Bible question: Teaching a man to fish...

cpwill · Aug 30, 2016

Vox said:
The fatal flaw in this type of "thinking" is that nobody can reliably tell us which poor are "deserving" and which are not......and blaming parents has the same problem.

From a national perspective, from a policy perspective, no, not really - certainly not with the kind of reliability that you get from living in a local community, which is what those rules were written for. You can get close(r) with things like targeted work requirements, drug testing, and the like.

Which is why trying to conflate them with policies designed for state imposition over 330 million people is problematic from the get-go, before you decide to ignore those portions designed to put accountability into the system.

The proper response is simply "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Sure. But loving my neighbor does not mean enabling self-destructive behavior simply because it has thus far partially destroyed him.

But you cut out the rest of my post, and then didn't quote me, so I wouldn't get a notification. Why?

cpwill · Aug 30, 2016

CrabCake said:
Do a quick study on the "sola fide" doctrine; that is the proper name for the "grace only" doctrine you are describing. You will see that it wasn't developed until the 1500s. No one from Paul's time believed it.

Paul clearly did. So did the author of Hebrews.

The writings of Pliny the Younger prove that early Christians were focused on sanctification and not just a free ride.

Sola Fide is a doctrine of salvation, which you are conflating here with sanctification. The two are distinct.

Vox said:
I'm not talking about persecution (which was political) I'm talking about the freedom to sin and still get to a "Heaven," which was what enticed the Gentiles and made Paul a rich man.

:lol: such a rich man that he lived in the open, walking from town to town, being occasionally beaten, starved, and imprisoned, earned his own keep by picking up odd jobs everywhere he went (the only church I can think of that ever supported him in any fashion was that Philippi occasionally helped support him in proselytizing to other Greek cities), and was executed a prisoner.

1 Cor 9 said:
Does not the Law say the same? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? 10 Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. 11 If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more?

Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? 14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

15 But I have made no use of any of these rights, nor am I writing these things to secure any such provision. For I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of my ground for boasting. 16 For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. 18 What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

Acts 18 said:
After this Paul[a] left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them, 3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade.

Acts 20 said:
“You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the first day that I set foot in Asia, 19 serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews; 20 how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by[c] the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me.... 32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel. 34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. 35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

2 Thess 3 said:
6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.

Yeah :roll: Paul was really in it for the money.

Of all the accusations against the Apostles, the idea that they were in it for all the wealth and power is easily the most illiterate, ahistorical, and ridiculous.

tosca1 · Aug 30, 2016

Grand Mal said:
Generally speaking, you can find support for almost any position in the Bible.

That's a good argument that lends support to the Bible as being God-breathed.

Despite having come from all walks of life, and from varying time-lines, I'd say the authors of the Bible had really managed to have compiled their works in a book that had transcended time, and still speaks to people. Even today.
It's relevancy has been made to endure. It is universal - because it's given to all mankind.

How could the authors have accomplished such a feat, if not for God?

That's why the Bible is described too as a living Book. It speaks to individuals, and one can find enlightenment, or support, or comfort......depending on one's situation.

tosca1 · Aug 30, 2016

Vox said:
Not according to Jesus.

His teaching of getting to heaven by works of charity could not be more clear.

When one has accepted Christ and has faith in Him - your works will reflect Christ in you.

If you have Christ in you, your charitable acts will follow. Thus you're not guaranteed heaven by doing charity alone.
You have to have Christ. He is the Door.

Vox · Aug 30, 2016

cpwill said:
From a national perspective, from a policy perspective, no, not really - certainly not with the kind of reliability that you get from living in a local community, which is what those rules were written for.

So ignorant bigots should decide who gets welfare just because they live near the person who needs the help?

Vox · Aug 30, 2016

I made the point that we last hear of the rich religious charlatan Saul/Paul living in his own fine house in Rome.......with his friends the Romans.

cpwill said:

such a rich man that he lived in the open, walking from town to town, being occasionally beaten, starved, and imprisoned, earned his own keep by picking up odd jobs everywhere he went (the only church I can think of that ever supported him in any fashion was that Philippi occasionally helped support him in proselytizing to other Greek cities), and was executed a prisoner.

