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Workers Will Soon Enter the Tomb of Jesus

D_NATURED said:
I think you missed the point entirely. Why is it so important to people who claim faith (ie., belief without proof) that there be proof? They contradict their own faith with the constant pretense of scholarship. They're putting on a show that hasn't had an intermission in two thousand years and the audience is still lapping it up.

My favorite scene is where the faithful continually attempt to throw the entire planet into war and then blame their invisible, abstract entity for doing so. He predicted it and it happened, He must be real.

The irony of god having to work through men is that we cease to differentiate our actions from His when we imagine that we are His vessels. But, none of the faithful seem to care about this conundrum, about how acts of base, human hatred gets re-imagined as divine justice. But, faith is famously endowed with a narcotic effect that can numb the mind and conscience of the most (especially the most) dedicated believers.

The problem with inspiration based upon a violent anachronistic myth is that it inspires too many to be inhuman. When you no longer care about humans and the earth, that's how you know you've transcended and are truly a spiritual being.
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I didn't miss it. I ignored it because it's clear you want to use this thread to attack religion in general. This is about viewing history and the possible inspiration it might effect in some who participate. Is this really the tomb of Jesus? Doesn't matter. Jesus could have been laid in a tomb in Selma, AL, and it wouldn't make any difference at all. I have no interest at all in changing your view of religion and it's impact on humanity. If you find inspiration in gazing at the heavens, and many do for various reasons, it's fine with me. I simply allow that people should take whatever positive inspiration that they can find, where they find it. Believing or not, you should have the grace to do the same.
 
humbolt said:
I didn't miss it. I ignored it because it's clear you want to use this thread to attack religion in general. This is about viewing history and the possible inspiration it might effect in some who participate. Is this really the tomb of Jesus? Doesn't matter. Jesus could have been laid in a tomb in Selma, AL, and it wouldn't make any difference at all. I have no interest at all in changing your view of religion and it's impact on humanity. If you find inspiration in gazing at the heavens, and many do for various reasons, it's fine with me. I simply allow that people should take whatever positive inspiration that they can find, where they find it. Believing or not, you should have the grace to do the same.
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Fine, you don't care if it's real or not. That's exactly what I thought. If inspiration alone and not murder and misogyny were religion's fingerprint, you might have a point. As it stands, your statement here is in blissful apathy to what a divisive influence faith has been and continues to be in this world.

Most people, most HONEST people, will agree that if the world is to ever come together in peace, humans will have to put their religions aside. How's that for inspiring?
 
If the world ever "comes together," it will be because we have learned to love one another the way we are loved.
 
D_NATURED said:
Fine, you don't care if it's real or not. That's exactly what I thought. If inspiration alone and not murder and misogyny were religion's fingerprint, you might have a point. As it stands, your statement here is in blissful apathy to what a divisive influence faith has been and continues to be in this world.

Most people, most HONEST people, will agree that if the world is to ever come together in peace, humans will have to put their religions aside. How's that for inspiring?
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Who, in the world seriously wants to come together "in peace"? That's not what the world really wants. War is just too "profitable". The world is broken....always has been.
 
D_NATURED said:
Fine, you don't care if it's real or not. That's exactly what I thought. If inspiration alone and not murder and misogyny were religion's fingerprint, you might have a point. As it stands, your statement here is in blissful apathy to what a divisive influence faith has been and continues to be in this world.
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Religion can be divisive. Faith generally isn't. By its very nature, faith itself is a uniquely individual and personal experience. While common elements of faith can be organized into a religion, religion and faith are not the same. Failure to make such essential distinctions could lead to where you seem to live.

Most people, most HONEST people, will agree that if the world is to ever come together in peace, humans will have to put their religions aside. How's that for inspiring?
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So it's blissful ignorance as opposed to honesty. You see only real things and those expressing some spiritual faith are deluded and dishonest, willfully participating in murder and misogyny. I'm okay with what you believe. You are free to believe it. Now, if you could allow others that same freedom we'd be getting somewhere. As it is, progress toward acceptance of others and what they believe seems a dim prospect.
 
