everything, then how does he let his closest friend trick him? Perhaps we just don't have the full story. We have the bible, but we haven't read Satan's side of things. Maybe God is just a huge asshole that likes to see us suffer and gets a huge b0ner from our misery. And maybe Satan just never had a good publicist like God did. Maybe satan is the one that really loves us but he just didn't write a book explaining his side. Satan used to be an angel, right?

If god is truly omnipotent and omniscient, then why would he intentionally create a place where he knew he would make his children suffer unbearable pain? Is he a sadist?

The answers to all my questions are clear. You only have to use your logical mind to figure it out.

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So don't bow down - nobody will care.

Northern Light said:

My understanding of Satan from the original Koine is that it's a force of temptation within us that is there to lure us, through our free will, away from God. It's not an actual person.

If you want to transform your darkness you have to know it and own it, otherwise you don't really know what you're asking forgiveness for.

Furthermore, God has already forgiven us before we have to ask. The challenge is self-forgiveness. Jesus died so that we could have more leeway to give ourselves a chance, to make mistakes but ultimately learn to use our free will for good.

In other words I don't think it's God that we need to ask for forgiveness. He knows us better than we know ourselves. The challenge is to forgive ourselves and each other.

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That is closer to the Jewish conception of what 'Satan' is than what he is understood to be in many (probably most) Christian denominations.

Sherman123 said:

That is closer to the Jewish conception of what 'Satan' is than what he is understood to be in many (probably most) Christian denominations.

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I know, which is why I prefer to go with that. Just like I prefer to go with the original meaning of Hell, and not the hadic version that was invented by Dante's Inferno.

Christian history is a distorted one. Jesus never talked about Satan or Hell he only talked about being on the outside or the inside of God.

ludin said:

No no where is his found in the bible. In fact Christ himself even says no ones comes to the father but through me.

He also says there will be many in that day say Lord, Lord we did all these things in your name and cast out demons and healed the sick. I will say to them get thee hence you workers of iniquity for I never knew you.

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That's what I'm saying. If Jesus didn't say it then I don't care.

blarg said:

what can you do to hurt a god that would need forgiveness?

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Hurt a god?


Sin doesn't harm God, it harms the sinner.

It doesn't harm God, but I do think it breaks His heart.

KevinKohler said:

Hurt a god?


Sin doesn't harm God, it harms the sinner.

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then you dont need gods forgiveness

blarg said:

then you dont need gods forgiveness

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Harming I news elf is an affront to God. You are HIS creation, after all.



Mind you, I'm not religious, I just know the book fairly well. And you're right...you don't NEED gods forgiveness. Hell is an option. God loves you...and without forgiveness, you invite torment upon yourself, not just in hell. Plus, without acknowledging your favorite lures and mistakes, you never grow. You don't aspire to be more than you are. It's like if you programmed an AI, pouring yourself into that project, but upon awareness, the AI chooses not to learn anything new. That would upset you, yes?

And last, he'll is not eternal, eventually all souls good to heaven.




If you believe in that sorta thing.

KevinKohler said:

Harming I news elf is an affront to God. You are HIS creation, after all.



Mind you, I'm not religious, I just know the book fairly well. And you're right...you don't NEED gods forgiveness. Hell is an option. God loves you...and without forgiveness, you invite torment upon yourself, not just in hell. Plus, without acknowledging your favorite lures and mistakes, you never grow. You don't aspire to be more than you are. It's like if you programmed an AI, pouring yourself into that project, but upon awareness, the AI chooses not to learn anything new. That would upset you, yes?

And last, he'll is not eternal, eventually all souls good to heaven.




If you believe in that sorta thing.

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cant say that makes much sense

the answer to some one harming them self should not be to harm them more

how would the god who dosent need to forgive you not forgiving you torment you?

hell dosent make to much sense either unless hell is an ok place wher you just get some space away form god if the 2 of you dont see eye to eye

knowing yourself would be necessary for growth but your own values should determine what counts as growth

dont know why you would make an ai just to parrot yourself or suffer

Northern Light said:

I know, which is why I prefer to go with that. Just like I prefer to go with the original meaning of Hell, and not the hadic version that was invented by Dante's Inferno.

Christian history is a distorted one. Jesus never talked about Satan or Hell he only talked about being on the outside or the inside of God.

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Umm yes he did. He mentioned hells and the devil often.

mike2810 said:

- God may have decided not to be merciful towards Satin. It is God's choice. It is also possible that salvation for fallen angles (like Satin) is not in God's salvation plan.

As far as humans, God gave us free will. Humans make choices that leads to salvation or damnation. Its a human choice.

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So if God already knows what choices we're going to make, how can we possibly have free will? If I could make a choice other than the choice God knew I was going to make then he wouldn't be all knowing. So only if God is not all knowing do we have free will.

jmotivator said:

End thread.

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Yeah?

What kind of needy, spiteful being would create an entire race of thinking people solely for the purpose that they worship it? And then torture them forever for not worshipping it?

We have more compassion for our pets. What does it say about a god who is less compassionate than us?

This doesn't begin to address the fact that this god never bothers to show up just to reassure us that yes, it's here and wants us to do well.

Opopanax said:

So if God already knows what choices we're going to make, how can we possibly have free will? If I could make a choice other than the choice God knew I was going to make then he wouldn't be all knowing. So only if God is not all knowing do we have free will.

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knowing what someone is going to choose doesn't mean they don't have a choice.

If I set two plates one with cookies and one with vegetables and ask kids to choose one.
I know they are going to take the cookies. Does that mean they don't have a choice?

Nope he can be all knowing and still allow free will.

Opopanax said:

Yeah?

What kind of needy, spiteful being would create an entire race of thinking people solely for the purpose that they worship it? And then torture them forever for not worshipping it?

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God punishes sin not the person. Also God doesn't torture anyone.

We have more compassion for our pets. What does it say about a god who is less compassionate than us?

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The bible says the exact opposite.
Would you be willing to give up you son to save a pet?
If not then you don't have more compassion.

This doesn't begin to address the fact that this god never bothers to show up just to reassure us that yes, it's here and wants us to do well.

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He reassures me all the time.

Opopanax said:

Yeah?

What kind of needy, spiteful being would create an entire race of thinking people solely for the purpose that they worship it? And then torture them forever for not worshipping it?

We have more compassion for our pets. What does it say about a god who is less compassionate than us?

This doesn't begin to address the fact that this god never bothers to show up just to reassure us that yes, it's here and wants us to do well.

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When God granted us Free Will he allowed the possibility of sin and corruption. As such, God doesn't "allowed" pain and suffering, pain and suffering are our choice.

In many ways the Eastern Religions have it right: Most of what we see as pain and suffering are simply our perception of events. Most of Jesus' teaching were to change our perception of Earthly suffering. We also see this play out in societies around the world, where those who choose not to accept victimization are far more likely to improve their lot in life than those who choose to suffer.

The world free of suffering is still there for you to choose, you just don't choose it and opt instead to fault God for giving you the choice.