Who told you that? What is the origin of that story?

Think about it.

ONLY the liar himself and his partner in crime, Luke,

No other sources.

Beginning to get it now?

Vox · Aug 30, 2016

tosca1 said:
When one has accepted Christ and has faith in Him - your works will reflect Christ in you.

If you have Christ in you, your charitable acts will follow. Thus you're not guaranteed heaven by doing charity alone.
You have to have Christ. He is the Door.

There is no such thing as "Christ."

It is a false construct invented by a religious charlatan known as Saul/Paul.

He created a new religion based on the stories about Jesus and using Pagan concepts such as vicarious redemption, virgin birth and ritual symbolic cannibalism.

The Gentiles loved it.....as he knew they would.

He cashed in on it just like the T.V. evangelists of today.

And you're still falling for it.

:mrgreen:

Vox · Aug 30, 2016

“You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the first day that I set foot in Asia, 19 serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews; 20 how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by[c] the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me.... 32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel. 34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. 35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

Click to expand...

cpwill said:

Yeah Paul was really in it for the money.

Of all the accusations against the Apostles, the idea that they were in it for all the wealth and power is easily the most illiterate, ahistorical, and ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Historical??? Whose history have you read?

Who told you that? What is the origin of the expansive stories of Saul/Paul's poverty, great sacrifice and exploits?

Think about it. ("I did this, I did that, I am great.") Who SAID all that???

ONLY the liar himself and his partner in crime, Luke,

No other sources.

Beginning to get it now?

cpwill · Aug 30, 2016

Vox said:
So ignorant bigots should decide who gets welfare just because they live near the person who needs the help?

My proposal takes advantage of Christian wisdom, but doesn't conform to the rules of Church Giving. Because a Government is not the Church, and if you are going to try to claim that government welfare policy is going to import "What the Bible Teaches, then you have to try to have government do things it is ill-equipped to do. A Church is capable of doing things like saying "Well, Rachel and the kids are having tough times because Tim ran out on them, but Steve is a drunk, and will use anything we give him to buy cheap whiskey".

But that's an interesting implicit assumption in your question. Please tell me about how you came to the conclusion that people who live in poor areas are ignorant bigots.

Vox · Aug 30, 2016

What we all have to keep in mind here is really simple......

1. The real Jesus was Jesus of Nazareth. His last name was not "Christ."

2. Jesus "Christ" was invented by a lying religious charlatan known as Paul (AKA Saul of Tarsus) who never knew Jesus or his real disciples.

tosca1 · Aug 30, 2016

Vox said:
There is no such thing as "Christ."

It is a false construct invented by a religious charlatan known as Saul/Paul.

He created a new religion based on the stories about Jesus and using Pagan concepts such as vicarious redemption, virgin birth and ritual symbolic cannibalism.

The Gentiles loved it.....as he knew they would.

He cashed in on it just like the T.V. evangelists of today.

And you're still falling for it.

:mrgreen:

I was responding to your statement:

Vox said:
Jesus clearly stated that you get to Heaven by acts of Charity. (His story of the Good Samaritan was in response to the question of how you get to Heaven.)

I was explaining how that ties up with acceptance of Jesus (Faith).

John 10
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

John 14
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

A lot of atheists do charitable works - according to those verses, unless they come to Christ, that doesn't mean they'll go to heaven. Charity doesn't always have to be about money. It can be whatever you can give - time, patience, comfort etc..,

Charity has to do with caring. It is associated with love of your neighbor.
If one gives, and yet not care for the person at all.....I don't think it can be called "charity" by which Jesus means it.

Vox · Aug 30, 2016

cpwill said:
But that's an interesting implicit assumption in your question. Please tell me about how you came to the conclusion that people who live in poor areas are ignorant bigots.

That's a conclusion YOU jumped to.

Those who oppress the poor are ignorant bigots.

THAT is what I actually SAID.

Vox · Aug 30, 2016

tosca1 said:
I was responding to your statement:

I was explaining how that ties up with acceptance of Jesus (Faith).

John 10
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

John 14
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

All that was written 50 years later by who??????

