Bible question: Teaching a man to fish...

(Paraphrased) "You can give a man a fish and feed him for a day or you can teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime."

I have always interpreted this to mean that you shouldn't enable a person to be lazy. Not that helping and charity doesn't have its place, it most certainly does, just don't encourage laziness.

I also just learned that this specific saying is not in the Bible, but is a Chinese proverb. (I did not know that.)

Anyway, the question: Is there some other passage in the Bible that conveys the same sentiment as the fish proverb? Something that doesn't discount helping those in need, but at the same time not enabling the lazy?

2 Thessalonians 3:9-11New International Version (NIV)

9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

radcen said:

(Paraphrased) "You can give a man a fish and feed him for a day or you can teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime."

I have always interpreted this to mean that you shouldn't enable a person to be lazy. Not that helping and charity doesn't have its place, it most certainly does, just don't encourage laziness.

I also just learned that this specific saying is not in the Bible, but is a Chinese proverb. (I did not know that.)

Anyway, the question: Is there some other passage in the Bible that conveys the same sentiment as the fish proverb? Something that doesn't discount helping those in need, but at the same time not enabling the lazy?

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Tosca and Vox hit some good ones. Generally speaking, those who spend their time arguing that Christianity demands that we have a public social safety net aren't really interested in the work and character requirements in the New Testament.

cpwill said:

Tosca and Vox hit some good ones. Generally speaking, those who spend their time arguing that Christianity demands that we have a public social safety net aren't really interested in the work and character requirements in the New Testament.

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That's my experience and observations, also. There's a lot of cherry picking when it comes to one side or the other using Bible verses to support their side.

cpwill said:

Tosca and Vox hit some good ones. Generally speaking, those who spend their time arguing that Christianity demands that we have a public social safety net aren't really interested in the work and character requirements in the New Testament.

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Generally speaking, you can find support for almost any position in the Bible. That's why it's so popular. People don't get their beliefs from the Bible, they bring their beliefs to the Bible and find affirmation.

Grand Mal said:

Generally speaking, you can find support for almost any position in the Bible. That's why it's so popular. People don't get their beliefs from the Bible, they bring their beliefs to the Bible and find affirmation.

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I don't disagree with that. The cherry-picking, though, is especially prevalent from the extremes of social issues.

Thank you all. You have been most helpful.

I quoted the guy called Paul (alias Saul).......(His 2nd letter to the Thessalonians) not that I regard him as anything more than just another religious charlatan who made a lot of money off the rubes.

We need to take all these things with a grain of salt. As somebody else said, the Bible can be used to support any argument.

cpwill said:

Tosca and Vox hit some good ones. Generally speaking, those who spend their time arguing that Christianity demands that we have a public social safety net aren't really interested in the work and character requirements in the New Testament.

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Jesus clearly stated that you get to Heaven by acts of Charity. (His story of the Good Samaritan was in response to the question of how you get to Heaven.)

Christianity went in another direction via the creativity of this Saul/Paul character--he invented a whole new and easy way to get to Heaven (which, being easy, became wildly popular and garnered full collection plates for Saul/Paul).

radcen said:

That's my experience and observations, also. There's a lot of cherry picking when it comes to one side or the other using Bible verses to support their side.

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That's all it is.

I am far from a Biblical scholar, but I have had some training. 97% of all comments on the Bible take one or two sentences and then figure this is a "command", that mankind must do this or that.

And that is precisely how NOT to study the Bible. It's 2000 years old. No one spoke or wrote the way w do. Over centuries the genre changed, from poetry to prose to song to story telling. And they used techniques in story telling, some of those techniques involve metaphors....there never was a ****ing whale OK?

The Bible is a record in several large books of Zion's relationship with God, ending with the accounts of Jesus, the single mis-understood prophet/savior in history. So much so, that most of the most 'severe' Christians get him 100% wrong, and pass judgement on others, like gays, LGBT, poor people etc.

"let he who has not sinned toss the first stone" is one sentence that CAN stand alone.

I was once told that to study the Bible, one needs to embrace every concept of the "Lord's Prayer" first...."forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us." is another that could and should stand alone.

radcen said:

(Paraphrased) "You can give a man a fish and feed him for a day or you can teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime."

I have always interpreted this to mean that you shouldn't enable a person to be lazy. Not that helping and charity doesn't have its place, it most certainly does, just don't encourage laziness.