FluffyNinja said:
Who, in the world seriously wants to come together "in peace"? That's not what the world really wants. War is just too "profitable". The world is broken....always has been.
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Uhhh....I would like to see some peace. However, Islam, the religion of peace and Jesus, the prince of peace, are both so incompatible with the actual definition of the word "peace" as to prove that they don't know what the word really means. I think the kind of peace that dogma provides is the peace that comes in knowing that the people you're killing deserved it. That's all.

While I appreciate your defeatism, as a parallel to the abrahamic snuff film scenario, I still disagree that it's right.
 
humbolt said:
Religion can be divisive. Faith generally isn't. By its very nature, faith itself is a uniquely individual and personal experience. While common elements of faith can be organized into a religion, religion and faith are not the same. Failure to make such essential distinctions could lead to where you seem to live.
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No, I live on Earth, the planet where ninety percent of the people believe in sky men and they are constantly killing each other. So, whatever power faith has for the individual, when those individuals come together, they are praying and murdering.


So it's blissful ignorance as opposed to honesty. You see only real things and those expressing some spiritual faith are deluded and dishonest, willfully participating in murder and misogyny. I'm okay with what you believe. You are free to believe it. Now, if you could allow others that same freedom we'd be getting somewhere. As it is, progress toward acceptance of others and what they believe seems a dim prospect.
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So, I should sacrifice my own morality to maintain a false civility with those who have none. Got it.
 
D_NATURED said:
Uhhh....I would like to see some peace. However, Islam, the religion of peace and Jesus, the prince of peace, are both so incompatible with the actual definition of the word "peace" as to prove that they don't know what the word really means. I think the kind of peace that dogma provides is the peace that comes in knowing that the people you're killing deserved it. That's all.

While I appreciate your defeatism, as a parallel to the abrahamic snuff film scenario, I still disagree that it's right.
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Yeah....I'd like to see peace as well; however, since the history of civilization our individual idealism has never translated into international policy . Defeatism it may be...but anyone is more than welcome to prove me wrong with historic evidence if they can. Peace has never been sustainable. It goes against the very fabric of human nature.

Even true Christians should know better. Christ himself said in Matthew 10:34....
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
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On a side note, while I do appreciate your idealism.....it just doesn't translate into reality.
 
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D_NATURED said:
No, I live on Earth, the planet where ninety percent of the people believe in sky men and they are constantly killing each other. So, whatever power faith has for the individual, when those individuals come together, they are praying and murdering.
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Please don't be obtuse. We all know that large numbers of people need not come together in the name of a religion to kill one another en masse. Religion, sadly, has too often simply become a tool or an excuse; a means to an end for the power-hungry. Manuscripts, alone are quite harmless, as is faith......its when you mix in our flawed human nature that we so often get disastrous results.
 
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FluffyNinja said:
Who, in the world seriously wants to come together "in peace"? That's not what the world really wants. War is just too "profitable". The world is broken....always has been.
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The Muslims make war, how much profit are they making?
 
D_NATURED said:
No, I live on Earth, the planet where ninety percent of the people believe in sky men and they are constantly killing each other. So, whatever power faith has for the individual, when those individuals come together, they are praying and murdering.
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What? I haven't murdered anybody, and I don't personally know anyone else who has. The vast and overwhelming majority of people on the planet are not murderers. Religion is a human construct, and it's possible to find every element of the human heart in religion somewhere. Faith is not the same creature at all.

So, I should sacrifice my own morality to maintain a false civility with those who have none. Got it.
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Well, if it's a false civility, perhaps your morality isn't quite what you think it is. I imagine we've all had such moments. I know I have.
 
FluffyNinja said:
Sure. We know the Saudis don't do anything for profit.:lol:
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Well there's a pretty large leap.

They make profit selling oil. That doesn't mean literally all of their actions are motivated by profit, does it?
 
Deuce said:
Well there's a pretty large leap.

They make profit selling oil. That doesn't mean literally all of their actions are motivated by profit, does it?
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Profit doesn't always necessarily come in the form of dollars. Any nation acts based on what they feel profits them most. Or at least that's what they should do.
 
Van Basten said:
Holiest shrine in Christendom?

Meh.

As a Christian, I don't think Christians should be fawning over artifacts or locations. It's so not biblical and borders on idolatry.
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Well, if you are a sect of Christianity that sees shrines as idolatry then you really don't move the needle and you opinion doesn't change the statement.
 