The FOLLOWERS of Saul/Paul (and edited and MODIFIED for 200 years after that) AND.......even THEN it fails to mention Saul/Paul's "Christ" but just references the teaching of Jesus.

Logicman · Aug 30, 2016

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." - Matthew 6:16

Matthew 26:63-64 - And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The word 'Christ' means an anointed one. There are many 'anointed ones' in the Bible, but like where there are many sons of man but only ONE UNIQUE SON OF MAN (Daniel 7:13-14), there is one very special anointed individual, and his name is Jesus, and he is the Christ. Jesus confessed he was the Messiah (the Christ, the anointed one) in John chapter 4:

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

Then later, in John 8:24, Jesus said, "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins." Who did Jesus claim to be? God (John 8:58), and the Messiah - the Christ, the anointed one (John 4:25-26).

Jesus is Lord!

cpwill · Aug 30, 2016

Vox said:
I made the point that we last hear of the rich religious charlatan Saul/Paul living in his own fine house in Rome.......with his friends the Romans.

cpwill said:

Who told you that? What is the origin of that story?

Think about it.

ONLY the liar himself and his partner in crime, Luke,

No other sources.

:shrug: That is incorrect. Peter, for example, confirmed not only the proselytizing mission, but the writings of Paul as Scripture.

2 Peter 3 said:
14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures...

Secondly, Luke and Paul were writing here to the early Christian Church around the Mediterranean, about their time with them - the Early Church to whom Paul wrote would have known if what he was saying was false, as would have the Early Church using Luke/Acts. They instead kept and confirmed those accounts.

Whereas your claim is entirely without basis, except, as near as I can tell, your own imagination.

There is no such thing as "Christ."

It is a false construct invented by a religious charlatan known as Saul/Paul.

:lol:

Gospel of Mark: The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God
Gospel of Matthew: The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham
Gospel of John: For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side,[f] he has made him known.

Epistle of Peter: But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
Epistle of John: if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Epistle of James: James, a servant[a] of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings.
Epistle to the Hebrews: For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end
Revelations: The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

cpwill · Aug 30, 2016

Vox said:
That's a conclusion YOU jumped to.

No, that's an assumption inherent in your argument. I pointed out that the Early Christian Church required the discernment of the community to determine who in them was deserving poor or not, along provided guidelines. Your response was to ask why we should trust ignorant bigots, a question which carries with it the implied assumption that those in community with poor individuals were ignorant bigots, whose judgment can therefore not be trusted.

But I like how - again - you cut out the rest of my post that you don't want to deal with. Mostly because it is very, very, very obvious.

Those who oppress the poor are ignorant bigots.

Not necessarily. Those who oppress the poor can be ignorant bigots, ignorant non-bigots, educated bigots, or educated non-bigots.

THAT is what I actually SAID.

Actually, no, what you said was:

Vox said:
cpwill said:

From a national perspective, from a policy perspective, no, not really - certainly not with the kind of reliability that you get from living in a local community, which is what those rules were written for.

Click to expand...

So ignorant bigots should decide who gets welfare just because they live near the person who needs the help?

The word "oppress" does not appear anywhere in that post, or in your preceding post in the conversation, or in your post preceding that one.

cpwill · Aug 30, 2016

Vox said:
All that was written 50 years later by who?

Well, all four of the Gospels were written separately, though the latter three (Matthew, Luke, and John) had the ability to reference earlier texts. Only Luke could be plausibly accused of Pauline influence, though Luke did his own investigation and used non-Pauline sources (such as Mary). As demonstrated, however, not only did all of the Gospels confirm that Jesus was the Christ, so did the other Epistle writers and the author of Revelations.

cpwill · Aug 30, 2016

Vox said:
I made the point that we last hear of the rich religious charlatan Saul/Paul living in his own fine house in Rome.......with his friends the Romans.

Now that's interesting. Where did you get that from?

Was it a reputable source?