I also just learned that this specific saying is not in the Bible, but is a Chinese proverb. (I did not know that.)

Anyway, the question: Is there some other passage in the Bible that conveys the same sentiment as the fish proverb? Something that doesn't discount helping those in need, but at the same time not enabling the lazy?

Click to expand...

I don't think there is anything as nicely packaged as what you are looking for. The bible speaks of both charity and labor but as far as I can recall, there isn't a passage that neatly addresses both at the same time.

The bible as a whole teaches a great deal about those topics but not in a nice little quotable snippet.

cpwill said:

Generally speaking, those who spend their time arguing that Christianity demands that we have a public social safety net aren't really interested in the work and character requirements in the New Testament.

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I haven't found that to be the case. They just have a different worldview.

You view people who need a social safety net as lazy people lacking in character; if you didn't then you wouldn't have posted what you did here. Your post betrays the assumption that those who need a social safety net are lacking in character and don't want to work. If we all viewed the poor through that lens there probably wouldn't actually be any social justice Christians; no one is interested in enabling such people.

Those who promote Christian social justice ideals view those people as people who have fallen on hard times or are victims of institutional injustice. Thus a Christian (or any person) who supports a social safety net understands that some people need help getting back on their feet or need help leveling the playing field so they can become productive.

That difference in perspective is obviously going to profoundly affect your opinion on social justice programs and what the bible says about them.

Personally, I am baffled that any Christian can read the prophets and not see God's call for social justice and anger at the people of Israel for neglecting it. Then again, maybe they don't read the prophets because it isn't included in their New Testament only bible.

Vox said:

Jesus clearly stated that you get to Heaven by acts of Charity. (His story of the Good Samaritan was in response to the question of how you get to Heaven.)

Christianity went in another direction via the creativity of this Saul/Paul character--he invented a whole new and easy way to get to Heaven (which, being easy, became wildly popular and garnered full collection plates for Saul/Paul).

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Paul agrees with Jesus on Justification by Faith, and on other important subjects. Justification / righteousness in the Bible has always been by faith in God (Genesis 15:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc.).

Paul and Jesus - do they agree?

https://carm.org/questions/other-questions/did-jesus-and-paul-teach-same-thing

Fearandloathing said:

That's all it is.

I am far from a Biblical scholar, but I have had some training. 97% of all comments on the Bible take one or two sentences and then figure this is a "command", that mankind must do this or that.

And that is precisely how NOT to study the Bible. It's 2000 years old. No one spoke or wrote the way w do. Over centuries the genre changed, from poetry to prose to song to story telling. And they used techniques in story telling, some of those techniques involve metaphors....there never was a ****ing whale OK?

The Bible is a record in several large books of Zion's relationship with God, ending with the accounts of Jesus, the single mis-understood prophet/savior in history. So much so, that most of the most 'severe' Christians get him 100% wrong, and pass judgement on others, like gays, LGBT, poor people etc.

"let he who has not sinned toss the first stone" is one sentence that CAN stand alone.

I was once told that to study the Bible, one needs to embrace every concept of the "Lord's Prayer" first...."forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us." is another that could and should stand alone.

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Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you too will perish." - Luke 13:3

And he also said, "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” - John 8:24

And also,

"I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the father except through me." - John 14:6

Most Christians are not confused by those scriptures, but those who seek to discredit Jesus rarely, if ever, quote those.

Vox said:

Jesus clearly stated that you get to Heaven by acts of Charity. (His story of the Good Samaritan was in response to the question of how you get to Heaven.)

Christianity went in another direction via the creativity of this Saul/Paul character--he invented a whole new and easy way to get to Heaven (which, being easy, became wildly popular and garnered full collection plates for Saul/Paul).

Click to expand...

We don't even need to get into theology to see why your statement is wrong. We need only look at history. Early Christianity was not an easy path to follow. Converting to Christianity meant breaking from the traditions of your ancestors, your family, your tribe, your community, etc. It would immediately have turned you into an outcast. We find discussions of this throughout the scriptures, precisely because it is an issue that early Christians had to deal with. It also put you at odds with society at large and put you in the crosshairs of the government. At various times in its early history, Christianity was persecuted, at times by the local community, and at other times by the government itself. Being a Christian meant you may be: stoned to death, crucified, fed to lions, or otherwise executed. Thus it is clear that Christianity was not an easy path.