FluffyNinja said:
Even true Christians should know better. Christ himself said in Matthew 10:34.... "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
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You're going to need to read that whole passage to get the context.

Have No Fear

26 “So have no fear of them, ifor nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on jthe housetops. 28 And kdo not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him lwho can destroy both soul and body in hell.7 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?8 And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But meven the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; nyou are of more value than many sparrows. 32 oSo everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but pwhoever denies me before men, qI also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Not Peace, but a Sword

34 r“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. sI have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 rFor I have come tto set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 uAnd a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 vWhoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And wwhoever does not take his cross and xfollow me is not worthy of me. 39 yWhoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Rewards

40 z“Whoever receives you receives me, and awhoever receives me receives him who sent me. 41 bThe one who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and the one who receives a righteous person because he is a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And cwhoever gives one of dthese little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.”
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He is not talking about actual swords, just that God desires his followers love him above all else. The battle he talks about is between life on Earth and ever lasting life. Christianity had just been created within that room, and there would be much strife, even within families, when a person converted to following Christ's teachings among their families who held different beliefs.
 
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jmotivator said:
You're going to need to read that whole passage to get the context.



He is not talking about actual swords, just that God desires his followers love him above all else. The battle he talks about is between life on Earth and ever lasting life. Christianity had just been created within that room, and there would be much strife, even within families, when a person converted to following Christ's teachings among their families who held different beliefs.
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yes, I'm well aware of the connotation, but thanks for the Biblical commentary. The point was Christ obviously came to divide......not to unite people. To think otherwise is to disavow Christ's Gospel.

"Wheat from the chaff"....."The shepherd knows His sheep and His sheep know Him...", "Narrow is the gate and difficult the path that leads to Life, and few will find it." and so forth.
 
FluffyNinja said:
yes, I'm well aware of the connotation, but thanks for the Biblical commentary. The point was Christ obviously came to divide......not to unite people. To think otherwise is to disavow Christ's Gospel.

"Wheat from the chaff"....."The shepherd knows His sheep and His sheep know Him...", "Narrow is the gate and difficult the path that leads to Life, and few will find it." and so forth.
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He came to unite the world in God's love. Jesus taught us to love everyone regardless of how we feel about their own devotion to God. Given free will there will always be those who take another path and take offense to God's teachings. God doesn't divide, we do.
 
jmotivator said:
He came to unite the world in God's love. Jesus taught us to love everyone regardless of how we feel about their own devotion to God. Given free will there will always be those who take another path and take offense to God's teachings. God doesn't divide, we do.
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We must not be reading from the same Word of God then. Jesus came to offer Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. He came to take the punishment for our offenses. My God is omnipotent...if it was truly His desire to unite all in love, he could have done so at any time he pleased. We are here to serve His glory, given free will to choose the path of righteousness and obedience or the path of separation........and God DOES INDEED divide us....from beginning to final judgment. Just being obedient to His will is divisive......the lives and deaths of the disciples and Paul the Apostle are evidence of this. Only those who prove faithful and who are obedient to His will and commandments are united in love......not ALL of humanity. If you choose not to see this, I don't know what else to say.
 
FluffyNinja said:
We must not be reading from the same Word of God then. Jesus came to offer Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. He came to take the punishment for our offenses. My God is omnipotent...if it was truly His desire to unite all in love, he could have done so at any time he pleased. We are here to serve His glory, given free will to choose the path of righteousness and obedience or the path of separation........and God DOES INDEED divide us....from beginning to final judgment. Just being obedient to His will is divisive......the lives and deaths of the disciples and Paul the Apostle are evidence of this. Only those who prove faithful and who are obedient to His will and commandments are united in love......not ALL of humanity. If you choose not to see this, I don't know what else to say.
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Again, God doesn't divide. All are welcome. Many choose to separate themselves from God's grace, but that isn't God doing the dividing.
 
jmotivator said:
Again, God doesn't divide. All are welcome. Many choose to separate themselves from God's grace, but that isn't God doing the dividing.
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God sets the standards for dividing His people, not man....sorry, but you are wrong.

Luke 3:17
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Zephaniah 2:2
Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

Psalms 1:4
The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Job 21:18
They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.

Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
 
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