Vox · Aug 30, 2016

Logicman said:
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." - Matthew 6:16

Matthew 26:63-64 - And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The word 'Christ' means an anointed one. There are many 'anointed ones' in the Bible, but like where there are many sons of man but only ONE UNIQUE SON OF MAN (Daniel 7:13-14), there is one very special anointed individual, and his name is Jesus, and he is the Christ. Jesus confessed he was the Messiah (the Christ, the anointed one) in John chapter 4:

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

Then later, in John 8:24, Jesus said, "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins." Who did Jesus claim to be? God (John 8:58), and the Messiah - the Christ, the anointed one (John 4:25-26).

Jesus is Lord!

As I said before......Jesus may be called "Lord" if you so desire......but not "Christ."

Because.......all that you quote was written many years later by who??????

The FOLLOWERS of Saul/Paul (and edited and MODIFIED for 200 years after that).

Thus it may appear to the uninitiated that the fictions of Saul/Paul were accepted by the TRUE disciples of Jesus.

In reality they got along about as well as the Republicans and the Democrats.

cpwill · Aug 30, 2016

Vox said:
As I said before......Jesus may be called "Lord" if you so desire......but not "Christ."

Because.......all that you quote was written many years later by who?????

Who?

Well:

Gospel of Mark: The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God
Gospel of Matthew: The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham
Gospel of John: For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side,[f] he has made him known.

Epistle of Peter: But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
Epistle of John: if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Epistle of James: James, a servant[a] of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings.
Epistle to the Hebrews: For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end
Revelations: The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

The entirety of the New Testament and the Early Church witnesses to Jesus Christ. The idea that he was something else was the source of a series of heresies that arose starting in the second and third centuries.

Fearandloathing · Aug 30, 2016

tosca1 said:
That's a good argument that lends support to the Bible as being God-breathed.

Despite having come from all walks of life, and from varying time-lines, I'd say the authors of the Bible had really managed to have compiled their works in a book that had transcended time, and still speaks to people. Even today.
It's relevancy has been made to endure. It is universal - because it's given to all mankind.

How could the authors have accomplished such a feat, if not for God?

That's why the Bible is described too as a living Book. It speaks to individuals, and one can find enlightenment, or support, or comfort......depending on one's situation.

I can't bold or thanks, but the last line is excellent and what I find "week end" Christians miss. This is why we can't cherry pick.

The Bible is NOT a "book", it is a library of several books, many of which tell the same story a different way. It seems to never occur to anyone why a library would have so many different accounts of God. As I was told, "the words are poetry and to be treated as such, but to know the Bible is to know and understand the themes. We see Matthew, Make, Luke and John as journalists reporting events like a shallow TV news story, being spoon fed the basics. Each was s talented author, and wrote in themes pertaining to their station. Luke was a doctor and a Hebrew, his story covers what he thought to be important as did Mark and Matthew. John, however, pays scant attention to some of the actions, dismisses the trivial to paint a beautiful story with subtle imagery, and meaning. It's too much to take in, but it is best seen in the similarities between the scene where Peter denies Christ as the **** crows, and the last scene on the beach at Galilee where Jesus give his one and ONLY command: "love one another."

Vox · Aug 30, 2016

cpwill said:
Who?

Well:

Gospel of Mark: The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God
Gospel of Matthew: The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham
Gospel of John: For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side,[f] he has made him known.

Epistle of Peter: But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
Epistle of John: if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Epistle of James: James, a servant[a] of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings.
Epistle to the Hebrews: For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end
Revelations: The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

The entirety of the New Testament and the Early Church witnesses to Jesus Christ. The idea that he was something else was the source of a series of heresies that arose starting in the second and third centuries.

No. Every source above was written many years later by who AGAIN??????

The FOLLOWERS of Saul/Paul (and edited and MODIFIED for 200 years after that).

All of it stems from the original deceptions of Saul/Paul.

CrabCake · Aug 30, 2016

cpwill said:
I mean that

those who spend their time arguing that Christianity demands that we have a public social safety net

Which is to say, those who spend their time arguing that Christianity demands that we have certain levels of state-provided public safety nets, and draw upon biblical references of caring for the poor to make those arguments

aren't really interested in the work and character requirements in the New Testament.