Let's take a look at some early evidence of what Christianity entailed (at least in the 2nd century). The excerpts that follow are from a letter written by Pliny the Younger (at the time, a Roman governor) to emperor Trajan asking for advice on how to deal with Christians.

Pliny the Younger said:

the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed.

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Pliny the Younger said:

I judged it so much the more necessary to extract the real truth, with the assistance of torture, from two female slaves, who were styled deaconesses

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From those quotes it is clear that being an early Christian meant you could find yourself being executed or tortured by the authorities.

Pliny the Younger said:

they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food

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From this one we can see that early Christians placed a priority on sanctification and did not practice the "easy" kind of belief-only attitude you seem to think they did.

History just doesn't support your claim. Early Christianity was anything but easy. It subjected you to ostracism, persecution, and possible torture and execution. Furthermore, it seemed to promote a change of lifestyle, not just an easy faith only belief. The idea that Pauline Christianity spread like wildfire because it was easy flies in the face of historical evidence.

Paul agrees with Jesus on Justification by Faith, and on other important subjects. Justification / righteousness in the Bible has always been by faith in God.

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Not according to Jesus.

His teaching of getting to heaven by works of charity could not be more clear.

Saul/Paul's complex new religion of "Christianity" was founded on well-known Pagan concepts to fleece the Gentiles. Jesus taught Jewish concepts--faith without works is dead.

S/Paul taught free ride by "Grace." It made him a rich religious charlatan because his free ride was easy.

Jesus and Saul/Paul's teachings were diametrically opposed.

Being a Christian meant you may be: stoned to death, crucified, fed to lions, or otherwise executed. Thus it is clear that Christianity was not an easy path.

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Yet the charlatan Saul/Paul ended up living in his own fine home in Rome, of all places.

Go figure.

Simple test:

Ask yourself if you know anything about Saul/Paul that he himself or his disciples didn't tell you.

Ponder it long and hard.

Personally, I am baffled that any Christian can read the prophets and not see God's call for social justice and anger at the people of Israel for neglecting it. Then again, maybe they don't read the prophets because it isn't included in their New Testament only bible.

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Greed and selfishness blind them to the words of the prophets.

That's why prophets tend to get killed by the people if they get too loud.

Grand Mal said:

Generally speaking, you can find support for almost any position in the Bible. That's why it's so popular. People don't get their beliefs from the Bible, they bring their beliefs to the Bible and find affirmation.

Click to expand...

That's not true. For example, I have no personal beliefs regarding homosexuality but know that the Bible says it is wrong. If I was an atheist or w/e then I'd not believe such.

Vox said:

Not according to Jesus.

His teaching of getting to heaven by works of charity could not be more clear.

Saul/Paul's complex new religion of "Christianity" was founded on well-known Pagan concepts to fleece the Gentiles. Jesus taught Jewish concepts--faith without works is dead.

S/Paul taught free ride by "Grace." It made him a rich religious charlatan because his free ride was easy.

Jesus and Saul/Paul's teachings were diametrically opposed.

Click to expand...

The first time you said this I thought maybe you misspoke. Do you mean to say that works alone will do the trick?

My understanding is that works alone are meaningless. You have to actually BE a Christian/believer, of which works are a part, but actually being a Christian/believer means what you do when no one is looking.

Vox said:

Jesus taught Jewish concepts--faith without works is dead.

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Jesus didn't say that.

Fishking said:

That's not true. For example, I have no personal beliefs regarding homosexuality but know that the Bible says it is wrong. If I was an atheist or w/e then I'd not believe such.

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Leviticus says a lot of things that Christians ignore, but they all stand by the passage about homosexuality. The other place where homosexuality is proscribed is in the Epistles of Paul, letters written by a poor old sinner to other sinners, containing his opinions on a variety of subjects.

Grand Mal said:

Generally speaking, you can find support for almost any position in the Bible.

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Not really. People attempt sometimes to argue that the Bible recording an event is the equivalent of giving moral approval to it, but the Bible's moral message is fairly clear and consistent on a variety of issues.

CrabCake said:

Vox said:

faith without works is dead.

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Jesus didn't say that.

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The New Testament, which is God-breathed and guided by the Holy Spirit, who shares Godhood with Jesus in the Trinity, did.