Generally try to avoid the fact that those references are also fairly clear on the division between what used to be called "the deserving poor" and those who are poor due to sloth, and other decisions made through problematic moral character.

If, for example, you want to predict today which children will be most likely to end up poor, the single best question (statistically) that you can ask is: "Are their parents married?" It's not structural societal injustices of oppressive weight or anything of that nonsense - it's whether or not your parents teach you how to stick to a marriage.

No, I think that he ignores the New Testament restrictions on recipients of Church Aid when he tries to conflate it with government wealth transfers.

I have read Jim Wallis. I have never seen him argue to let those who are able bodied but perennially choose to do without work should be allowed to starve until they feel motivated enough to get a job (2 Thess 3:10). I have never seen him argue that we should only let elderly widows "onto the rolls", and/or that we should send the poor first to their families, and expect their families to do something about it (1 Tim 5:4). I have never heard or read Jim Wallis argue for the imposition of a character test (1 Tim 5:10). I have never seen Jim Wallis say that we should conduct as a matter of public policy wealth transfers to the poor which are funded by whatever percentage of their income people come in their heart to believe that they should pay (2 Cor 9:7). I have only ever seen him argue for wealth redistribution "because that's what the bible preaches" :roll: That is not what the Bible preaches.

I'm sure Wallis means well. But theologically I categorize him with the Joel Olsteens of this world.

I see. The problem with what you're saying is that we can best translate it this way: "people who believe the bible supports social justice have a different opinion than I do on what the bible really says".

cpwill · Aug 30, 2016

CrabCake said:
I see. The problem with what you're saying is that we can best translate it this way: "people who believe the bible supports social justice have a different opinion than I do on what the bible really says".

No. It is "people who claim that we should politically support wealth transfer programs because that's what Christianity teaches are choosing to ignore what Christianity actually teaches when they refuse to address or bring in what Christianity actually teaches.

You can claim that we should have a large, blanket redistributive safety net. I've made such an argument repeatedly, in a variety of formats. And you can claim that the State redistributive model should or does model itself on that which is described in the Bible. You just can't do both.

CrabCake · Aug 30, 2016

cpwill said:
Paul clearly did. So did the author of Hebrews.

That is simply incorrect. That view arose in the 1500s which is why you never find any texts from: Aquinas, the Cappadocian Fathers, Ignatius, or anyone else of note on the topic. This doctrine was simply unheard of until Martin Luther developed it in the 1500s. This is historical fact.

I challenge you to provide any bible commentary or theological work that addresses this doctrine from prior to 1500. Feel free to dip into any of the works of the first millennium and a half of Christianity. It's all on the table. You won't find anything. Sola Fide dates back to Martin Luther and no earlier. Prior to that, no one interpreted Paul (or Hebrews, or anything else in the bible) in that way.

I'm not saying that doctrine is wrong or biblically unsupported; in fact, I actually believe this doctrine to be correct and I understand that the foundation for it is found in the bible. But the fact remains it is a doctrine that was developed by Martin Luther in the 1500s as a response to what was going on in the Catholic church at the time.

cpwill said:
Sola Fide is a doctrine of salvation, which you are conflating here with sanctification. The two are distinct.

I'm not conflating them. I specifically used the term sanctification in my post. I am pointing out that the idea that Paul's views caught on because they provided an easy path to heaven doesn't jive with the historical evidence. Historical evidence shows that the Christian movement started by Paul and the apostles was heavily focused on sanctification and expected life change. Thus it doesn't make sense that such a movement caught on because it was easy and didn't require you to change your life.

Bible question: Teaching a man to fish...

cpwill

cpwill

tosca1

tosca1

Vox

Voice and Wisdom of God

Vox

Voice and Wisdom of God

Vox

Voice and Wisdom of God

Vox

Voice and Wisdom of God

cpwill

Vox

Voice and Wisdom of God

tosca1

Vox

Voice and Wisdom of God

Vox

Voice and Wisdom of God

Logicman

cpwill

cpwill

cpwill

cpwill

Vox

Voice and Wisdom of God

cpwill

Fearandloathing

How long is now?

Vox

Voice and Wisdom of God

CrabCake

cpwill

CrabCake